|
Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 20, 2014 16:38:43 GMT -5
I think like, with pop culture, it's all small things building to a big thing, if you get me. And like, people brought up cherry picking, I'm trying to figure out what is meant by that, because some of the stuff people said about her being wrong has been shown to be wrong themselves, with the Zelda stuff, and Spelunky, and Krystal from Dinosaur planet. But it could be her looking at bad examples in gaming, but at the end of her videos, she contrasts that with games where it's done well, so it's not like she's just shitting all over the video game industry and seeing, you pigs, f*** you.
All the bad tropes involving women are small. One bee sting hurts, but a hundred can do some major damage.
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Jul 20, 2014 16:43:58 GMT -5
Pop culture doesn't shape societal biases or necessarily create new ones; however, pop culture is a reflection of the values of the culture that creates it, and thus can reinforce preexisting biases or give them a larger platform upon which they may be reaffirmed. Thus, challenging the inherent biases that inform popular culture offers a chance to create awareness of the larger structures that create things like gender inequality, ethnic tension, economic injustice, etc. It absolutely is capable of shaping societal viewpoints on important subjects. If it wasn't, then every author, painter, filmmaker, musician, sculptor, storyteller, composer, director, actor and producer has wasted their lives. Are there going to be other factors at play? Of course, but to deny that these things have any influence on what a person thinks or how they view the world is just delusional at this point. We know it does, it won't change the world in a week, but it can and does affect people's viewpoints.
|
|
Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,933
|
Post by Sephiroth on Jul 20, 2014 16:45:10 GMT -5
Kind of what I meant. Not to denigrate, but when it comes to the debate about gender equality and the ever changing role of women in society, I think there are more genuinely pressing areas where it can be applied than pop culture at large. But for some reason, those more pressing areas do not quite generate the same amount of press that a critique of pop culture does. Heck, just ask the psychiatrist who nearly killed the comic book industry by claiming it brainwashed children. You act as though the debate is only in pop culture, it's not. But if you ignore how entertainment treats gender, then you're going to miss an important part of how you influence societal views. I don't always agree with how entertainment treats gender, but I don't take it as a completely accurate measure of the real role women play either. Lucille Ball was a powerhouse at a time when all women, including her tv persona, were portrayed as nothing but housewives.
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Jul 20, 2014 16:49:09 GMT -5
You act as though the debate is only in pop culture, it's not. But if you ignore how entertainment treats gender, then you're going to miss an important part of how you influence societal views. I don't always agree with how entertainment treats gender, but I don't take it as a completely accurate measure of the real role women play either. Lucille Ball was a powerhouse at a time when all women, including her tv persona, were portrayed as nothing but housewives. No one is saying real world women wear chainmail bikinis while they slay dragons in Azeroth either, but you're arguing that it's not worth discussing how entertainment portrays women and that it has no effect at how someone might view the world, and that's just factually wrong. No one is saying videogames are a picture perfect representation of reality, but we are shaped at least to some degree by our entertainment, whether we want to admit it or not. Besides that, women weren't portrayed only as housewives at that time, but they were portrayed in roles that society deemed acceptable. Lucille Ball's career had her in plenty more roles than just housewife, and Lucy Ricardo was a woman who wanted to break into show-business, with acting was one of the few professions that women and men could both do, for obvious reasons. So really... I just don't get what point you're trying to make. The fact that she was an actress doesn't mean that society treated females equally.
|
|
Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,933
|
Post by Sephiroth on Jul 20, 2014 16:59:26 GMT -5
I don't always agree with how entertainment treats gender, but I don't take it as a completely accurate measure of the real role women play either. Lucille Ball was a powerhouse at a time when all women, including her tv persona, were portrayed as nothing but housewives. And? No one is saying real world women wear chainmail bikinis while they slay dragons in Azeroth either, but you're arguing that it's not worth discussing how entertainment portrays women and saying it has no effect at how someone might view reality, and that's just factually wrong. It most certainly can. However, I myself find certain examples to be so fantastical that I think it stretches the boundaries of believability to argue that it influences human behavior, particularly in the extreme manner often associated with them. Case in point-I certainly believe that people who play violent video games can be probe to having a shorter temper or getting worked up more easily than someone who does not, but no way do I believe that playing Doom or Grand Theft Auto somehow brainwashed people into becoming murderers. In this particular case, I do share concerns about the sexualized objectification of women in various media, including video games, but I feel she picked some of the sillier examples to use for reference.
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Jul 20, 2014 17:06:22 GMT -5
And? No one is saying real world women wear chainmail bikinis while they slay dragons in Azeroth either, but you're arguing that it's not worth discussing how entertainment portrays women and saying it has no effect at how someone might view reality, and that's just factually wrong. It most certainly can. However, I myself find certain examples to be so fantastical that I think it stretches the boundaries of believability to argue that it influences human behavior, particularly in the extreme manner often associated with them. Case in point-I certainly believe that people who play violent video games can be probe to having a shorter temper or getting worked up more easily than someone who does not, but no way do I believe that playing Doom or Grand Theft Auto somehow brainwashed people into becoming murderers. In this particular case, I do share concerns about the sexualized objectification of women in various media, including video games, but I feel she picked some of the sillier examples to use for reference. No one is going the brainwashing route here, nor is Sarkeesian, but you're going the complete opposite way and saying that it shouldn't be discussed at all. If media can influence people's viewpoint on the world, and you admit that it can, then why is discussing how it portrays them completely off-limits and unimportant? That's where I really don't get your point, because some people are hysterical about something, no discussion should be made about it? If that were the case, no one would discuss anything because there are always lunatics screaming nonsense on any subject. Even the people who criticize her points make more inaccurate statements about her than what she makes.
|
|
Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,933
|
Post by Sephiroth on Jul 20, 2014 17:08:40 GMT -5
It most certainly can. However, I myself find certain examples to be so fantastical that I think it stretches the boundaries of believability to argue that it influences human behavior, particularly in the extreme manner often associated with them. Case in point-I certainly believe that people who play violent video games can be probe to having a shorter temper or getting worked up more easily than someone who does not, but no way do I believe that playing Doom or Grand Theft Auto somehow brainwashed people into becoming murderers. In this particular case, I do share concerns about the sexualized objectification of women in various media, including video games, but I feel she picked some of the sillier examples to use for reference. No one is going the brainwashing route here, nor is Sarkeesian, but you're going the complete opposite way and saying that it shouldn't be discussed at all. If media can influence people's viewpoint on the world, and you admit that it can, then why is discussing how it portrays them completely off-limits and unimportant? That's where I really don't get your point, because some people are hysterical about something, no discussion should be made about it? If that were the case, no one would discuss anything because there are always lunatics screaming nonsense on any subject. Never said I don't think it should be discussed at all, but I do think there are better examples to focus on.
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Jul 20, 2014 17:15:41 GMT -5
]Never said I don't think it should be discussed at all, but I do think there are better examples to focus on. Not in those exact words, but you've said that videogames aren't something worth serious discussion, and that you don't think gender equality discussion gets as much "heat" outside of pop culture responses. Combine that with only taking the most extreme examples (Frederic Wertham and the "Videogames cause murders" hysteria) and that's honestly how you come off, as though it's something you don't think should be discussed. This isn't a subject confined to pop culture by any stretch, but pop culture is an important place to discuss any societal trend, because of how it affects future generations.
|
|
Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,933
|
Post by Sephiroth on Jul 20, 2014 17:20:14 GMT -5
]Never said I don't think it should be discussed at all, but I do think there are better examples to focus on. Not in those exact words, but you've said that videogames aren't something worth serious discussion, and that you don't think gender equality gets as much "heat" outside of pop culture responses. Combine that with only taking the most extreme examples (Frederic Wertham and the "Videogames cause murders) and that's honestly how you come off, as though it's something you don't think should be discussed. I'll say it right out the. And beg your pardon if you disagree: I think she deliberately picked video games as her topic knowing it would generate the most backlash from gamers and hence garner more attention, much like the other examples I cited. While I appreciate the concern about the objectification of women, there are other areas where I feel the debate carries a bit more weight-but that aren't going to get as much press as video games.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 17:28:51 GMT -5
Not in those exact words, but you've said that videogames aren't something worth serious discussion, and that you don't think gender equality gets as much "heat" outside of pop culture responses. Combine that with only taking the most extreme examples (Frederic Wertham and the "Videogames cause murders) and that's honestly how you come off, as though it's something you don't think should be discussed. I'll say it right out the. And beg your pardon if you disagree: I think she deliberately picked video games as her topic knowing it would generate the most backlash from gamers and hence garner more attention, much like the other examples I cited. While I appreciate the concern about the objectification of women, there are other areas where I feel the debate carries a bit more weight-but that aren't going to get as much press as video games. You've just described pretty much every feminist act ever, of any attempt to change anything in social terms outside of feminism too, you have to raise the ire of people to get attention a lot of the time. Make no bones about, don't believe that being nice 100% of the time and only discussing things with communities who'll agree 100% with you will make a change, movements will often piss people off because that's the nature of attempting to change things. You can be as well explained as you like but when push comes to shove, change scares people, and scared people in an entitled position afraid of having to share said position often like to pretend those raising a fuss are just doing it for selfish hype attention, when usually it's more to bring attention to a cause (it could be for personality attention too, yes, but that's another discussion). Remember the rape and death threats aimed at the woman who demanded/opened up the notion that famous women SHOULD remain on UK bank notes when she won out in that? Remember the smaller scale hatred of independent developer Zoe Quinn outlines the same type of threads over her making a video game focusing on depression because she happened to be a woman and it's easy for male gamers to throw around violent threats when they feel confused/upset? Sometimes you have to face the ugly side of humanity in order to get a point across. Note: my post isn't so much about the Feminist Frequency videos as I know people throw around a lot of horrid comments over them, more the nature of how change works in social environments.
|
|
Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,933
|
Post by Sephiroth on Jul 20, 2014 17:30:38 GMT -5
I'm just going to cut myself out of this debate at this point, I've said my piece and I prefer leave it at that.
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Jul 20, 2014 17:47:25 GMT -5
=]I'll say it right out the. And beg your pardon if you disagree: I think she deliberately picked video games as her topic knowing it would generate the most backlash from gamers and hence garner more attention, much like the other examples I cited. While I appreciate the concern about the objectification of women, there are other areas where I feel the debate carries a bit more weight-but that aren't going to get as much press as video games. The subject does carry more weight elsewhere, which is why you've heard hundreds of hours of discussion and rambling and screaming in the media in recent weeks about gender issues, and 0 of which involved videogames. Granted, the rules prevent me from going into more detail, but anyone paying attention to the news knows that it's true. The fact is, objectification in videogames doesn't get press outside of the gaming world yet. As videogames become more and more a part of the entertainment world, it will be, but as of now, it's not. In fact, movies and rap music are really the only media that tend to be heavily scrutinized outside of their own respective spheres (and movies have it easy enough, they just have to answer to the Bechdel Test). You're drastically overstating how much press this gets outside of gaming news. This isnt' opinion here, major news outlets don't care about her videos. She's not getting a flood of new press by taking on videogames, she's just opening herself up to the type of remarks that prove that there's a problem in the industry. If this were all for press, then she wouldn't have stopped comments on her videos, because not only did they bolster her point, they improved her metrics. And if this is a subject worth discussing, then it's a subject worth discussing honestly, and honest discussion doesn't occur with cherry picking more extreme examples than she herself uses, by misrepresenting her points like some of her critics do, or by going all #notallgamers to the response she gets. All these things just provide fuel to the notion that there is a problem.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 18:48:05 GMT -5
My question is more about people who get worked up about the videos; the points they make tend to be pretty basic and often self evident, and like I said earlier are kid of "feminist theory 101" in nature, but you'd think they were killing peoples pets the way some folks react. Oddly enough, though, I find a lot of women I speak to, and yes, this includes avowed feminists, don't mind the earlier Tomb Raider games very much. Lara, despite her overt fan service nature, is still a strong, capable protagonist. Instead, more of them were annoyed with the reboot, especially when one of the developers gave that quote about wanting the player to feel like they wanted to "protect" Lara. It's one of those things where all you have to do is ask "would they do this with somebody like Master Chief?", and you instantly understand the annoyance a lot felt over it. Maybe part of it is the redundancy. This is nothing new. The objectification in games is old. To me, it sort of feels like hopping aboard a bandwagon of criticism rather than really doing anything of her own merit, because nothing she says is particularly well-informed. But that's interesting how many people you know of who think the old games had a better protagonist than the new one. I guessit's indicative that a lot of people involved in game development and publication still don't get it; even when they think they're fixing the sources of criticism for the objectification, they're doing a lot to make it worse by wrapping a weak character in a shiny new skin and trumpeting "Progress!"
|
|
|
Post by Cyno on Jul 20, 2014 19:26:37 GMT -5
Oddly enough, though, I find a lot of women I speak to, and yes, this includes avowed feminists, don't mind the earlier Tomb Raider games very much. Lara, despite her overt fan service nature, is still a strong, capable protagonist. Instead, more of them were annoyed with the reboot, especially when one of the developers gave that quote about wanting the player to feel like they wanted to "protect" Lara. It's one of those things where all you have to do is ask "would they do this with somebody like Master Chief?", and you instantly understand the annoyance a lot felt over it. I do remember that, the dude was making all these comments about Lara's "baby fat" and how the tears in her clothing "are kind of sexy in their own way." Hilarious stuff. Putting aside Lara's resume after three games, just imagine some dev saying that about a rookie Indiana Jones, James Bond, or even that guy Brendan Fraser played in The Mummy. The sad thing is that Lara's character arc in the reboot is incredibly well-done. It's just this one developer saying all this dumb stuff. Fortunately, his comments aren't reflective of the character who at first is struggling to survive in this incredibly hostile environment like she's never experienced before but she learns to become a big goddamn hero and saves the day. Her character is amazingly and refreshingly human, which is so rare to see in a video game, much less one starring a female protagonist. Becky Chambers of The Mary Sue has written a wonderful article about why Lara's portrayal in the reboot is a very positive thing, and her review of the game is similarly praising of this portrayal. www.themarysue.com/why-the-fearful-hero-is-a-good-thing-for-video-games/
|
|
Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,359
|
Post by Dr. T is an alien on Jul 20, 2014 19:53:06 GMT -5
She's really looking too far into it. Like okay, you can "violate" women in open-world games. You can do the exact same thing to men. Women in video games are sexualized but so are men (Do I really need to explain why almost every male game protagonist is a handsome young man in perfect physical condition?). Are you kidding me??!! The biggest video game protagonist is an ugly, fat, seemingly unemployed plumber! Actually, I get your point. I just felt the need to make a joke.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 21:09:57 GMT -5
I'm glad I'm not alone in liking Lara's portrayal in the new Tomb Raider.
It also helps that she no longer controls like a tank, but that's a topic for another time.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,082
|
Post by Mozenrath on Jul 20, 2014 21:14:28 GMT -5
I'm glad I'm not alone in liking Lara's portrayal in the new Tomb Raider. It also helps that she no longer controls like a tank, but that's a topic for another time.I just hope that they kind of take her off the rails a little more for the next game, I want to be able to explore more and you just couldn't do that much in that. Still not a big fan of the "protect her" stuff, but that's more an issue with out-of-game stuff than in the game, not well thought out PR there. There is something to be done with protecting your protagonist, which is somewhat how it felt playing as Ellie in the Last of Us DLC, but that worked because she's young and it is an extension of when you played as Joel, wanting to keep her out of a grizzly fate. It feels a little weirder talking about a fully adult woman character like some helpless being.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Jul 20, 2014 22:08:05 GMT -5
My question is more about people who get worked up about the videos; the points they make tend to be pretty basic and often self evident, and like I said earlier are kid of "feminist theory 101" in nature, but you'd think they were killing peoples pets the way some folks react. Oddly enough, though, I find a lot of women I speak to, and yes, this includes avowed feminists, don't mind the earlier Tomb Raider games very much. Lara, despite her overt fan service nature, is still a strong, capable protagonist. Instead, more of them were annoyed with the reboot, especially when one of the developers gave that quote about wanting the player to feel like they wanted to "protect" Lara. It's one of those things where all you have to do is ask "would they do this with somebody like Master Chief?", and you instantly understand the annoyance a lot felt over it. Maybe part of it is the redundancy. This is nothing new. The objectification in games is old. To me, it sort of feels like hopping aboard a bandwagon of criticism rather than really doing anything of her own merit, because nothing she says is particularly well-informed. But that's interesting how many people you know of who think the old games had a better protagonist than the new one. I guessit's indicative that a lot of people involved in game development and publication still don't get it; even when they think they're fixing the sources of criticism for the objectification, they're doing a lot to make it worse by wrapping a weak character in a shiny new skin and trumpeting "Progress!" Couple of things to keep in mind: -It's really not redundant at this stage for most people; again, remember that video games didn't even begin entering 3D until around 20 years ago, and didn't begin to more regularly feature voice acting until more like 15 years ago. It may feel old to you and I, folks who grew up with games and go to websites where they're regularly discussed, but to the wider public, the specifics of gaming culture remain niche...a large niche, but niche nonetheless. That means there is room for somebody giving a "101" level critique of them, as it hasn't really been done in a widely accessible way before. -Even if that were the case, however...it still wouldn't justify the insane backlash she's received in so many corners. I've seen everything from rape/death threats to people calling her a hypocrite because, gasp(!), she wears lipstick and earrings while discussing gendered clothing...because apparently she's not allowed to choose for herself what she gets to wear. It's pretty sickening. The Lara Croft conversation really is an interesting one; I didn't finish saying it before, but some of those same folks who didn't like the whole "protect her!" thing DID think her character arc was handled well...but I think they had a feeling like "Why can't you just let us keep this kickass female protagonist instead of making her vulnerable?" A lesser example of that would be Metroid Other M; silent badass Samus gets a character, but, well...we know how that was handled. The Tomb Raider reboot at least gave her a decent character arc, but I think many of them just wanted to see an original protagonist go through that, not a pre-established badass like Croft.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 22:50:16 GMT -5
Maybe part of it is the redundancy. This is nothing new. The objectification in games is old. To me, it sort of feels like hopping aboard a bandwagon of criticism rather than really doing anything of her own merit, because nothing she says is particularly well-informed. But that's interesting how many people you know of who think the old games had a better protagonist than the new one. I guessit's indicative that a lot of people involved in game development and publication still don't get it; even when they think they're fixing the sources of criticism for the objectification, they're doing a lot to make it worse by wrapping a weak character in a shiny new skin and trumpeting "Progress!" Couple of things to keep in mind: -It's really not redundant at this stage for most people; again, remember that video games didn't even begin entering 3D until around 20 years ago, and didn't begin to more regularly feature voice acting until more like 15 years ago. It may feel old to you and I, folks who grew up with games and go to websites where they're regularly discussed, but to the wider public, the specifics of gaming culture remain niche...a large niche, but niche nonetheless. That means there is room for somebody giving a "101" level critique of them, as it hasn't really been done in a widely accessible way before. -Even if that were the case, however...it still wouldn't justify the insane backlash she's received in so many corners. I've seen everything from rape/death threats to people calling her a hypocrite because, gasp(!), she wears lipstick and earrings while discussing gendered clothing...because apparently she's not allowed to choose for herself what she gets to wear. It's pretty sickening. The Lara Croft conversation really is an interesting one; I didn't finish saying it before, but some of those same folks who didn't like the whole "protect her!" thing DID think her character arc was handled well...but I think they had a feeling like "Why can't you just let us keep this kickass female protagonist instead of making her vulnerable?" A lesser example of that would be Metroid Other M; silent badass Samus gets a character, but, well...we know how that was handled. The Tomb Raider reboot at least gave her a decent character arc, but I think many of them just wanted to see an original protagonist go through that, not a pre-established badass like Croft. -I guess that's true, and maybe my experience has made my opinion different. In the field of history, a big no-no is to publish anything that doesn't contain any new information or handle it differently as some kind of big standalone project. So when I see something like this I get that "Been there done that" feeling and sort of shake my head and move on. Yet the fact that so many people are incensed about it suggests that it sort of is new for certain people. Then again, internet commenters tend to be a pretty lowly bunch. Many of them stoop to saying things no person would say in public due to the likelihood of being taped saying it and it getting spread on the internet. -Agreed there. I don't think there should be an intense backlash, but I do think it's worth some criticism. -This is why I'm interested in playing the next Tomb Raider and seeing where they go with it. The angle they seem to be taking is that she has PTSD due to harrowing experiences and slaying hundreds of people. So now instead of being a terrified doe-eyed young lady, they stack up "the dramaz" by giving her perpetual nightmares and guilt. Whereas Core Design Lara was calm, competent and intelligent and although she regretted killing people, since she recognized that they were evil and threatened the world (an ancient goddess, a mobster who becomes a dragon, and an explorer who becomes a giant spider), destroying them was kind of necessary to continue existing, and did as such. Oh and, FWIW, I think being stuck in a darkened pyramid room with charging Atlanteans in TR1 is way scarier than anything 2013 Lara had to deal with. My goodness. Even Resident Evil was nothing compared to that.
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,855
|
Post by Dub H on Jul 23, 2014 0:55:01 GMT -5
This was pretty civil for the most part. Salute FAN. I will fix this.Your opinion sucks and something bad should happen to you,ranging to minor injury to more dangerous situation.
|
|