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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 11:41:27 GMT -5
That seems about right, though I think he was a bit too harsh on AJ/Paige and Wyatt/Jericho, both of which I'd bump up half a star. But yeah, Battleground really was a one-match show (even if the wrong team won that one match). I think Meltzer finds it offensive when good wrestlers put on a match that is below their caliber. Hence him being a hardass on the divas' title match. True, but to say that AJ/Paige was worse than, say, Orton/Big Show from last year's Survivor Series just seems like an exaggeration, even taking the "good workers having bad matches" thing into account. I mean it was a disappointing match but I thought it had some decent parts to it, which gives me hope that the rematch will be much better.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on Jul 24, 2014 11:44:36 GMT -5
That seems about right, though I think he was a bit too harsh on AJ/Paige and Wyatt/Jericho, both of which I'd bump up half a star. But yeah, Battleground really was a one-match show (even if the wrong team won that one match). I think Meltzer finds it offensive when good wrestlers put on a match that is below their caliber. Hence him being a hardass on the divas' title match. That could be a factor too.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 24, 2014 11:47:36 GMT -5
He's right. That show was shit.
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amaron
Samurai Cop
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Post by amaron on Jul 24, 2014 11:52:44 GMT -5
After how the last RAW crowd popped for Swagger, I was really shocked at just how dead they were for the match at the PPV.
I give the battle royal * 1/2 for the un-originality of the ending. Several of us called it when there were multiple people still left in the ring.
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Post by bocahontas on Jul 24, 2014 11:53:30 GMT -5
I'd have given Rusev v. Swagger more and Wyatt's v. Uso less. Pacing was all off for the first two falls. Made the final fall look silly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 11:53:44 GMT -5
I think Meltzer finds it offensive when good wrestlers put on a match that is below their caliber. Hence him being a hardass on the divas' title match. True, but to say that AJ/Paige was worse than, say, Orton/Big Show from last year's Survivor Series just seems like an exaggeration, even taking the "good workers having bad matches" thing into account. I mean it was a disappointing match but I thought it had some decent parts to it, which gives me hope that the rematch will be much better. I don't know. Orton/Show was bad but did anyone expect it to be anything but? Orton's deliberate style with Big Show's sluggishness? That's the wrestling equivalent of instead of having nothing but French fries for dinner. There's nothing inherently wrong with them, but it's hard to get excited about. Paige/AJ was hyped up as being a great match with great wrestlers wrestlers and a possible revival of women's wrestling being taken seriously. Not only did it not live up to expectations; it fell flat. That, I think, is why he so heavily criticized it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 12:13:01 GMT -5
True, but to say that AJ/Paige was worse than, say, Orton/Big Show from last year's Survivor Series just seems like an exaggeration, even taking the "good workers having bad matches" thing into account. I mean it was a disappointing match but I thought it had some decent parts to it, which gives me hope that the rematch will be much better. I don't know. Orton/Show was bad but did anyone expect it to be anything but? Orton's deliberate style with Big Show's sluggishness? That's the wrestling equivalent of instead of having nothing but French fries for dinner. There's nothing inherently wrong with them, but it's hard to get excited about. Paige/AJ was hyped up as being a great match with great wrestlers wrestlers and a possible revival of women's wrestling being taken seriously. Not only did it not live up to expectations; it fell flat. That, I think, is why he so heavily criticized it. Yeah, I get what you mean. I just don't think that a bad match between two good workers is worse than a match living up to expectations of awfulness. It would be like saying that Eddie/Benoit from One Night Stand '05 was a worse match than Undertaker/Heidenreich from Royal Rumble '05. But, whatever, Meltzer is entitled to his opinions. No sense in quibbling over half a star.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jul 24, 2014 12:20:55 GMT -5
After how the last RAW crowd popped for Swagger, I was really shocked at just how dead they were for the match at the PPV. I give the battle royal * 1/2 for the un-originality of the ending. Several of us called it when there were multiple people still left in the ring. This always happens with pay-per-view crowds nowadays. They only care about certain guys and won't react in the same way the Raw crowds do. Hence why Swagger and Reigns always come off better on Raw than pay-per-view. Same thing happened to Alex Riley in 2012 (in his hometown no less) that essentially destroyed his career
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MrBRulzOK
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Jul 24, 2014 13:38:40 GMT -5
Alot of the matches suffered because they canceled Rollins vs Ambrose, a match that I'm sure alot of people were looking forward to. Remember that was immediately after Usos vs Harper and Rowan, which would explain why that match got over great while the rest of the show... not so much. The crowd was still pissed about the bait and switch.
Although that said, that's not the only reason why the crowd was underwhelming at times; some of those matches dragged them down too.
Another factor is that apparently everybody was exhausted from the recent touring schedule. That probably didn't help match quality either.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jul 24, 2014 13:51:23 GMT -5
I'm baffled by one thing here: Why do people think AJ and Paige are some kind of great workers? I keep hearing "Well, these ladies had a bad night but are capable of more." They are? I guess maybe with Paige since the Emma match on NXT was decent (though Charlotte/Nattie was far better). But where does this rep AJ has for being a great women's wrestler come from? I can't think of a single decent match she's ever had. People must just assume that since WWE crammed her down everyone's throats for the past 2 years that she MUST be a great talent. She isn't.
Rusev/Swagger was probably like ** or so. Not great but not awful either. I think the problem with Swagger is that Zeb can only do so much to hype a match on TV with promos. At the end of the day once these guys locked up on PPV I realized "Uh...it's a Jack Swagger match." I think this face turn has potential but WWE has conditioned audiences that Swagger doesn't matter.
At the end of the day I think the Rollins/Ambrose bait and switch is the main reason people hate this show. If those guys has just torn it up for a few minutes, did the briefcase DQ that they've been doing on house shows, and then had a pull apart brawl, people would be okay with it. It's too early to blow off the feud, but you have to deliver a match of some sort.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Jul 24, 2014 14:09:09 GMT -5
I'm baffled by one thing here: Why do people think AJ and Paige are some kind of great workers? I keep hearing "Well, these ladies had a bad night but are capable of more." They are? I guess maybe with Paige since the Emma match on NXT was decent (though Charlotte/Nattie was far better). But where does this rep AJ has for being a great women's wrestler come from? I can't think of a single decent match she's ever had. People must just assume that since WWE crammed her down everyone's throats for the past 2 years that she MUST be a great talent. She isn't. Well as far as Paige is concerned she is a great wrestler and has proved it in England, Shimmer and NXT. She's not top, top level like Madison Eagles, Sara Del Rey, Ayako Hamada, Daizee Haze in her peak, or the 90's Joshi girls, but she really is good. The real talent in the WWE is Becky Lynch however. Her prime may have been 9 years ago when I genuinely believe she was one of the best female wrestlers ever, at least from a technical standpoint anyway, but if she's as quarter as talented now as she was then she's fan-flipping-tastic.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Jul 24, 2014 14:21:57 GMT -5
For my money he overrated the main event and underrated AJ/Paige and Y2J/Wyatt. AJ/Paige was botch heavy but they told a good story and it definitely wasnt a 1/2* match. At least ** for me. I'd probably have stretched to ****1/4 for Usos/Wyatts and *** for Wyatt/Y2J. I'd have the main event no higher than **1/2.
But that's just me, Meltzer is more than entitled to his opinion.
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MrBRulzOK
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Jul 24, 2014 14:23:46 GMT -5
I'm baffled by one thing here: Why do people think AJ and Paige are some kind of great workers? I keep hearing "Well, these ladies had a bad night but are capable of more." They are? I guess maybe with Paige since the Emma match on NXT was decent (though Charlotte/Nattie was far better). But where does this rep AJ has for being a great women's wrestler come from? I can't think of a single decent match she's ever had. People must just assume that since WWE crammed her down everyone's throats for the past 2 years that she MUST be a great talent. She isn't. AJ vs Natalya was a great match on Main Event. She also had a fun encounter with Naomi back when they were both on NXT. She's not the greatest women's wrestler ever, but her and Paige both are far and above at least half of the other women on the main roster.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 14:29:52 GMT -5
I'm baffled by one thing here: Why do people think AJ and Paige are some kind of great workers? I keep hearing "Well, these ladies had a bad night but are capable of more." They are? I guess maybe with Paige since the Emma match on NXT was decent (though Charlotte/Nattie was far better). But where does this rep AJ has for being a great women's wrestler come from? I can't think of a single decent match she's ever had. People must just assume that since WWE crammed her down everyone's throats for the past 2 years that she MUST be a great talent. She isn't. Go watch AJ/Nattie from Main Event or TLC 2013. Or AJ/Kaitlyn from Payback 2013. Or AJ/Naomi from season three of NXT. Or the AJ/Serena Queen of FCW match. She's not an elite women's wrestler like, say, Kana or Madison Eagles or something but she's still pretty good.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on Jul 24, 2014 14:40:08 GMT -5
I'm baffled by one thing here: Why do people think AJ and Paige are some kind of great workers? I keep hearing "Well, these ladies had a bad night but are capable of more." They are? I guess maybe with Paige since the Emma match on NXT was decent (though Charlotte/Nattie was far better). But where does this rep AJ has for being a great women's wrestler come from? I can't think of a single decent match she's ever had. People must just assume that since WWE crammed her down everyone's throats for the past 2 years that she MUST be a great talent. She isn't. Go watch AJ/Nattie from Main Event or TLC 2013. Or AJ/Kaitlyn from Payback 2013. Or AJ/Naomi from season three of NXT. Or the AJ/Serena Queen of FCW match. She's not an elite women's wrestler like, say, Kana or Madison Eagles or something but she's still pretty good. Thank you for saving me the trouble of typing up a reply. Here's the thing. No one ever would dare to claim Dean Ambrose is a bad wrestler due to never having a good solo match during his US title reign. Even though that's pretty staggering to think about. I remember people would say that Rollins had a better style or that Reigns was more explosive (imagine that now), but they'd never call his ability into question. It's really odd to see people gather around and develop a consensus based almost entirely on one match. I'd give it until Summerslam to be fair.
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gr1990
Don Corleone
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Post by gr1990 on Jul 24, 2014 16:02:46 GMT -5
Sounds more like he *didn't* rate it, amirite?
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JTH
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Post by JTH on Jul 24, 2014 16:12:49 GMT -5
In terms of what the match "needed" to do, the rating for Swagger/Rusev is correct. If that's the finish they wanted to "Keep both guys strong", then that attempt was a complete failure. Because it made Swagger, the fresh new babyface representing America look like a complete dunce. This isn't like a couple years back with Sheamus/Mark Henry at SummerSlam which I thought was a good count out finish, as the new hot babyface Sheamus got the complete crap beat out of him on outside and still nearly beat a 10 count back in the ring. It showed how tough and how much heart Sheamus had to try and keep fighting, rather then Swagger knocked out on a ring post 3 feet from the ring for 3 minutes. It was a horrible finish, they should have just waited and built them up for SummerSlam being the first encounter. I give the battle royal * 1/2 for the un-originality of the ending. Several of us called it when there were multiple people still left in the ring. HA! I called it as soon as Miz returned, how's that for "un-originality"?
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Post by Racksman on Jul 24, 2014 17:04:35 GMT -5
He totally overrated the final three matches. He's dead on with the rating of the Tag Team Title match. Rusev/Swagger was at least **.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 17:06:22 GMT -5
But what did Mark think of it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 17:07:45 GMT -5
I'm baffled by one thing here: Why do people think AJ and Paige are some kind of great workers? I keep hearing "Well, these ladies had a bad night but are capable of more." They are? I guess maybe with Paige since the Emma match on NXT was decent (though Charlotte/Nattie was far better). But where does this rep AJ has for being a great women's wrestler come from? I can't think of a single decent match she's ever had. People must just assume that since WWE crammed her down everyone's throats for the past 2 years that she MUST be a great talent. She isn't. Well as far as Paige is concerned she is a great wrestler and has proved it in England, Shimmer and NXT. She's not top, top level like Madison Eagles, Sara Del Rey, Ayako Hamada, Daizee Haze in her peak, or the 90's Joshi girls, but she really is good. The real talent in the WWE is Becky Lynch however. Her prime may have been 9 years ago when I genuinely believe she was one of the best female wrestlers ever, at least from a technical standpoint anyway, but if she's as quarter as talented now as she was then she's fan-flipping-tastic. Just a sidenote, but unless they intentionally sabotage her, Becky is going to be very successful. Most female wrestlers have kind of an awkward way of executing most of their moves. Even if they're not really sloppy or they don't botch anything, it still doesn't look quite right. I don't get that vibe with Becky at all. She's extremely talented.
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