So...street harassment.

[Deleted]

The Internet's been blowing up with this issue lately. According to Stop Street Harassment, it's defined like this:

Unwelcome words and actions by unknown persons in public places which are motivated by gender and invade a person’s physical and emotional space in a disrespectful, creepy, startling, scary, or insulting way.

Said to be part of a slippery slope that ultimately justifies assault. Detractors claim that the movement is an overreaction fueled by Tumblr-types who hate everything.

Here's a video on the situation that's been a landmine lately.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYAL21jxREQ

What do you folks think about this? Go for it in the Eh, you know what to do...

[Deleted]

Crestfallen: that feeling I feel when I realize that we need an ever-increasing number of definitions, laws and expressions just to remind each other to act with civility and compassion.

but yeah - harrassment of any kind is ridiculous and I'd love for every person to have to go through a "this is how you DON'T hit on someone" semiar before being allowed to attempt to pick someone up.

[Kevin Hamilton]

It seems like responding with a "shut the f*** up" or whatever would be worse/invite more negativity, especially if it happened to be the wrong douchebag.

That said, a lotta dudes in general are idiots with this kinda thing. That's not right, but it's not new; so inventing a term for that seems odd.

But yeah I've never understood hollerin at some random chick, especially with the lamest and/or disgusting shit imaginable.

[agent817]

I have an example to share. Some guy I KIND OF know said that I am getting bigger when I ran into him earlier this week. At first, I thought he might have meant because I have been working out, but I asked "where" and he said "On your gut." Part of me would have just said "F you" to him, but I just brushed it off with "whatever."

[Bo Rida]

Why limit it by gender?
Why not disabled, gay couples, fat people, bearded people, old people, teenage mums, homeless...

Basically don't be an asshole to strangers on the street.

My favourite example was when some asshole middle-aged middle-manager type shouted "get a job" at a big issue seller* and about six of us rounded on him with something along with the lines of "he's got one/what do you think he's doing?".


*Homeless charity. Homeless people buy magazines and sell them on street.

[Michael Coello]

...Really?

[Brood Lone Wolf Funker]

It happens all the time in NYC sadly

[The Ichi]

2014: The year where we'll apply new terms to stuff that has always existed.

[Non Banjoble Tokens]

This is all a misunderstanding. The dudes who say these things are just being nice guys.

[SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman]

Let's not kid ourselves, the "detractors" in question are most probably MRAs who think it's somehow impeding on their freedoms to make them treat women as human beings.
Like, when they show the hidden camera footage, it's baffling that so many men seem to think it's okay to be so intrusive and, yes, harassing, especially if the woman in question makes it clear that this behaviour embarrasses or angers her (although really for some of it they really shouldn't HAVE to point it out. And of course, the gender-flipped problem also exists but in this example it's from the POV of women).
The only genuine criticism I could give to the video is that it also shows footage of men just looking at women, overlayed with someone talking about possessiveness which seems to imply that just looking at a woman was somehow objectifying her and denying her individuality.

But honestly it's more a problem of presentation than really the message of the video as its point stays true. I mean, the hidden camera footage on its own speaks for itself. And I kind of agree with encouraging people to respond because honestly I feel a lot of people who act that way just assume that no response = approval. And the fact that some people still think it's okay to grope others without their consent just pisses me off. I think if I caught someone doing that I'd smash their head against the nearest wall.

Not a fan of the definition in the OP specifying that it's "motivated by gender" though because people have experienced it for all sorts of reasons. It seems to imply that it doesn't count if you get harassed for your ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc... which are all things people go through every day.

[Michael Coello]

Aug 15, 2014 17:24:14 GMT -5 SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman said:

Let's not kid ourselves, the "detractors" in question are most probably MRAs who think it's somehow impeding on their freedoms to make them treat women as human beings.

Stop.

No, you can't use MRA for shorthand for whatever douchebag you try to envision in these things. it happens a lot here and needs to stop. It's not, and never should be used like that. Period.

Which leads to:

Not a fan of the definition in the OP specifying that it's "motivated by gender" though because people have experienced it for all sorts of reasons. It seems to imply that it doesn't count if you get harassed for your ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc... which are all things people go through every day.

Because it's easier to make it act like something happens to a particular group, which obviously means that you only have an issue with the group specifics, as opposed to actually making it about the issue itself that affects a vast group of people and shows that it needs to be taken off at the basic level, and not some societal or popular culture level.

And that can't happen, for some reason.

[HMARK Center]

Harassment does happen to many people who are "different" (overweight, handicapped, different ethnicities, etc.), but an enormous amount of it is gender-driven. While numerous men experience it for the reasons I just listed, the number doesn't really come close to the number of women who experience it for any of those reasons combined with the sexual/gender-dominance aspect of it. It's not to minimize what men who experience it go through, mind you, just to point out that there's a different type of it that's much more widespread since it directly goes after 50% of the population.

Living in a city, I can safely say that the vast majority of women I know in my neighborhood have numerous street harassment stories, ranging from random catcalls to out and out groping in public places (e.g. a subway train, on line at a coffee stand, etc.). It shows up on Facebook feeds daily, and unless you believe there's some sort of conspiracy by all the women of Jersey City to make some of the guys look bad, it kind of speaks for itself. My girlfriend has story upon story of walking sidewalks in our hometown, or attending conventions, and dealing with slack jawed idiots who think she just has to hear from them concerning how her butt looks in whatever outfit she's wearing.

What's so sad about it is that there are certain corners of the population that can't just walk around in public by themselves without feeling like they have to take special precautions for it (sticking with friends as much as possible, having something like pepper spray handy, etc.), and just have to brace themselves for inevitable public harassment. Again, it does happen to some guys; practicing Muslim men wearing religious garb, obese people getting insults hurled at them from passing cars, etc. The issue is that it happens to almost every woman in a densely enough populated area, for all of those reasons in addition to the simple fact that they are women and thus objects of attraction and objects to be dominated on some level by these jerks.

[Arthur Digby Stamp]

Until I started dating my most recent girlfriend I never realized how frequently some guys will go out of their way to be disrespectful pigs. Always when they know that there's little to no chance of being called out on their bullshit, of course.

As a middle boy in a family with an older and a younger sister, I can't imagine treating anyone from any background that way, much less a solitary woman by herself on the street or a grocery store. I can only play armchair psychologist and assume it has far more to do with a feeling of power and intimidation than anything else.

[HMARK Center]

Aug 15, 2014 17:50:55 GMT -5 Arthur Digby Stamp said:

Until I started dating my most recent girlfriend I never realized how frequently some guys will go out of their way to be disrespectful pigs. Always when they know that there's little to no chance of being called out on their bullshit, of course.

As a middle boy in a family with an older and a younger sister, I can't imagine treating anyone from any background that way, much less a solitary woman by herself on the street or a grocery store. I can only play armchair psychologist and assume it has far more to do with a feeling of power and intimidation than anything else.

That's actually what a lot of experts seem to think, that few of these guys think that catcalling will get them laid, but that it instead reinforces their "dominance" over public spaces or the image they project to their peers. It's a disturbing, but morbidly fascinating topic of study, sadly.

[SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman]

Aug 15, 2014 17:32:11 GMT -5 Michael Coello said:

Aug 15, 2014 17:24:14 GMT -5 SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman said:

Let's not kid ourselves, the "detractors" in question are most probably MRAs who think it's somehow impeding on their freedoms to make them treat women as human beings.

Stop.

No, you can't use MRA for shorthand for whatever douchebag you try to envision in these things. it happens a lot here and needs to stop. It's not, and never should be used like that. Period.

Which leads to:

Not a fan of the definition in the OP specifying that it's "motivated by gender" though because people have experienced it for all sorts of reasons. It seems to imply that it doesn't count if you get harassed for your ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc... which are all things people go through every day.

Because it's easier to make it act like something happens to a particular group, which obviously means that you only have an issue with the group specifics, as opposed to actually making it about the issue itself that affects a vast group of people and shows that it needs to be taken off at the basic level, and not some societal or popular culture level.

And that can't happen, for some reason.

Well, in the case presented in the OP, it IS gender-based so I don't see anyone but MRA-types to get offended by the concept of treating women like people and support gender-based harassment.

However, I do find it dangerous to reduce the definition to ONLY include gender-motivated harassment as it ignores OTHER cases.

[Michael Coello]

Aug 15, 2014 18:37:20 GMT -5 SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman said:

Aug 15, 2014 17:32:11 GMT -5 Michael Coello said:

Stop.

No, you can't use MRA for shorthand for whatever douchebag you try to envision in these things. it happens a lot here and needs to stop. It's not, and never should be used like that. Period.

Which leads to:

Because it's easier to make it act like something happens to a particular group, which obviously means that you only have an issue with the group specifics, as opposed to actually making it about the issue itself that affects a vast group of people and shows that it needs to be taken off at the basic level, and not some societal or popular culture level.

And that can't happen, for some reason.

Well, in the case presented in the OP, it IS gender-based so I don't see anyone but MRA-types to get offended by the concept of treating women like people and support gender-based harassment.

However, I do find it dangerous to reduce the definition to ONLY include gender-motivated harassment as it ignores OTHER cases.

Again, not at all what MRA means

And again, this case is not gender based, especially singular gender based. It's weird how you have a sentence that has it as "yeah, this is about gender", and the next sentence directly contradicts that.

[Amazing Kitsune]

Aug 15, 2014 17:32:11 GMT -5 Michael Coello said:

Aug 15, 2014 17:24:14 GMT -5 SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman said:

Let's not kid ourselves, the "detractors" in question are most probably MRAs who think it's somehow impeding on their freedoms to make them treat women as human beings.

Stop.

No, you can't use MRA for shorthand for whatever douchebag you try to envision in these things. it happens a lot here and needs to stop. It's not, and never should be used like that. Period.

Yeah, the term MRA has become something of a boogeyman around these parts. Extremist MRAs are just like extremist feminists and extremists of any other belief system. They're not representative of the whole. The extremists do suck, but they're not the whole story.

As to the topic--people should be nice to one another on the streets. Being harassed on the street isn't a problem that only affects women, though. That's a specific subsection of the problem and it's a very old, very troubling problem, but that's not the whole problem.

[Mozenrath]

Street harassment almost makes it sound like a guy puts down a guitar case and hopes people toss change in as he yells "fat ass, wanna come to my place?" at people. Not my favorite kind of busker, to say the least.

[HMARK Center]

Well, again, the issue is that street harassment of women is more prevalent than other kinds, if only due to the sheer numbers involved (e.g. fully half the street population of a given area instead of a specific minority group, whatever it might be). Given that fact, it's the most visible and most common type, but it's a type of abuse that most of us guys, barring those of us who do belong to a specific group that gets such treatment on the regular, are kind of oblivious to...hell, I know I absolutely was for a long time. Even when I'm with my girlfriend I don't hear any of it directly, since would-be catcallers see me and, I dunno, figure she "belongs" to me or something. The main differences simply come from sheer numbers and frequency, really; street abuse is not a daily occurrence for most of us guys, but is just completely, almost 100% expected each day by enormous numbers of women.

Thus, shining the light brightest on the most common type isn't necessarily bad or counter-productive; it's the most obvious way to draw attention to the issue, I'd figure. The hope would be that guys would feel positive about stating what they've had to deal with, as well, and thus you could kind of build a community and space where anybody would feel good about shining a light on a major issue.

[agent817]

I know that women suffer from cat calls and other forms of harassment. I can't imagine how they feel when they go through that. Not that I bear witness to any of it.