Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 10:10:56 GMT -5
/kayfabe
He gets paid per appearance
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Sept 16, 2014 10:15:42 GMT -5
Heyman stands up to bullies.
Plus Lesnar/Heyman is like Rudy/Horace from monster squad
Heyman = Horace Lesnar = Rudy Cena = Wonder years guy
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 16, 2014 12:41:55 GMT -5
This one is actually pretty easy to answer. He wanted to compromise Cena's integrity, and was willing to take some physical pain to see it done. The question I have is why Cena needed to hit Heyman with his fist to cross this line. Apparently, being capable of entrapment and dragging a man by his collar to the ring aren't dark enough offenses. There seems to be an idea that Cena needs to be a paragon to not be a hypocrite. I don't see why. Paul Heyman has been tormenting babyfaces for over 25 years, ordering gang attacks and having bones broken, trying to end the careers of fan favorites. He's been manhandled by people bigger and meaner. Want proof? Search Brock Lesnar vs Paul Heyman Steel Cage Match on Youtube to see Brock himself beating up and F-5ing Heyman I miss the days when Hogan or Warrior or Bossman would kick the asses of Heenan and JImmy Hart and others and fans would cheer because they were the ones behind all the attacks they had to go through The difference between 2003 Brock then and Cena, is that Cena is one big fake company marketing poster for morality, who has trademarked a mantra for children to follow/consume. Behavior in direct contradiction to that (bullying, selfishness, cheap shots, etc.) make his entire persona hypocritical. It's like selling yourself as a vegan based on morality and the hate of animal cruelty, then every other week, without explanation, we're shown said vegan kill an animal with his bare hands and eat it raw, all while the hype machine still tries to perpetuate the lie that he hasn't violated his code. Cena's reactions are dictated by his code of ethics, because he chooses to constantly say that he lives by them. And as such, when he does (and he does constantly) violate his own self-imposed self-righteous morality in angles, people rightly call bullshit. (rational thinking people anyway). The problem with Cena's character is that he often strikes first (while also being a written amalgam of several conflicting top babyface archetypes). Hogan, as selfish and hypocritical as he could be at times, usually reacted to heels, he didn't start shit. If he manhandled Heenan or Hart, it was, as you said, at the blowoff of the feud with one of their men, because said managers were behind the nefarious acts perpetuated against him. Cena, though, last night, basically preemptively kidnapped a guy (irritating, sure, but whom had done nothing other than blow hot air and brag about his client rightly defeating Cena man to man effortlessly at Summer Slam), held him hostage, waited for Brock to show up, and attacked him from behind after his first face to face attempt ended with him being wrecked. That's not the move of a hero. That's the desperation of a coward. And it is a blight on the story they were telling, and another chink in the imaginary moral armor of a character we're simply told is just, but whose actions never back it up. Cena was flat out bested at Summer Slam. And the previous "attack" by Lesnar in 2012 was negated the moment Cena pinned him at Extreme Rules. This match was an athletic competition, wherein Brock took no shortcuts, had no interference, and straight up schooled Cena and beat him as clean as a sheet. And did so without much effort. So, Cena should have been humbled. He was destroyed by a better man. This is where 'respect' should have came in. He didn't have to like Brock, or even back down, but going by the straight definition of his own morality, he should have simply trained harder, gotten dead serious, and saved his energy for the PPV, wherein he would surprise Brock with how ready he was this time. But instead? We got a Cena that was not in any way sympathetic or heroic. And now, the brutish WWE Champion is the logical babyface for sticking up for his friend and wanting revenge for coward Cena attacking him from behind. He's still not a good guy, or a nice guy, but he is justified. And it's WWE's fault that this is the case. Because it sure as shit shouldn't be.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 14:00:41 GMT -5
Because he wanted to BE A STAR!
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Post by angryfan on Sept 16, 2014 14:12:28 GMT -5
Heyman stands up to bullies. Plus Lesnar/Heyman is like Rudy/Horace from monster squad Heyman = Horace Lesnar = Rudy Cena = Wonder years guy I now demand Heyman at ringside just screaming for Brock to "kick him in the nards". I also now need to watch Monster Squad again, as it's been way too long.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 16, 2014 16:04:16 GMT -5
Sneak attack? He stands in the middle of the ring and waited for Brock to come out. Some sneak attack. Brock knew he was there, knew where he was, knew he wanted to fight. Brock may not have been dodging him, but while Cena's champ 90% of the time anyone who wants a piece of him knows where he is and can confront him quite easily. Not so for Brock. He charged into the ring after being booted out and hit Brock from behind like a total puss. Of course staying out of the ring from one German Suplex would have made him look like a puss too.
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Post by Speedy Cerviche on Sept 16, 2014 16:52:55 GMT -5
He charged into the ring after being booted out and hit Brock from behind like a total puss. Of course staying out of the ring from one German Suplex would have made him look like a puss too. He attacked Lesnar from behind after being convincingly outplayed by him. The issue isn't whether he should have done anything in retaliation or not but how he chose to react.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 16, 2014 17:06:25 GMT -5
Of course staying out of the ring from one German Suplex would have made him look like a puss too. He attacked Lesnar from behind after being convincingly outplayed by him. The issue isn't whether he should have done anything in retaliation or not but how he chose to react. faces don't stay down
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 16, 2014 17:18:53 GMT -5
In the past when managers have gotten comeuppance, it's because they interfered or caused active harm in some way. All Heyman has done is talk shit; said shit talking that has been 100%, no exaggerating factual as well.
Hell, nothing he's said since around Wrestlemania has been less than completely true.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 16, 2014 17:35:53 GMT -5
In the past when managers have gotten comeuppance, it's because they interfered or caused active harm in some way. All Heyman has done is talk shit; said shit talking that has been 100%, no exaggerating factual as well. Hell, nothing he's said since around Wrestlemania has been less than completely true. you sure? Cause he was with Cesaro for a couple of those months, including during Cesaro's losing streak
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 17:41:04 GMT -5
In the past when managers have gotten comeuppance, it's because they interfered or caused active harm in some way. All Heyman has done is talk shit; said shit talking that has been 100%, no exaggerating factual as well. Hell, nothing he's said since around Wrestlemania has been less than completely true. you sure? Cause he was with Cesaro for a couple of those months, including during Cesaro's losing streak ...what? The logic leaps you are committing are spectacular. Which is not a compliment. He never interfered in Cesaro matches, hell HE was the guy who stopped Cesaro attacking Kofi Kingston post match once upon a time when Cesaro was meant to be a destroyer (for two weeks during said losing streak). Heyman has spoken kayfabe fact, he USED to be a jerk a few years ago who interfered in matches. As of the last 9 months he's literally just been Brock's advocate. No interference, just his rep. Same when he was just Cesaro's rep before that was mercifully ended after ruining Cesaro's credibility.
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Post by Speedy Cerviche on Sept 16, 2014 17:45:43 GMT -5
He attacked Lesnar from behind after being convincingly outplayed by him. The issue isn't whether he should have done anything in retaliation or not but how he chose to react. faces don't stay down Never said he had to.
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mrbananagrabber
King Koopa
Paul Heyman's unofficial joke writer
Posts: 11,805
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Post by mrbananagrabber on Sept 16, 2014 17:47:32 GMT -5
That's like asking kids who get bullied at school why they don't stay at home. He came to Raw because he had to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 17:49:43 GMT -5
That's like asking kids who get bullied at school why they don't stay at home. He came to Raw because he had to. Cena is Jock Variant Cartman, targeting the Jewish child who tries their best and shows ingenuity frequently.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 16, 2014 18:04:39 GMT -5
you sure? Cause he was with Cesaro for a couple of those months, including during Cesaro's losing streak ...what? The logic leaps you are committing are spectacular. Which is not a compliment. He never interfered in Cesaro matches, hell HE was the guy who stopped Cesaro attacking Kofi Kingston post match once upon a time when Cesaro was meant to be a destroyer (for two weeks during said losing streak). Heyman has spoken kayfabe fact, he USED to be a jerk a few years ago who interfered in matches. As of the last 9 months he's literally just been Brock's advocate. No interference, just his rep. Same when he was just Cesaro's rep before that was mercifully ended after ruining Cesaro's credibility. He was certainly bullshitting with Cesaro since as you say that run ruined Cesaro's credabilty. of course I carry grudges, I've seen Heyman interfere in matches since the Dangerous Alliance. Heyman has interfered in the past. And frankly I think a lot of times Heyman wields Brock like a weapon.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 16, 2014 18:26:02 GMT -5
What's also terrible about the way they're doing this is that there's really no reason to feel excited for this match.
They gave away Rollins/Reigns, and now they've given away Cena interacting with Lesnar. All of this trains the audience to really not care about anything that happens. Everybody can watch and know "Eh, these guys will just butt heads on TV for a few minutes, why should I feel hype for this?".
If they wanted to hype this up, they could have shown Cena humbled, shown him pick himself up and training like something out of Rocky IV, and simply billed it as "Cena knows he screwed up at SummerSlam. He's not going to screw up again. Will that be enough to topple Lesnar?"
All of this extraneous stuff, having Brock and Cena love tap one another at the top of whichever hour of the show, it just makes everything feel blah, and it's so hideously overplayed in WWE booking that fans can recite it all by rote without even watching the show. Mind numbing stuff.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 18:33:09 GMT -5
...what? The logic leaps you are committing are spectacular. Which is not a compliment. He never interfered in Cesaro matches, hell HE was the guy who stopped Cesaro attacking Kofi Kingston post match once upon a time when Cesaro was meant to be a destroyer (for two weeks during said losing streak). Heyman has spoken kayfabe fact, he USED to be a jerk a few years ago who interfered in matches. As of the last 9 months he's literally just been Brock's advocate. No interference, just his rep. Same when he was just Cesaro's rep before that was mercifully ended after ruining Cesaro's credibility. He was certainly bullshitting with Cesaro since as you say that run ruined Cesaro's credabilty. of course I carry grudges, I've seen Heyman interfere in matches since the Dangerous Alliance. Heyman has interfered in the past. And frankly I think a lot of times Heyman wields Brock like a weapon. Except the ruining of credibility wasn't in kayfabe, it was backstage and the effect that had on Cesaro. Weirdly Heyman used to get hit when he was in the Dangerous Alliance too. Same as he has been hit by everyone. There's no carry over. You don't lay real issues on kayfabe characters as it makes for the most bewildering posts I've read on this forum (outside of creeps bothering real wrestlers/people pretending to know CM Punk and AJs thousand babies etc). Unless you want to claim kayfabe Heyman deserves to be hit for real life Paul giving New Jack cocaine before every big jump in ECW or something.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 16, 2014 18:49:21 GMT -5
you sure? Cause he was with Cesaro for a couple of those months, including during Cesaro's losing streak ...what? The logic leaps you are committing are spectacular. Which is not a compliment. He never interfered in Cesaro matches, hell HE was the guy who stopped Cesaro attacking Kofi Kingston post match once upon a time when Cesaro was meant to be a destroyer (for two weeks during said losing streak). Heyman has spoken kayfabe fact, he USED to be a jerk a few years ago who interfered in matches. As of the last 9 months he's literally just been Brock's advocate. No interference, just his rep. Same when he was just Cesaro's rep before that was mercifully ended after ruining Cesaro's credibility. Yep, again-- Heyman has been abrasive, and talked trash to the heavens. Every bit of which his client has backed up. Hell, he told Cena how to beat Brock. It was self serving, and he wanted to turn Cena into a Heyman guy, but he told him the truth. And no, heroes don't stay down. But they also don't cowardly attack someone from behind after they once again were easily bested. Brock walked right up to his challenge, suplexed him, and kicked him out of the ring like a bag of garbage.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 16, 2014 18:50:57 GMT -5
What's also terrible about the way they're doing this is that there's really no reason to feel excited for this match. They gave away Rollins/Reigns, and now they've given away Cena interacting with Lesnar. All of this trains the audience to really not care about anything that happens. Everybody can watch and know "Eh, these guys will just butt heads on TV for a few minutes, why should I feel hype for this?". If they wanted to hype this up, they could have shown Cena humbled, shown him pick himself up and training like something out of Rocky IV, and simply billed it as "Cena knows he screwed up at SummerSlam. He's not going to screw up again. Will that be enough to topple Lesnar?" All of this extraneous stuff, having Brock and Cena love tap one another at the top of whichever hour of the show, it just makes everything feel blah, and it's so hideously overplayed in WWE booking that fans can recite it all by rote without even watching the show. Mind numbing stuff. they showed Cena doing some training in preparation for the first match
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 16, 2014 18:52:30 GMT -5
...what? The logic leaps you are committing are spectacular. Which is not a compliment. He never interfered in Cesaro matches, hell HE was the guy who stopped Cesaro attacking Kofi Kingston post match once upon a time when Cesaro was meant to be a destroyer (for two weeks during said losing streak). Heyman has spoken kayfabe fact, he USED to be a jerk a few years ago who interfered in matches. As of the last 9 months he's literally just been Brock's advocate. No interference, just his rep. Same when he was just Cesaro's rep before that was mercifully ended after ruining Cesaro's credibility. Yep, again-- Heyman has been abrasive, and talked trash to the heavens. Every bit of which his client has backed up. Hell, he told Cena how to beat Brock. It was self serving, and he wanted to turn Cena into a Heyman guy, but he told him the truth. And no, heroes don't stay down. But they also don't cowardly attack someone from behind after they once again were easily bested. Brock walked right up to his challenge, suplexed him, and kicked him out of the ring like a bag of garbage. Brock also turned his back. If Cena didn't get up and start fighting again that counts as staying down
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