miffy
Mephisto
Posts: 744
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Post by miffy on Sept 22, 2014 5:39:49 GMT -5
Tell you wins clean more often than not - that diabolical Rusev. Eventually it'll come out that WWE are slowly turning the USA heel.
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Post by lookout on Sept 22, 2014 6:17:22 GMT -5
In any other sport, the amount of cheating you see in wrestling would be intolerable. It's one thing for a heel to do something unsportsmanlike to win a match or retain a title. But when third parties and foreign objects are involved AT LEAST twice per night, it stretches the suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. If you were watching the Stanley Cup finals and, seconds before last buzzer, another team ran onto the ice, knocked out the refs, and filled one team's goal with pucks they'd brought from home, only for the refs to come to a count them... you'd probably never watch hockey again. Everybody in the building would demand a refund. Hell, even MMA. If one dude knocked out the ref and then flattened his opponent with a chair, he wouldn't be declared the winner when the ref came to. He'd be banned from the sport for life. But in wrestling, something like 80+% of CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES are decided by blatant cheating. It kind of loses it's impact when it happens as often as not. I laughed so hard at imagining the things you mention actually happening. It would be the greatest thing ever put on television.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,510
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Post by Bo Rida on Sept 22, 2014 7:57:42 GMT -5
I like how Tully Blanchard described cheating on the Horsemen dvd as them maneuvering the ref out of position to do whatever they did. That's the sort of cheating I'd like more of, where it's the heel planning and manipulating the ref through cunning and not ref stupidity. This, if a champion is not going to win decisively then their victory should be character driven. That could be an evil masterplan, JBL or Bo style taking advantage of random strokes of luck or something out of character like the ending to most recent takeover. The reason why Neville winning by pulling the ref out of the ring didn't cause much of a backlash is because he was in control, it build on what came before and fits the story so it feels a natural storyline extension rather than a cheap cop-out. It also means the victim doesn't look like an idiot. Cheating can be OK but the champion not being in control of their own destiny and just benefiting from other people's interference doesn't help anybody or anything. To make matters worse it happens all the f***ing time these days. Just the taking the WWE championship match: NoC 2013 - Fast count finish, decision overturned the next night Battleground - Big show causes no contest HiaC - HBK is the crooked ref S.Series - Big Show spends two minutes getting distracted by people that weren't even allowed to interfere in his match TLC - Hooray, Orton took control and stooped to handcuffs RR - Wyatts interfere Elimination Chamber - Random Kane interference WM - Clean ER- Clean Payback - N/A MitB- Clean, but not the MitB match which was arguably the main event Battleground - Clean SS- Clean NoC - Seth interferes 12 PPVs, 7 lazy cheating endings. That's over half the PPVs in a year and that's just the WWE title matches on PPV and not all the other screwy endings elsewhere, who wants to subscribe to see that? They need to cut down or at least put some more thought into the endings so they're not seen as lazy cop-outs.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 22, 2014 8:03:23 GMT -5
Look at last night. Rollins ran in and ruined the ending of a major PPV that people paid hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for. And he'll have like ZERO repercussions for doing it. That Tae Kwon Do guy who hit the ref in the previous Olympics had a lifetime ban from the sport *before he stepped out of the circle*. Mike Tyson, one of the biggest names in boxing was suspended for how long after the whole ear thing? But in WWE, anybody can wreck a million-dollar main event whenever the hell they want. It's (more) absurd (than usual)! To be fair, in storyline, the Authority could easily protect Rollins.
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Post by MrElijah on Sept 22, 2014 11:05:09 GMT -5
Win if you can, lose if you must, but ALWAYS cheat. School of heenan for life.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Sept 22, 2014 11:13:35 GMT -5
How about this? If your big (several hundred dollars per ticket, 50 on PPV, 9.99 on the network) ends with a blatant DQ, finish...everybody gets refunds. Every friggin' DIME. It's bad enough that this Calvinball-like BS happens on the undercard. But when your MAIN EVENT, the one match that everybody PAID to see is DQ/no contest... Fans have every right to demand compensation. They would just change the match order and call the Divas match the main event
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Sept 22, 2014 12:30:19 GMT -5
You do have cheating in every major sport: * Football players hold. They commit pass interference. They take cheap shots (personal fouls). * Basketball players travel to gain an advantage, they go over the back to grab a rebound, they lower their shoulders and bump a defender out of position to get off a shot. * Soccer players go offsides, they flop (or dive, a term that I guess is supposed to make it sound less cowardly). * Boxers land low blows, they rabbit punch (hit the back of the head), they hold and hit, hit after the bell. * Baseball players have used corked bats, pitchers have used files or substances on the ball to make it move more. All these have been done on purpose. They are done to gain an advantage. Sometimes the refs catch them, sometimes they get away with it. Sometimes they decide the outcome of big games, even championships. Just like wrestling. I think your estimation of 80 percent sounds high, although I haven't done the research, but I would guess that some form of what I have mentioned (or the countless other things I haven't mentioned that are more subtle, like a baseball catcher framing a pitch that he knows is out of the strike zone to get a strike called) happen in about 100 percent of championship contests -- you think there's no holding in the Super Bowl (or no holding that players get away with), for instance? I wouldn't have as much of a problem with things like that. Raking the eyes, for instance. Or a low-blow when the ref is distracted. Things that the ref could conceivably miss. But stuff like a third party getting involved in the match. The ref getting KNOCKED OUT (Oh. I must've fallen asleep. Good thing I work up in time to count this finish.). That's the kind of stuff that drives me nuts and completely ruins my attempts at suspending disbelief. Look at last night. Rollins ran in and ruined the ending of a major PPV that people paid hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for. And he'll have like ZERO repercussions for doing it. That Tae Kwon Do guy who hit the ref in the previous Olympics had a lifetime ban from the sport *before he stepped out of the circle*. Mike Tyson, one of the biggest names in boxing was suspended for how long after the whole ear thing? But in WWE, anybody can wreck a million-dollar main event whenever the hell they want. It's (more) absurd (than usual)! Umm, it's professional wrestling. It's been going on for literally decades, the exact same things you describe. It's hard to get heat from the crowd with 'minor' infractions and except for the occasional angle where the banned guy comes back in a mask and everybody knows it's him and can't prove it, it would be kind of ridiculous to ban all the heels for a year or for life. In real life no cop ever managed to kill as many bad guys (justiably, of course) as John McCain, but try making the Die Hard series and be realistic and see how many people buy tickets. Same with wrestling: bad guys get heat for doing bad things and that gives the rub to the babyfaces who eventually overcome these foul tactics to put them in their place. I suspect you already understand this. There are forms of wrestling that are more "realistic" in the indies here and there ... but that doesn't seem to be what people want or those promotions would have long overtaken the "unrealistic" WWE. Look at the response on this thread: one way or another, people seem to want MORE cheating. If this particular form of entertainment isn't your bag, there are plent of others ... but heels aren't going to stop being heels because you think it isn't realistic.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 22, 2014 12:44:28 GMT -5
If anything heels need to cheat MORE. Part of the reason why faces outside of the main event look so weak is because they lose cleanly all the time. In some instances, Low card faces will actually lose cleanly to the comedy jobbers who are getting beaten up by everyone else (including Hornswoggle/celebrity guests) on RAW, and it makes them look bad because they just look like a "jobber to other jobbers". Yes, Zack Ryder will actually get jobbed out to Heath Slater so Heath can "build heat" to get Ballsplexed into a pile of dog poop by Nicki Minaj or something.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,510
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Post by Bo Rida on Sept 22, 2014 13:20:11 GMT -5
How about this? If your big (several hundred dollars per ticket, 50 on PPV, 9.99 on the network) ends with a blatant DQ, finish...everybody gets refunds. Every friggin' DIME. It's bad enough that this Calvinball-like BS happens on the undercard. But when your MAIN EVENT, the one match that everybody PAID to see is DQ/no contest... Fans have every right to demand compensation. They would just change the match order and call the Divas match the main event Oh so that's why The Bellas and Henry/Rusev have ended Raws lately, they're just getting people used to that idea.
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Post by molson5 on Sept 22, 2014 13:22:37 GMT -5
I love cheating. I love matches with interference. That's pro wrestling to me. I've always seen a win by cheating just as legitimate as any other win because cheating is in the regular and traditional arsenal of heels. If you're a babyface, you have to overcome that cheating to win. You have to neutralize the interfering manager, or take the weapon away before it can be used again you, or hold your own when the ref gets knocked out and guys jump in.
I respect people with the opposite preference, but not when they also constantly complain about wrestlers losing. Because here's the thing, if you want matches with definitive and decisive outcomes, then lots of guys have to lose definitively and decisively, and sometimes it has to be the guys you like. It's impossible for the company to match up with your booking preferences exactly.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Sept 22, 2014 13:27:53 GMT -5
I honestly don't think there is enough. There needs to be more of people using the ropes for leverage in submissions and pins, more eye pokes and back rakes, hook the tights and make it obvious (kudos to Miz on this one tonight) and so on. DQ's in the main event should be rare and that is why tonight wasn't horrible to me. Build to Brock now wanting to destroy Seth, Hunter, Cena and anyone else involved. Obviously not every heel should need to cheat but some should just because they're dicks. That should be Cesaro, all the talent in the world but "f*** you dude *eye poke*", while someone like Orton just tears you apart limb by limb and takes pleasure in it. Yeah, Ric Flair used to pull the tights or hold the ropes during matches just because he could not because he needed to.
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"Magic" Mark Hurr
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Here, have some chili dogs
Not related to Phantasmo
Posts: 15,718
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Sept 22, 2014 13:39:46 GMT -5
I'd rather have the dynamic of some heels cheat to win. Some heels are legit badassess that the face has to find a way to win through training and perseverance. Some heels cheat and have it blows up in their faces and still lose, and heels aren't brutes but are skilled technicians. Heels with cheating managers and valets and heels who can corrupt the system with other outside influences. These all can be defeated by a variety of faces and can lead to other variations in storytelling and evolutions if character.
The problem is that we are stuck with a heel type that can never really be defeated. Authority figures who are in real life control can never be ousted or defeated a pinfall here and there. This is too much like our lives. Our bosses and their bosses can conspire to f*** with our lives at work to increase their bottom line and unless there is some scandal that forces their firing we can never really win. And that doesn't mean we'll get magical raises and the key to the castle. That type of stuff is rare.
If anything I'd rather have wrestlers that cheat than authority figures who ultimately win regardless of anything.
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Crimson
Hank Scorpio
Thank you DWade
Posts: 6,511
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Post by Crimson on Sept 22, 2014 13:56:09 GMT -5
My only problem is refs are inconsistent with catching on to cheating. Like that I Quit match that Cena and Miz had.
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