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Post by -Lithium- on Sept 28, 2014 5:06:25 GMT -5
I was thinking. Why not have Bret face Taker for the title at Survivor Series. I don't think they ever had a rematch for Takers loss at Summerslam. Taker wins the belt. HBK beats him the next month, maybe due to Kane that could play a factor in setting up WM. That sets up things on the original timeline where HBK is the champion and he and Taker feud early into 98...
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Post by chazzbusby on Sept 28, 2014 5:52:43 GMT -5
Bret probably didn't want to drop to a dead man because it would have hurt his chances of ever starring in a zombie movie.
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Post by I'm Team Bayley and Indi on Sept 28, 2014 6:11:34 GMT -5
It's weird they are plenty of scenerios where Bret doesn't have to face Shawn at Survivor Series, they could of even had Bulldog or Owen beat Bret (I don't think it would have took long to build either up) then have them drop the title to Shawn at the December PPV.
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Post by mrtuesday on Sept 28, 2014 6:55:14 GMT -5
Vince wanted that WrestleMania 12 rematch he was denied when Shawn lost his smile, and he was going to make sure he got it. Bret's leaving? Last chance!
Bret knew this is what Vince wanted. Bret just didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn. Bret wanted to drop it to Ken Shamrock a week or two before the PPV, but was denied because Vince thought it would ruin his planed main event.
Bret and Shawn's final batlle would have still made money on that alone, the belt didn't need to be apart of it. However, I still think Vince was in the right. He's the boss. You do what the boss says, even on your last day on the job.
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Post by papagiorgio on Sept 28, 2014 7:00:22 GMT -5
I remember talk at the time that they were thinking of having Bret lose the title to Undertaker or some else at one of the house shows in Canada before Survivor Series, but Bret didn't want to lose the title period in Canada.
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Post by lesleymoon on Sept 28, 2014 11:08:35 GMT -5
Bret and Shawn's final batlle would have still made money on that alone, the belt didn't need to be apart of it. However, I still think Vince was in the right. He's the boss. You do what the boss says, even on your last day on the job. Except for the creative control clause that Bret had that allowed him to have control of his character in the last thirty days of his contract. So it was well within Bret's right to ask not to drop the belt in Canada. No, the screwjob was a big f*** you to Bret from Vince, plain and simple. There were a million ways they could have avoided it, but Vince's ego wouldn't let them happen, no matter the consequence.
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Post by Instant Classic on Sept 28, 2014 11:10:48 GMT -5
I like how everything went down.
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Post by chazzbusby on Sept 28, 2014 11:20:27 GMT -5
Badly run, not yet corporate WWE of the 90's was a joke. Hand shake agreements and relying on someones word played a massive part in the whole incident. Vince's panic attempt at getting the corporate contracts flowing was to sign Bret to a twenty year deal which was madness. Even madder I think was for Vince to tell Bret that the WWE would no longer be able to honour the contract before he had a chance to have Bret drop the title.
If Vince had just bluffed it and told Bret he was going to drop it on Raw and win it back at Survivor Series, I'm sure Bret would have said OK because as far as he knew he had 20 years left to go.
But instead you send him off to WCW, end a relationship Bret valued and basically put him in a bad mood and then try and negotiate the dropping of the title. But you weren't able to negotiate that because you decided for some reason that the one thing Bret needed on his way out was creative control.
Vince didn't play it well on the corporate side of things and when it all came down to it, he was relying on Bret's word and Bret's promise that he wouldn't take the belt to Nitro. Who knows what 90's pissed off Bret would really have done. It should never have been a possiblity.
Not that it would have made any difference really.
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Post by pepsitwist on Sept 28, 2014 11:41:27 GMT -5
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,928
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Post by Sephiroth on Sept 28, 2014 11:44:52 GMT -5
Montreal, much like Hogan and Nash, demonstrates some of the dangers of giving the wrestlers near total creative control
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Post by chazzbusby on Sept 28, 2014 11:54:59 GMT -5
It was a wake up call for the company. A lot of things in the 90's took them by surprise and showed them to be stuck in the olden days whilst trying to adapt to modern life.
Jim Ross signing talent on a hand shake, for example. Contracts being printed and signed whenever they had a moment but it was never too important as long as you'd shaken JR's hand.
I can imagine Vince going crazy about Rude turning up on Nitro and Ross just unable to process why Vince was yelling at him. Just repeating "But I shook his hand, we shook hands!" and then assuring Vince that the rest of the roster had recently shaken his hand too, so they weren't gonna go anywhere.
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Post by lesleymoon on Sept 28, 2014 12:12:18 GMT -5
But instead you send him off to WCW, end a relationship Bret valued and basically put him in a bad mood and then try and negotiate the dropping of the title. But you weren't able to negotiate that because you decided for some reason that the one thing Bret needed on his way out was creative control. Vince didn't play it well on the corporate side of things and when it all came down to it, he was relying on Bret's word and Bret's promise that he wouldn't take the belt to Nitro. Who knows what 90's pissed off Bret would really have done. It should never have been a possiblity. Except that the creative control clause was Bret's idea, not Vince's. Bret had seen the way that Vince had treated other superstars on their way out, and Bret wanted to protect himself, so when they negotiated the infamous 20 year contract, he had that added in. Basically, Bret got the better of Vince here, he was 'smarter' than Vince. Bret believes (and it makes sense) that Vince never forgave him for that, and so when he had the chance to screw Bret a year later, he did. And heres the thing, about the whole 'he might have taken the belt to Nitro, oh noes!' thing. Bret was never unwilling to drop the belt prior to Survivor Series. He was willing to drop the belt basically to whomever, wherever, so long as it wasn't in Canada. They had thirty days to get it off of him. It wasn't like he told them two days before Survivor Series.
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Post by chazzbusby on Sept 28, 2014 12:27:54 GMT -5
Yeah that was my point about the contract and creative control. Vince was adjusting, somewhat ill prepared and not the experienced corporate man he is today and he made a bad deal at a time of great worry and uncertainty.
Bret says that he was willing to drop it elsewhere, to someone other than Shawn but how much of that can we trust? Certainly the likes of Brisco, Patterson and Russo along with Vince have all suggested that Bret was offered all kinds of alternatives but was seemingly happy to let things progress slowly so as to build his position of power the closer it got to the PPV.
It all worked out for the best to be honest. Had Bret done the dirty and thrown the title in a garbage can on Nitro it would have made zero impact. Fans would tune in to see him do it, the WCW fans would stick around and the WWE fans would go see what WWE was gonna do next.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 28, 2014 12:42:08 GMT -5
I've never subscribed to the "he's the boss. You have to do what your told" thing when it comes to independent contractors, who by the very nature of their profession are a brand unto themselves and such, often have to protect that brand from circumstances that do damage to their character. Which Montreal would have been since HBK was the very catalyst for Bret's turn, and entire character philosophy and Canada vs the U.S., in Canada, being won by Shawn would have been the equivalent of Slaughter beating Hogan at WrestleMania 7.
Bret also had reasonable creative control in his contract. He also legally could not show up on WCW TV until December the next month. Bischoff also agreed in writing to not mention the WWF Title on air, and would not have, because he had just recently been defeated in court for the whole Razor and Diesel allusion on Nitro building to the Bash, and now, this was even more concrete since his written word was in play. Vince had 60 full days from the time he let his Champion out of his contract to take the belt off of him.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Sept 28, 2014 12:46:04 GMT -5
Correct me if I am wrong. But legally Bret couldn't take the belt with him anywhere due to his contract right? I remember reading that somewhere.
Edit: Just read that Careless said.
Since he couldn't take the belt anywhere legally, why was Vince so afraid of him showing up on Nitro with it?
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,580
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Post by Renslayer on Sept 28, 2014 12:57:28 GMT -5
Was Undertaker even on TV at the time? After the Cell match, he sort of disappeared for a while
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Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
TAFKA roidzilla and SUFFERIN' SUCCOTASH SON!
Posts: 8,784
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Sept 28, 2014 13:33:01 GMT -5
a televised Bret/Taker rematch happened at One Night Only iirc
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Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
TAFKA roidzilla and SUFFERIN' SUCCOTASH SON!
Posts: 8,784
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Sept 28, 2014 13:39:56 GMT -5
oh and I would have preferred Taker leaving Summerslam as champ with Shawn costing Bret the match
Ground Zero: Bret beats HBK
Badd Blood: HBK beats Bret in a streetfight thanks to DX
SS: HBK/Taker 1, no contest (see real Ground Zero)
IYH DX: Taker/HBK cell match, Kane interferes, HBK wins
this way you have no Patriot in a title match, no disgruntled Bret having to drop a title, a longer Taker reign (which he deserved imo), Kane only debuting in December (shorter wait til their match)
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Post by PTBartman on Sept 28, 2014 17:36:27 GMT -5
It's weird they are plenty of scenerios where Bret doesn't have to face Shawn at Survivor Series, they could of even had Bulldog or Owen beat Bret (I don't think it would have took long to build either up) then have them drop the title to Shawn at the December PPV. I would have had Owen and Bulldog constantly criticizing him in the build and finally just exploding in an interview, screaming You think it's Easy? you think you can do better? Screw that! Get a (bleepin) ref down here. Then he lies down. Davey and Owen scramble to be the one to get the cover. Bret gets up, stares at the winnner and snarls, "Good luck! I don't need this crap." and storms out.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 28, 2014 18:58:25 GMT -5
The moment Bret agreed to leave, they should have had him drop the belt to Taker or Shamrock at the first opportunity with a greater goal in mind. It doesn't matter what long term booking plans were, no matter how much Shawn desperately wanted one final win over his enemy, they should have freed Bret up to do something important on his way out, putting over Steve Austin. Bret was tight with him, the pair had amazing chemistry in the ring and Austin was overdue a clean win so Bret's last match for the WWF should have ended with him laying for the three count at Survivor series after a great match.
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