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Post by Rolent Tex on Nov 26, 2014 0:06:26 GMT -5
They're talking about getting the cameras for our police force over a major incident that happened last Thanksgiving with a retiree dying I police custody. A couple of the cons the police chief was bringing up were that it's possible they could fly off if they got in a scuffle with someone and that people might be wary coming to an on duty cop with information if they're being taped.
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Urethra Franklin
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Nov 26, 2014 0:07:28 GMT -5
But the inconsistent reports present probable cause. They simply outline the need for an indictment. The bar for probable cause is insanely low 99 times out of 100. The thing is though we don't really know 100% what is still inconsistent. Just because person A says something different than person B doesn't necessarily mean that both are credible. Many "witnesses" were discredited as either lying completely or saying things "based on what they heard" which completely discredited their views. After all of that, it seems to me that the only thing people REALLY were uncertain of when combining the DNA evidence, the autopsy, and the credible witnesses was what Brown was doing with his hands, though most seemed to say that he didn't have his hands up to surrender at the least. Right, but inconsistency doesn't equate with a lack of credibility. That Witness A and Witness B say two contradicting things doesn't necessarily mean one is fabricating something. Now, if Witness A says that Michael Brown got out of a car and Witness B says that there was no car, clearly something is amiss with one of them, but when you're taking into account different vantage points or what each particular witness was focusing on at any given time, you could very well end with inconsistencies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 0:08:46 GMT -5
They understand the legal system. You just don't seem to understand why people think the entire investigation and indictment process has been compromised at an institutional level, given the DA's biased background and the history of problems and abuse by "the man" in that town. Because not everything has to be a conspiracy. The idea that institutionalized racism is a "conspiracy" is probably the most ridiculous thing stated in this thread. And that's saying a lot.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 26, 2014 0:14:48 GMT -5
The thing is though we don't really know 100% what is still inconsistent. Just because person A says something different than person B doesn't necessarily mean that both are credible. Many "witnesses" were discredited as either lying completely or saying things "based on what they heard" which completely discredited their views. After all of that, it seems to me that the only thing people REALLY were uncertain of when combining the DNA evidence, the autopsy, and the credible witnesses was what Brown was doing with his hands, though most seemed to say that he didn't have his hands up to surrender at the least. Right, but inconsistency doesn't equate with a lack of credibility. That Witness A and Witness B say two contradicting things doesn't necessarily mean one is fabricating something. Now, if Witness A says that Michael Brown got out of a car and Witness B says that there was no car, clearly something is amiss with one of them, but when you're taking into account different vantage points or what each particular witness was focusing on at any given time, you could very well end with inconsistencies. The DA flat out said that many of the witnesses were disproven as being full of shit when other evidence was brought up. Like the people who said he was shot in the back, when the autopsy says he wasn't. Others admitted to making up stuff based on "what they heard." So a lot of the things you heard on tv beforehand were proven as being bullshit during the grand jury process, you just never found out until last night. Because not everything has to be a conspiracy. The idea that institutionalized racism is a "conspiracy" is probably the most ridiculous thing stated in this thread. And that's saying a lot. Not every black guy shot by a white cop has to be a conspiracy that the "mean old whitey shot a guy he thinks is a n**** because he's a racist" Maybe the cop acted how he's supposed to. Maybe his life was in danger. Maybe he had to shoot the guy. My point is there's plenty of incidents where shit is wrong, but to me this wasn't the one for people to get this crazy about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 0:26:55 GMT -5
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 26, 2014 0:33:47 GMT -5
Fantastic. I need to get into the lab tomorrow to do some work. If protests are still ongoing tomorrow I might have to find an alternate route into work, though if the protests are focused on campus that won't even be an option.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 1:17:15 GMT -5
The National Bar Association Calls for Federal Charges Against Darren Wilson....
The National Bar Association...I mean, they know law stuff right?
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 26, 2014 1:23:53 GMT -5
The National Bar Association Calls for Federal Charges Against Darren Wilson.... The National Bar Association...I mean, they know law stuff right? They do. They push for this since they know that an indictment should have been possible had the grand jury proceedings been handled semi-competently by McCollough. They also would know that federal charges are the only options now. They also should know that federal charges will be a long shot while local charges could have been much easier to convict on. I suppose that they just find the handling of the grand jury proceedings as offensive as I do, or even moreso as they would understand it all in ways I do not.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2014 1:24:08 GMT -5
Thing is, going to trial wouldn't have resolved the inconsistent reports. They'd still be just as stuck trying to figure out what happened, just with more expenses. But the inconsistent reports present probable cause. They simply outline the need for an indictment. The bar for probable cause is insanely low 99 times out of 100. Not only that, but an actual trial would've given a chance for something the DA, in this case, completely ignored: cross examination. Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable ( Rashomon effect and all), and a trained lawyer can at least try to find something deeper in the words of those accounts by questioning witnesses. Part of what was so strange about this grand jury hearing was that McCulloch, the DA, didn't seem to push back at all on most of the testimony, particularly the testimony that aided Wilson. That almost never happens in these situations. Lisa Bloom laid it out pretty well on Twitter, compiled here on Vox: www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/25/7285265/darren-wilson-grand-jury/in/7041840
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Post by Rolent Tex on Nov 26, 2014 1:32:56 GMT -5
The National Bar Association Calls for Federal Charges Against Darren Wilson.... The National Bar Association...I mean, they know law stuff right? They may know law stuff, but they basically are saying, "What is this Grand Jury? f***ing stupid? How dare they! Are they blind to not see the truth like us?" Then there's also what the NBA actually is and how it got founded but I'm less concerned with them originally being titled the Negro Bar Association and more with them basically telling a jury they're full of shit than calling out how the entire thing was ran.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2014 1:38:25 GMT -5
The National Bar Association Calls for Federal Charges Against Darren Wilson.... The National Bar Association...I mean, they know law stuff right? They may know law stuff, but they basically are saying, "What is this Grand Jury? f***ing stupid? How dare they! Are they blind to not see the truth like us?" Then there's also what the NBA actually is and how it got founded but I'm less concerned with them originally being titled the Negro Bar Association and more with them basically telling a jury they're full of shit than calling out how the entire thing was ran. Well, there's still federal statutes at stake here; it's already been mentioned that Brown's family will likely seek legal redress via federal court since the GJ in Missouri went the way it did; it's not much of a stretch, just basic federalism, no critique of the GJ in Missouri necessary.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 26, 2014 1:45:29 GMT -5
The National Bar Association Calls for Federal Charges Against Darren Wilson.... The National Bar Association...I mean, they know law stuff right? They may know law stuff, but they basically are saying, "What is this Grand Jury? f***ing stupid? How dare they! Are they blind to not see the truth like us?" Then there's also what the NBA actually is and how it got founded but I'm less concerned with them originally being titled the Negro Bar Association and more with them basically telling a jury they're full of shit than calling out how the entire thing was ran. Upon better reading their statement, it seems as though your analysis of their statement might be correct. If so, what did they expect? Grand juries are not comprised of lawyers. They depend on the prosecutor and the judge to guide them, and the judge is limited by what the prosecutor presents. The prosecutor did not cross examine Wilson or the witness that supported his story. He let them present their stories as fact. I have not seen the actual transcript to know if McCollough presented the other witnesses' testimonies to the grand jury and if he cross examined them to discredit them if he had (which his 20+ minute statement suggests he did). In short, the grand jury really had no choice than to acquit. The prosecutor apparently did not present enough evidence to suggest that charges were called for. It's as simple as that. Blaming the members of the grand jury is nonsensical.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 1:52:47 GMT -5
The National Bar Association Calls for Federal Charges Against Darren Wilson.... The National Bar Association...I mean, they know law stuff right? They may know law stuff, but they basically are saying, "What is this Grand Jury? f***ing stupid? How dare they! Are they blind to not see the truth like us?" Then there's also what the NBA actually is and how it got founded but I'm less concerned with them originally being titled the Negro Bar Association and more with them basically telling a jury they're full of shit than calling out how the entire thing was ran. Actually they weren't calling anyone stupid on the GJ.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2014 1:54:19 GMT -5
Oh my God, if you guys get a chance, read the document with "Witness #40's" testimony.
It's...completely fake. Seriously. It's a journal written by a guy/gal who says he/she wanted to go on a journey of discovery to stop being a racist, and the day he/she starts the journal he/she JUST SO HAPPENS to come upon the Brown/Wilson confrontation, and has an account that almost perfectly matches Wilson's. It goes on to describe the lovely people of Ferguson, and dwell on how unfortunate the whole thing was.
It's freaking surreal.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 26, 2014 2:03:34 GMT -5
Oh my God, if you guys get a chance, read the document with "Witness #40's" testimony. It's...completely fake. Seriously. It's a journal written by a guy/gal who says he/she wanted to go on a journey of discovery to stop being a racist, and the day he/she starts the journal he/she JUST SO HAPPENS to come upon the Brown/Wilson confrontation, and has an account that almost perfectly matches Wilson's. It goes on to describe the lovely people of Ferguson, and dwell on how unfortunate the whole thing was. It's freaking surreal. I just read it, or as well as I could before my brain screamed at me for exposing it to such inanity. THIS was actually submitted into evidence? Did that witness actually even testify in front of the grand jury?
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Post by Rolent Tex on Nov 26, 2014 7:51:04 GMT -5
They may know law stuff, but they basically are saying, "What is this Grand Jury? f***ing stupid? How dare they! Are they blind to not see the truth like us?" Then there's also what the NBA actually is and how it got founded but I'm less concerned with them originally being titled the Negro Bar Association and more with them basically telling a jury they're full of shit than calling out how the entire thing was ran. Actually they weren't calling anyone stupid on the GJ. They didn't come out and call them that but they questioned how they could come to that conclusion with the evidence presented to them. If they're lawyers and judges worth anything at all they know that answer with how it was run and with the fact that witnesses weren't cross examined.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Nov 26, 2014 8:33:27 GMT -5
Right, but inconsistency doesn't equate with a lack of credibility. That Witness A and Witness B say two contradicting things doesn't necessarily mean one is fabricating something. Now, if Witness A says that Michael Brown got out of a car and Witness B says that there was no car, clearly something is amiss with one of them, but when you're taking into account different vantage points or what each particular witness was focusing on at any given time, you could very well end with inconsistencies. The DA flat out said that many of the witnesses were disproven as being full of shit when other evidence was brought up. Like the people who said he was shot in the back, when the autopsy says he wasn't. Others admitted to making up stuff based on "what they heard." So a lot of the things you heard on tv beforehand were proven as being bullshit during the grand jury process, you just never found out until last night. The idea that institutionalized racism is a "conspiracy" is probably the most ridiculous thing stated in this thread. And that's saying a lot. Not every black guy shot by a white cop has to be a conspiracy that the "mean old whitey shot a guy he thinks is a n**** because he's a racist" Maybe the cop acted how he's supposed to. Maybe his life was in danger. Maybe he had to shoot the guy. My point is there's plenty of incidents where shit is wrong, but to me this wasn't the one for people to get this crazy about. I've tried to stay out of the Ferguson discussion somewhat. Facebook tends to lend itself to drama and I don't know about you, but I have a lot of friends who are conservative and liberal. One of the reasons I like this forum is we tend to stay out of political discussion. That being said I saw this on reddit and thought it was a reasonable response. Mods if this seems out of line please remove. link
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Nov 26, 2014 9:02:23 GMT -5
My bottom line from what I've read of the case is that kids shouldn't be shot dead for doing something marginally stupid, or at least not the kind of stupid thing Brown could have looked back on and learned from had he lived.
Sorry if that's not the most articulate thought on the matter, but I do second all of the posts here pointing out the systematic issues at play here. These are the kinds of things we eventually need to deal with, for the sake of the collective good and not just one group of people.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Nov 26, 2014 9:06:25 GMT -5
Not gonna comment much about the trial itself.
Just interesting to see that while in oen country people are complaining about the violence of policeman, my home country is complaining that police had their use of firearm limited.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2014 9:47:53 GMT -5
Oh my God, if you guys get a chance, read the document with "Witness #40's" testimony. It's...completely fake. Seriously. It's a journal written by a guy/gal who says he/she wanted to go on a journey of discovery to stop being a racist, and the day he/she starts the journal he/she JUST SO HAPPENS to come upon the Brown/Wilson confrontation, and has an account that almost perfectly matches Wilson's. It goes on to describe the lovely people of Ferguson, and dwell on how unfortunate the whole thing was. It's freaking surreal. I just read it, or as well as I could before my brain screamed at me for exposing it to such inanity. THIS was actually submitted into evidence? Did that witness actually even testify in front of the grand jury? Nope: they just submitted the journal, no physical witness.
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