The Jimquisition - How Invention Killed A Hedgehog

[The Sam]

Following the disastrous Sonic Boom game, Jim Sterling looks at how constant rebooting has destroyed the series' potential.

[Hurbster]

Glad to see Jim going completely independant.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

I'm more or less "defiantly" a Sonic fan at this point. Not to a melodramatic degree or anything, but I've gotten to where I don't care what people think about it.

Sega could release a game where Sonic doesn't run at all, the gameplay could just be him eating a bunch of chili dogs and occasionally getting up to go to the bathroom, and it could be glitchy as hell, and I'd still be like "yeah, but....SatAM..."

[Deleted]

I agree with the overall point. Change too much, and fans get really wrapped up in it. It's also hard to keep people into a series when no two games feel alike. You'd be targeting different audiences with each one, and that definitely precludes earning strong fan loyalty.

If you've got to change features, change the ones people don't like. Mass Effect was acclaimed but featured complaints about the Mako, complaints about inventory management, complaints about combat and the power suites, and complaints about rigidity in dialogue choices. All four of those got fixed in ME2.

On the other hand, something like CoD can be unsustainable because there aren't enough changes. It just depends on the game and what people think. I don't follow the Sonic games very closely so I can't comment fully, but is Sega tone-deaf as to what most of the fans want?

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Nov 25, 2014 0:27:52 GMT -5 @mightykretzler said:

I agree with the overall point. Change too much, and fans get really wrapped up in it. It's also hard to keep people into a series when no two games feel alike. You'd be targeting different audiences with each one, and that definitely precludes earning strong fan loyalty.

If you've got to change features, change the ones people don't like. Mass Effect was acclaimed but featured complaints about the Mako, complaints about inventory management, complaints about combat and the power suites, and complaints about rigidity in dialogue choices. All four of those got fixed in ME2.

On the other hand, something like CoD can be unsustainable because there aren't enough changes. It just depends on the game and what people think. I don't follow the Sonic games very closely so I can't comment fully, but is Sega tone-deaf as to what most of the fans want?

No, the Sonic fandom is just (and always has been) very fragmented for a while. Not just with how fans want different things gameplay wise, but what his entire mythos should be.

There's the main Sega canon, the Adventures of Sonic syndicated show, the ABC cartoon (SatAM), Sonic Underground, the Archie Sonic comics which mixes the Sega and SatAM worlds, Sonic X, Sonic Boom, a Sonic anime movie and a UK Sonic comic where Golden Sonic is evil. They all present him in a different fashion.

[Eunös ✈]

In it's defence I've quite enjoyed the Cartoon.

For once the Sonic series doesn't take itself to seriously, for what it's worth I quite like the re designs, Even Roid Rage Knuckles

Not played the game though so I can't comment on that.

[Mozenrath]

I can kind of accept Knuckles with a bigger body. I think the only design that bothers me is Sonic's, where I wish they hadn't changed it all that much. The series definitely needed a little bit of a nudge away from _____ the ______ cookie cutter sameness.

That said, I think they kind of get too ambitious sometimes and bite off more than they can chew. They keep trying this open world thing and it's not working for them, when you have stuff like Colors or the GBA games where it just worked better by having more modest goals. Though, Sonic 4 kinda sucks, so that isn't necessarily the answer, either.

[Jiren]

I've been with Sonic from the start and fair enough it's had some miss steps but more often than not I've liked his games.

I thought they had found a winning formula in Sonic Generations (Which I loved), They could have just did them every 2 years with new levels & Story and I would have been happy.

They need to realize Fans don't like deviations (Look how well the Handheld game do), Nintendo were smart with Mario and every misstep (Sunshine....Which I loved BTW, But alot seemed to hate) they went back to what worked (Mario Galaxy is just a modified Mario 64).

Sega should do that with Sonic, Stop piling gimmick after gimmick on it.

[Ultimo Gallos]

Loved Sonic 1,2,3 and Knuckles on the Genesis. But the next Sonic game I played was Sonic Adventures on the Dreamcast. It is a fun game but doesn't feel like the classic Sonic games. Heard the games I haven't played are not that good. Might one day check them out. Also keep hearing how good the Archie Sonic comic is. They must be doing something right,cause it has been around what 10 years. Sells well and is one of the few non-manga comics I can find in non-comic shops.

[HMARK Center]

Nov 25, 2014 1:28:06 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Nov 25, 2014 0:27:52 GMT -5 @mightykretzler said:

I agree with the overall point. Change too much, and fans get really wrapped up in it. It's also hard to keep people into a series when no two games feel alike. You'd be targeting different audiences with each one, and that definitely precludes earning strong fan loyalty.

If you've got to change features, change the ones people don't like. Mass Effect was acclaimed but featured complaints about the Mako, complaints about inventory management, complaints about combat and the power suites, and complaints about rigidity in dialogue choices. All four of those got fixed in ME2.

On the other hand, something like CoD can be unsustainable because there aren't enough changes. It just depends on the game and what people think. I don't follow the Sonic games very closely so I can't comment fully, but is Sega tone-deaf as to what most of the fans want?

No, the Sonic fandom is just (and always has been) very fragmented for a while. Not just with how fans want different things gameplay wise, but what his entire mythos should be.

There's the main Sega canon, the Adventures of Sonic syndicated show, the ABC cartoon (SatAM), Sonic Underground, the Archie Sonic comics which mixes the Sega and SatAM worlds, Sonic X, Sonic Boom, a Sonic anime movie and a UK Sonic comic where Golden Sonic is evil. They all present him in a different fashion.

They've never really been able to deal with that. In an odd way, Sonic being presented in so many different ways is probably what made him so popular in the early-to-mid 90s, even more popular than Mario for awhile. Sega of America and Sega of Europe were able to present Sonic in a way that appealed more to their local audiences, through the comics and cartoon shows, and since the Genesis/Mega Drive games weren't explicit in their characterizations (beyond "Sonic has an attitude") or even their settings (it's Mobius, but all the levels are incredibly varied, not much lore to fall back on), fans could use those other formats to fill in the blanks, sort of a way for Sonic to appeal to all these different audiences with different tastes and backgrounds.

Seems to me the crap started hitting the wall once Sega of Japan began to streamline everything, and start including more heavy characterization in the games. To me, that's what Nintendo was always smart about when dealing with Mario: Mario has a personality, sure, but his world is constantly changing, and players are pretty much free to, again, fill in the blanks concerning a lot about Mario's world, character, etc.

[Burst]

Yeah, Sonic has always sort of had the whole "too many cooks" thing going on but they've sort of made it work in an unintentional Legend of Zelda sort of way. It really was when Sega of Japan was like "No, OUR way is the ONLY way" that you really started seeing the fandom split. It hasn't helped that there's been no consistent vision either way since at least on the games front. It's pretty telling that as far as I can tell the most positively received aspect of the Sonic franchise right now is the Archie comic, and I'd like to think that's because since Ian Flynn took over and got the last bit of Penders out of the system, they've actually had continuity and been pretty consistent.

[Crimson]

Nov 25, 2014 6:41:44 GMT -5 Ultimo Gallos said:

Loved Sonic 1,2,3 and Knuckles on the Genesis. But the next Sonic game I played was Sonic Adventures on the Dreamcast. It is a fun game but doesn't feel like the classic Sonic games. Heard the games I haven't played are not that good. Might one day check them out. Also keep hearing how good the Archie Sonic comic is. They must be doing something right,cause it has been around what 10 years. Sells well and is one of the few non-manga comics I can find in non-comic shops.

Sonic Heroes was ok.

Sonic 2006 was trash.

Sonic Unleashed started off promising but then Sega decided to make the Werehog a thing.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Nov 25, 2014 8:46:59 GMT -5 Burst said:

Yeah, Sonic has always sort of had the whole "too many cooks" thing going on but they've sort of made it work in an unintentional Legend of Zelda sort of way. It really was when Sega of Japan was like "No, OUR way is the ONLY way" that you really started seeing the fandom split. It hasn't helped that there's been no consistent vision either way since at least on the games front. It's pretty telling that as far as I can tell the most positively received aspect of the Sonic franchise right now is the Archie comic, and I'd like to think that's because since Ian Flynn took over and got the last bit of Penders out of the system, they've actually had continuity and been pretty consistent.

Oh yeah, the Archie book's been on a hot streak for a while. The downside to that is Penders's dispute left them unable use to a number of original characters I think he had a hand in (many of Knuckles's relatives he designed, Sally's brother, etc), but they're doing a decent job with what they still have.

[xCompackx]

Nov 25, 2014 8:58:42 GMT -5 Crimson said:

Nov 25, 2014 6:41:44 GMT -5 Ultimo Gallos said:

Loved Sonic 1,2,3 and Knuckles on the Genesis. But the next Sonic game I played was Sonic Adventures on the Dreamcast. It is a fun game but doesn't feel like the classic Sonic games. Heard the games I haven't played are not that good. Might one day check them out. Also keep hearing how good the Archie Sonic comic is. They must be doing something right,cause it has been around what 10 years. Sells well and is one of the few non-manga comics I can find in non-comic shops.

Sonic Heroes was ok.

Sonic 2006 was trash.

Sonic Unleashed started off promising but then Sega decided to make the Werehog a thing.

Sonic Heroes was alright, but that's the game where the glitches started to get really bad at times. I tend to forgive Sonic Adventure since it was the first fully 3D Sonic game and there were bound to be some glitches but by the time Sonic Heroes came out, Sega should've had at least a minor handle on 3D Sonic (especially since Sonic Adventure 2 was so good).

[Crimson]

Having watched the video now, he definitely hit the nail on the head.

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

He makes some great point, but man do I hate that guy.

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2014 14:03:02 GMT -5 Mighty Attack Tribble said:

He makes some great point, but man do I hate that guy.

Apparently Sega doesn't think too highly of him either. They sent him a review copy of Colors with a drawing of him as a troll.

EDIT: I'm glad I'm not the only one singing the praises of the handheld games (granted they were not as good as the Genesis series, but definitely kept the series afloat during the dark ages of Shadow and '06).