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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 25, 2014 2:26:49 GMT -5
The reaction is the problem though. If the response is to mope around backstage and bitch discretely to Meltzer rather than outright confronting Vince on it, maybe it shows maybe he had a point after all? There'd be a time when the guys in the back would have confronted Vince directly over what he said. Sure there's no union but there's still collective power and influence. You don't even need the top guys to get involved, if everyone is so upset and angry get 20 of you to demand changes/an explanation. Vince is there to be challenged - look at his history, he's used to and probably prefers people who can confront him. Maybe his comments were intended to provoke a reaction. It's a cancerous combination - stale mid-90s level creative and a locker room who when push comes to shove are happy just to collect the pay cheque. In the 90s you had members of the roster actively pushing McMahon to change direction and he eventually did, now we don't even have that. There's nobody wih the clout to confront Vince on his bullshit. It was easy to do that in the 90s. If a wrestler was unhappy in WWE, they could say "Peace out bitch" and go to WCW. There is no option like that for them now. And Vince isn't going to reward someone for getting in his face unless that person is already a proven commodity that Vince knows is perfectly capable of making money without WWE. The fact that Vince supposedly likes assholes is supposedly common knowledge. So if "get in Vince's face and he rewarded" we're that simple, everyone would be doing it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 2:32:56 GMT -5
The reaction is the problem though. If the response is to mope around backstage and bitch discretely to Meltzer rather than outright confronting Vince on it, maybe it shows maybe he had a point after all? There'd be a time when the guys in the back would have confronted Vince directly over what he said. Sure there's no union but there's still collective power and influence. You don't even need the top guys to get involved, if everyone is so upset and angry get 20 of you to demand changes/an explanation. Vince is there to be challenged - look at his history, he's used to and probably prefers people who can confront him. Maybe his comments were intended to provoke a reaction. It's a cancerous combination - stale mid-90s level creative and a locker room who when push comes to shove are happy just to collect the pay cheque. In the 90s you had members of the roster actively pushing McMahon to change direction and he eventually did, now we don't even have that. There's nobody wih the clout to confront Vince on his bullshit. Of course this is based on nothing but speculation but I think a guy like Cesaro could walk in and say "this is bullshit I was on the brink of something and you f***ed it up, do something about it" and probably come out the better for it, it's just when you tally up the amount of guys who have legitimate qualms with how they're being used, if they all took Vince's advice I'm sure it would be a bloodbath and would likely perpetuate Vince's self fulfilling prophecy that his roster are spoiled, entitled millennials bitching because their talent could only take them so far.
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Boo!
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Post by Boo! on Dec 25, 2014 2:35:21 GMT -5
I think a bloodbath would be great. Not literally of course but if everyone had that 'asshole, out for themselves, politicking jerk' attitude the product would improve greatly. If people are scratching, clawing and backstabbing to get over then it's great for fans.
You take a gimmick creative give you and you demnd changes, you tailor an ill-fitting gimmick to be more in-line with your personality which means you're able to pull it off better. You get told someone else is going over - you call bullshit, demand a re-write because you don't think it makes sense and doesn't protect you character. That's what should happen.
Not:
"Oh this is my gimmick. Okay"
"I'm losing again tonight? Okay"
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 25, 2014 2:42:19 GMT -5
I think a bloodbath would be great. Not literally of course but if everyone had that 'asshole, out for themselves, politicking jerk' attitude the product would improve greatly. If people are scratching, clawing and backstabbing to get over then it's great for fans. You take a gimmick creative give you and you demnd changes, you tailor an ill-fitting gimmick to be more in-line with your personality which means you're able to pull it off better. You get told someone else is going over - you call bullshit, demand a re-write because you don't think it makes sense and doesn't protect you character. That's what should happen. Not: "Oh this is my gimmick. Okay" "I'm losing again tonight? Okay" Then nothing gets done because now the Creative Team are too busy trying to make sure no one's feelings get hurt and The wrestlers are constantly arguing. You seem to be suggesting that Vince and Creative should intentionally continue to book perfectly talented performers badly until someone "does something about it". Your idea seems like it would eventually fester an environment where he slightest disagreement can turn a match into a shoot and lead to fights backstage.
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Post by lildude8218 on Dec 25, 2014 2:44:03 GMT -5
if Low Morale is gonna be backstage all the time then they just need to sign him already. it's bullshit that he shows up at nearly every taping but then only wrestles on indies in the Northeast.
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Dec 25, 2014 2:45:09 GMT -5
I think a bloodbath would be great. Not literally of course but if everyone had that 'asshole, out for themselves, politicking jerk' attitude the product would improve greatly. If people are scratching, clawing and backstabbing to get over then it's great for fans. You take a gimmick creative give you and you demnd changes, you tailor an ill-fitting gimmick to be more in-line with your personality which means you're able to pull it off better. You get told someone else is going over - you call bullshit, demand a re-write because you don't think it makes sense and doesn't protect you character. That's what should happen. Not: "Oh this is my gimmick. Okay" "I'm losing again tonight? Okay" I agree with you on this. I've watched Austin's 3 dvd set. He clearly wasn't satisfied being lower card and when he did get a push, he made damn sure to make full use of it. Having a push from management is part of it to be sure, but I just don't see anyone reeeeaally trying to stand out. Just putting on a good match isn't enough anymore. Gotta do or say something that when your music hits next time, people take notice.
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schma
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Post by schma on Dec 25, 2014 2:45:56 GMT -5
I think a bloodbath would be great. Not literally of course but if everyone had that 'asshole, out for themselves, politicking jerk' attitude the product would improve greatly. If people are scratching, clawing and backstabbing to get over then it's great for fans. You take a gimmick creative give you and you demnd changes, you tailor an ill-fitting gimmick to be more in-line with your personality which means you're able to pull it off better. You get told someone else is going over - you call bullshit, demand a re-write because you don't think it makes sense and doesn't protect you character. That's what should happen. Not: "Oh this is my gimmick. Okay" "I'm losing again tonight? Okay" New Generation and the Kliq anyone? Total boom period. Back when there was relevant competition standing up to Vince was likely easier (not easy but easier) because there were valid options. Now he can just laugh in your face and say 'what? You're going to go to TNA?" then turn to creative and tell them to bury the guy hard because he's stuck in his contract.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 25, 2014 2:47:25 GMT -5
Like I said, he would have known beforehand that Vince didn't think much of him. The shitty booking would have proven that. My guess is that he's content to simply stay in WWE until they release him, confident that he can make money in Japan or on the indie scene after getting some WWE exposure for a few years. So? I don't get how you can say they shouldn't have lower morale because "oh they already knew, why be bothered?" It's still a public statement made in front of hundreds of thousands of people, as opposed to murmurs backstage. It's like you're belittling them for having feelings or something. Not belittling. But if morale actually was affected by the interview, the roster either needs a tougher skin, or needs to face up to reality. WWE already give a public statement every week as to how little they regard most of their roster. It's called "WWE Monday Night RAW"
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Dec 25, 2014 2:53:41 GMT -5
The reaction is the problem though. If the response is to mope around backstage and bitch discretely to Meltzer rather than outright confronting Vince on it, maybe it shows maybe he had a point after all? There'd be a time when the guys in the back would have confronted Vince directly over what he said. Sure there's no union but there's still collective power and influence. You don't even need the top guys to get involved, if everyone is so upset and angry get 20 of you to demand changes/an explanation. Vince is there to be challenged - look at his history, he's used to and probably prefers people who can confront him. Maybe his comments were intended to provoke a reaction. It's a cancerous combination - stale mid-90s level creative and a locker room who when push comes to shove are happy just to collect the pay cheque. In the 90s you had members of the roster actively pushing McMahon to change direction and he eventually did, now we don't even have that. He'll like guys confronting him...until he doesn't. And given that he's batshit insane, whether or not he likes a guy confronting him will come down to maybe how much gas he has on a given day. If his farts are particularly bad, he may be happy you confronted him because he'll be too busy laughing at his stenches; too middling, and he'll be frustrated and toss your ass out. It's not like Vince is always happy to see guys call him out for bullshit, and these guys don't have another major national/international company to jump to. It's easy to say "just man up and challenge him!' when it isn't your job, well being, and family's income on the line. Not to mention the edict: "Don't piss people off."
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Boo!
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Post by Boo! on Dec 25, 2014 2:53:59 GMT -5
I don't wish to appear entirely unsympathetic to their grievances but many do earn 6-figure sums and most could make a decent living outside WWE working independent dates. They're not Joe six-pack living off minimum wage who is terrified of saying boo to a goose because working and not is the difference between eating that week or not.
A lot of them earn more in a year than most people do in 10. I'm not saying this doesn't give them the right to be unhappy at work but I do sort of dismiss the insinuation that they have no choice and that they're poor, enslaved, serfs. Even if TV competition doesn't exist, practically all of them have the opportunity to make far more than most average people on the indy scene and those that don't want to have the financial security to go back to college and train to be something else.
I really don't have much sympathy for the 'they can't say anything for fear of losing their jobs' argument. They have far more security behind them to stand up to their boss than the vast majority, and others without their security manage it.
You want to see low morale - speak to the kid at Burger King who's been told unless he works his 17th consecutive night shift he can wave the job goodbye. Not a wrestler with $750,000 in the bank and a $200,000 downside guarantee with a 'woe is me' attitude.
If you earn that sort of money, or even half or even a quarter, and you're terrified of standing up to your boss - grow a pair.
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babyfootball
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Post by babyfootball on Dec 25, 2014 3:39:44 GMT -5
I don't wish to appear entirely unsympathetic to their grievances but many do earn 6-figure sums and most could make a decent living outside WWE working independent dates. They're not Joe six-pack living off minimum wage who is terrified of saying boo to a goose because working and not is the difference between eating that week or not. A lot of them earn more in a year than most people do in 10. I'm not saying this doesn't give them the right to be unhappy at work but I do sort of dismiss the insinuation that they have no choice and that they're poor, enslaved, serfs. Even if TV competition doesn't exist, practically all of them have the opportunity to make far more than most average people on the indy scene and those that don't want to have the financial security to go back to college and train to be something else. I really don't have much sympathy for the 'they can't say anything for fear of losing their jobs' argument. They have far more security behind them to stand up to their boss than the vast majority, and others without their security manage it. You want to see low morale - speak to the kid at Burger King who's been told unless he works his 17th consecutive night shift he can wave the job goodbye. Not a wrestler with $750,000 in the bank and a $200,000 downside guarantee with a 'woe is me' attitude. If you earn that sort of money, or even half or even a quarter, and you're terrified of standing up to your boss - grow a pair. This argument kinda sucks. It's tantamount to siding with the owners in major professional sports league labor disputes. These billionaire owners, who gouge for money in every way they know how, somehow manage to convince the public that it's all the "greedy" players' fault that they can't reach an agreement. When in reality, if it weren't for players/wrestlers, there would be no product to sell and thus no money to be made. And it's not the sort of thing that any idiot on the street can do... there's a reason (supply and demand) that they command the prices that they do: somebody's willing to pay it (capitalism)! Of course, that's one of the main problems right now: demand. Because Vince is all there is. Which is what makes it that much worse than a pro sports labor dispute... all this comes down to the whims of one very wealthy, successful man. It's romantic to do what CM Punk did; to take a stand. But very few other roster members were as well-off as him. There's a bigger gap than you think. In conclusion, sure, these guys are doing better than your average Burger King worker. But that's like saying your average burger jockey should be grateful because they're doing better than a homeless wino. It's not fair to just blame the employees for not having "a pair." I love Vince, but he's stuck in the past. Used to be that this kinda shit would fly, in the 70s or even 80s. But today's workforce are smarter, and they know their rights. Legit competition would help, but this isn't a case where the "market will right itself."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 3:47:16 GMT -5
WWE desperately needs to see business just completely fall apart. Like, almost to the point of reaching 1995 levels of desperation - how convinced they are that they can just do whatever the hell they want and they'll still be raking in money in a decade has been slowly killing them for years and something needs to happen to force them to put in some actual effort again.
Also, I find it incredible that there are people actually arguing that WWE's tendency to push somebody for months then just up and decide one day, "Oh, wait, we don't like you anymore, go lose to El Torito," then freaking publicly announcing that bullshit and trying to put the blame firmly on the people it's happening to is okay. It's like there are some people who cannot bring themselves to blame Vince McMahon for a single thing when in all honesty, he is by most signs a terrible human being who has fluked his way into every success he's ever had.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 25, 2014 3:49:50 GMT -5
The big test for WWE will come if something happens to Cena. One career ending injury and they will really struggle, because they've been so dependent on him. They've failed to build stars because as soon as someone gets some momentum, they become Cena's buddy or enemy and are immediately derailed.
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Chiral
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Post by Chiral on Dec 25, 2014 4:04:08 GMT -5
...is there something you're not telling us Observer?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 4:05:20 GMT -5
...is there something you're not telling us Observer? If you look closely Cesaro is actually a turnip.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 4:10:57 GMT -5
Morale should be at the same level it was before the Austin/McMahon interview, because Vince said nothing that wouldn't have been known before There's a bit of a difference in my opinion. It's one thing to know your boss thinks a certain way about you, it's another for him to flat out announce it publicly while talking shit and blaming the problem on you.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 25, 2014 4:13:16 GMT -5
Like I said, he would have known beforehand that Vince didn't think much of him. The shitty booking would have proven that. My guess is that he's content to simply stay in WWE until they release him, confident that he can make money in Japan or on the indie scene after getting some WWE exposure for a few years. So? I don't get how you can say they shouldn't have lower morale because "oh they already knew, why be bothered?" It's still a public statement made in front of hundreds of thousands of people, as opposed to murmurs backstage. It's like you're belittling them for having feelings or something. I think they point is that this is more things that they've already heard from Vince directly. He's not exactly the type to not say what he feels, and not get in someone's face about it. So now he said it to Austin. It's not going to "hurt Cesaro's feelings" any more, because Vince has more than likely already said all these things directly to his face.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 4:15:05 GMT -5
So? I don't get how you can say they shouldn't have lower morale because "oh they already knew, why be bothered?" It's still a public statement made in front of hundreds of thousands of people, as opposed to murmurs backstage. It's like you're belittling them for having feelings or something. I think they point is that this is more things that they've already heard from Vince directly. He's not exactly the type to not say what he feels, and not get in someone's face about it. So now he said it to Austin. It's not going to "hurt Cesaro's feelings" any more, because Vince has more than likely already said all these things directly to his face. There's still a gap there and making it public just makes the issue worse. It's like how a full-on fight over money at home is never going to be quite as awkward as if it happens in the middle of Foodland or something.
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Post by Welfare Willis on Dec 25, 2014 4:20:54 GMT -5
And you know it's people like Del Rio, AJ Styles, and Punk who are providing there's a life outside the "major" leagues of wrestling. Punk exposed WWE's hypocrisy toward the UFC. WWE will publicly state there's no competition between UFC and WWE, but then you have a non-competite clause with the UFC. Of course, those guys are very experienced pros in their profession.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 4:24:14 GMT -5
And you know it's people like Del Rio, AJ Styles, and Punk who are providing there's a life outside the "major" leagues of wrestling. Punk exposed WWE's hypocrisy toward the UFC. WWE will publicly state there's no competition between UFC and WWE, but then you have a non-competite clause with the UFC. Of course, those guys are very experienced pros in their profession. Which is all well and good for people like Orton and Kane who are prominent enough that they could waltz into any wrestling company in the world and have any amount of money they want thrown at them for their time. That might not work out quite as well for, say, a Zack Ryder or a Kofi Kingston. They might be able to make a living, but why risk it when they can just keep spinning their wheels for a paycheck? Plus it's not that easy to just walk away, by the sounds of most people who've been in and out of there the place is run like a cult.
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