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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Jan 3, 2015 18:41:15 GMT -5
We've had plenty of rich heel manager gimmicks in the past who have used their vast wealth to put together impressive stables full of mercenaries ready to win titles and eliminate enemies for their benefactor. But they tend to be histrionic and obnoxious. There is a certain sinister undercurrent with John E. du Pont (or atleast the way he was portrayed in Foxcatcher). He is just as arrogant and elitist as any other rich manager, but there is just something a little bit more malevolent than the rest. Basically someone who sees himself much in the same light as Stu Hart. But since he doesn't have a Stu Hart's resume both in the ring and as a trainer, he much like John du Pont did in the amateur ranks tries to buy his way in (at least Dibiase was an accomplished pro wrestler and Vince McMahon spent basically his entire adult life in the wrestling business). He can even have these little PR packages made in lieu of typical vignettes. Like this one that resembles something you'd see put out by the marketing department of a major corporation or some municipality's chamber of commerce.
While I was watching Foxcatcher it kind of came to me that John du Pont was kind of the Herb Abrams of amateur wrestling. In the sense that both are men who used money to buy their way into wrestling to get acceptance from the boys.
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Post by Sir Woodrow on Jan 3, 2015 19:33:29 GMT -5
it kind of came to me that John du Pont was kind of the Herb Abrams of amateur wrestling. In the sense that both are men who used money to buy their way into wrestling to get acceptance from the boys. So Dixie then? |
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Jan 3, 2015 19:35:48 GMT -5
it kind of came to me that John du Pont was kind of the Herb Abrams of amateur wrestling. In the sense that both are men who used money to buy their way into wrestling to get acceptance from the boys. So Dixie then? But less obnoxious. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 19:39:44 GMT -5
Vince Russo would make him a shoot wrestler because Vince Russo.
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Post by Citizen Snips on Jan 4, 2015 8:01:13 GMT -5
He was an insane murderer. So no, this would be a horrible, tasteless idea.
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Jan 4, 2015 11:29:32 GMT -5
He was an insane murderer. So no, this would be a horrible, tasteless idea. Well, I wouldn't have him murder anyone like he did to Dave Schultz. I wouldn't make it some Pogo The Clown shit where he runs at someone in the corner with a knife. But I think a rich heel manager who abuses his charges by passive aggressively by letting him know how much he disappointed his manager. Instead of say Ted Dibiase abusing Bam Bam Bigelow by putting everything on front street in calling him a loser for being pinned in the tag team title match at the 1995 Royal Rumble, losing to LT at WrestleMania XI, and losing to Diesel for the WWF Title on an episode of Raw (that ended up being Dibiase's last straw with Bigelow). |
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jan 5, 2015 2:39:49 GMT -5
He was an insane murderer. So no, this would be a horrible, tasteless idea. Well, I wouldn't have him murder anyone like he did to Dave Schultz. I wouldn't make it some Pogo The Clown shit where he runs at someone in the corner with a knife. But I think a rich heel manager who abuses his charges by passive aggressively by letting him know how much he disappointed his manager. Instead of say Ted Dibiase abusing Bam Bam Bigelow by putting everything on front street in calling him a loser for being pinned in the tag team title match at the 1995 Royal Rumble, losing to LT at WrestleMania XI, and losing to Diesel for the WWF Title on an episode of Raw (that ended up being Dibiase's last straw with Bigelow). Right, but creating a character based on an insane murderer still doesn't work. Let's put it this way, if he never murdered somebody in cold blood, then sure, a gimmick mirroring du Pont's life as a coach/mentor would be interesting, I guess. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2015 14:31:30 GMT -5
Only if he feuds with Kurt Angle
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Jan 7, 2015 18:50:43 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't have him murder anyone like he did to Dave Schultz. I wouldn't make it some Pogo The Clown shit where he runs at someone in the corner with a knife. But I think a rich heel manager who abuses his charges by passive aggressively by letting him know how much he disappointed his manager. Instead of say Ted Dibiase abusing Bam Bam Bigelow by putting everything on front street in calling him a loser for being pinned in the tag team title match at the 1995 Royal Rumble, losing to LT at WrestleMania XI, and losing to Diesel for the WWF Title on an episode of Raw (that ended up being Dibiase's last straw with Bigelow). Right, but creating a character based on an insane murderer still doesn't work. Let's put it this way, if he never murdered somebody in cold blood, then sure, a gimmick mirroring du Pont's life as a coach/mentor would be interesting, I guess. Steve Austin based his ruthless, cold hearted demeanor on Richard Kuklinski. Just because you take character traits from an actual person who did horrible things to integrate them into a wrestling character doesn't mean you endorse the horrible real life crimes they committed. |
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jan 7, 2015 19:09:42 GMT -5
Right, but creating a character based on an insane murderer still doesn't work. Let's put it this way, if he never murdered somebody in cold blood, then sure, a gimmick mirroring du Pont's life as a coach/mentor would be interesting, I guess. Steve Austin based his ruthless, cold hearted demeanor on Richard Kuklinski. Just because you take character traits from an actual person who did horrible things to integrate them into a wrestling character doesn't mean you endorse the horrible real life crimes they committed. OK well you asked a question, I gave my opinion. Austin's character wasn't actually a serial killer. He just embodied the stone cold stare. Cool. What you're talking about is taking a wrestling manager and giving them the backstory of a known insane person who murdered a wrestler. And I'm telling you that that would be wildly insensitive. |
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Jan 7, 2015 19:31:12 GMT -5
Steve Austin based his ruthless, cold hearted demeanor on Richard Kuklinski. Just because you take character traits from an actual person who did horrible things to integrate them into a wrestling character doesn't mean you endorse the horrible real life crimes they committed. OK well you asked a question, I gave my opinion. Austin's character wasn't actually a serial killer. He just embodied the stone cold stare. Cool. What you're talking about is taking a wrestling manager and giving them the backstory of a known insane person who murdered a wrestler. And I'm telling you that that would be wildly insensitive. Austin wasn't actually a serial killer, and this completely hypothetical wrestling manager wouldn't actually take out a revolver and shoot anyone. He would just embody du Pont's old money elitism and ambition to experience grappling glory vicariously through his charges/proteges. While at the same time responding to any failure in the ring with a very cold, passive aggressive manner than just calling the guy a loser and kicking him out of the stable. It's not a wholesale appropriation of the guy's life story, but taking things I felt are interesting about the guy (or at least as they were presented in Foxcatcher) and using them a la carte for a manager character. |
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jan 7, 2015 19:35:31 GMT -5
That description is clearly inspired by du Pont and, in light of Schultz's autobiography and Foxcatcher just being released, and --again-- the fact that it all happened in real life in the world of wrestling, it's still way too insensitive.
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Jan 7, 2015 20:11:45 GMT -5
That description is clearly inspired by du Pont and, in light of Schultz's autobiography and Foxcatcher just being released, and --again-- the fact that it all happened in real life in the world of wrestling, it's still way too insensitive. How's it any worse than Law & Order shows having storylines "ripped from the headlines"? Or even having a movie like Foxcatcher? I don't care how masterfully crafted they are, they are all cynical attempts to make money through entertainment. And good for them, Foxcatcher was a really good movie, L&O episodes with "ripped from the headlines" stories can be good (although sometimes they suck, like any episode of any TV show). So I don't understand why it's bad if wrestling does something similar. Yes, wrestling has a shoddy record incorporating real life events (Eddiesploitation, Montreal redux after Montreal redux). But that has nothing to do with incorporating real life elements into wrestling. It's that they were done poorly (again, Eddiesploitation) or excessively that it dissipates any impact (and again, Montreal redux). But fictional elements can be used poorly or excessively that it ruins that trope. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 20:56:05 GMT -5
Bray Wyatt's running around right now with what's basically a Charles Manson gimmick.
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jan 7, 2015 21:46:22 GMT -5
That description is clearly inspired by du Pont and, in light of Schultz's autobiography and Foxcatcher just being released, and --again-- the fact that it all happened in real life in the world of wrestling, it's still way too insensitive. How's it any worse than Law & Order shows having storylines "ripped from the headlines"? Or even having a movie like Foxcatcher? I don't care how masterfully crafted they are, they are all cynical attempts to make money through entertainment. And good for them, Foxcatcher was a really good movie, L&O episodes with "ripped from the headlines" stories can be good (although sometimes they suck, like any episode of any TV show). So I don't understand why it's bad if wrestling does something similar. Yes, wrestling has a shoddy record incorporating real life events (Eddiesploitation, Montreal redux after Montreal redux). But that has nothing to do with incorporating real life elements into wrestling. It's that they were done poorly (again, Eddiesploitation) or excessively that it dissipates any impact (and again, Montreal redux). But fictional elements can be used poorly or excessively that it ruins that trope. Cool, that doesn't make your idea any less insensitive. |
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Jan 7, 2015 22:05:13 GMT -5
How's it any worse than Law & Order shows having storylines "ripped from the headlines"? Or even having a movie like Foxcatcher? I don't care how masterfully crafted they are, they are all cynical attempts to make money through entertainment. And good for them, Foxcatcher was a really good movie, L&O episodes with "ripped from the headlines" stories can be good (although sometimes they suck, like any episode of any TV show). So I don't understand why it's bad if wrestling does something similar. Yes, wrestling has a shoddy record incorporating real life events (Eddiesploitation, Montreal redux after Montreal redux). But that has nothing to do with incorporating real life elements into wrestling. It's that they were done poorly (again, Eddiesploitation) or excessively that it dissipates any impact (and again, Montreal redux). But fictional elements can be used poorly or excessively that it ruins that trope. Cool, that doesn't make your idea any less insensitive. I don't see how it's insensitive though. If you have a wrestler doing a sociopath gimmick, does that make it insensitive to anyone who has been victimized by sociopaths? I don't see how this is any more "insensitive" than my previous example of Steve Austin basing the original "Stone Cold" character on Richard Kuklinski dead eyed emotionless demeanor. If it's okay for one guy to use aspects of a real life villain's personality in a wrestling context, then why is it insensitive for another (in this case, hypothetical) guy to use aspects of a real life villain's personality in a wrestling context? That's all it is, using aspects of someone's personality to incorporate into a fictional character. |
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jan 7, 2015 22:39:35 GMT -5
Cool, that doesn't make your idea any less insensitive. I don't see how it's insensitive though. If you have a wrestler doing a sociopath gimmick, does that make it insensitive to anyone who has been victimized by sociopaths? I don't see how this is any more "insensitive" than my previous example of Steve Austin basing the original "Stone Cold" character on Richard Kuklinski dead eyed emotionless demeanor. If it's okay for one guy to use aspects of a real life villain's personality in a wrestling context, then why is it insensitive for another (in this case, hypothetical) guy to use aspects of a real life villain's personality in a wrestling context? That's all it is, using aspects of someone's personality to incorporate into a fictional character. I've watched every Stone Cold doc, listened to nearly all of his podcasts and watched a ton of his interviews over the years. This is the first and second time I've ever heard the name Richard Kuklinski. |
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