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Post by Unaffiliated on Jan 15, 2015 13:36:10 GMT -5
Ok this is a potentially controversial topic so I apologize in advance for starting it should things get unruly, but it's a subject that I am not fully sure where to stand on and would be interested to hear different opinions.
Now, the phrase "victim blaming" is most often used negatively against some people's attitudes towards sexual assault of women. Basically, it's not okay to say, "If you dress provocatively, you can expect to get sexually assaulted."
However, this doesn't appear to apply to most other crimes, where it is "okay" to "blame the victim". Two examples I thought of are:
"If you insult someone, you can expect to get punched/beaten up"
"If you carry your jewelry/money or drive your expensive car in a dangerous part of town, you can expect to get robbed"
Is there any difference between the three that would make some okay and others not? If there are no differences, are they all acceptable to say or not?
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 15, 2015 13:54:46 GMT -5
One can certainly take certain precautions to reduce the chances of being subjected to a crime. That's common sense.
However some people simply flat out blame victims, and there's no justification for it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 14:01:00 GMT -5
Nope. They're all victim blaming.
While its good to use common sense and caution people to do so, its even BETTER to remember that no matter how many precautions you take, you could still be a victim of someone else's malice.
The "If you insult someone, you can expect to get punched/beaten up" is especiall bizarre and immature.
"He called me a name!!! Now I'm gonna physically assault him!!" WTF?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 14:44:18 GMT -5
Nope. They're all victim blaming. While its good to use common sense and caution people to do so, its even BETTER to remember that no matter how many precautions you take, you could still be a victim of someone else's malice. The "If you insult someone, you can expect to get punched/beaten up" is especiall bizarre and immature. "He called me a name!!! Now I'm gonna physically assault him!!" WTF? I disagree on the insulting part. Blithely minding my own business and being assaulted is a far cry from insulting someone and getting hit for it. I insulted them specifically to draw a negative reaction. That's the only reason anybody would do it. From a legal standpoint I'm in the right, since I got hit. But on a personal or social one, it's much grayer depending on the details. So no, it's not all victim blaming.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 15:03:28 GMT -5
Nope. They're all victim blaming. While its good to use common sense and caution people to do so, its even BETTER to remember that no matter how many precautions you take, you could still be a victim of someone else's malice. The "If you insult someone, you can expect to get punched/beaten up" is especiall bizarre and immature. "He called me a name!!! Now I'm gonna physically assault him!!" WTF? I disagree on the insulting part. Blithely minding my own business and being assaulted is a far cry from insulting someone and getting hit for it. I insulted them specifically to draw a negative reaction. That's the only reason anybody would do it. From a legal standpoint I'm in the right, since I got hit. But on a personal or social one, it's much grayer depending on the details. So no, it's not all victim blaming. For sure, I know exactly what you mean, but also, we're in a civilized society (heh, ideally) and in a civilized society it on us as humans to act civil, even if someone else is acting like a dolt. Likewise,we all have to behave as if we can verbally express our opionion without fear of physical repercussion. So, yeah - for sure, don't insult people, its a jerk move that usually means the person doing the insulting is also immature and has low self-worth. But also, physical violence and verbally assaulting someone are pretty far apart. I dont think its really all that gray who the victim is though. The person who got assaulted for talking negatively towards someone else didn't "deserve" to have his kicked in. That's what the whole idea of "victim-blaming" is all about. Physical violence should be used if you feel your LIFE's in danger, not your pride.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 15, 2015 15:13:26 GMT -5
Actually, I've found the opposite, especially with interrogation processes. If people leave their stuff in a car, and it gets stolen, generally the cops won't blame you for it or people won't ask questions, where as with sexual harassment/assault/rape victims will usually be hammered on what they were wearing, what they were drinking, leading someone on, you were looking for attention, and wouldn't you know who won the pony, lots of rapes don't get reported.
That being said, victim blaming, all victim blaming, gives me the sour belches.
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Post by Lazy peon on Jan 15, 2015 15:23:15 GMT -5
I heard a few people online say it was the French cartoonist's own fault they were murdered.
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Jan 15, 2015 15:25:44 GMT -5
I think sometimes a victim is not always blameless. Also, sometimes I think it is very important to examine the behavior and actions of the victim before an alleged crime. Sometimes the word 'innocent victim' is thrown around too much, when the victim was not always acting in the best way prior to an incident. I should stress I am speaking in VERY general terms about crimes in general. I recognize that the term 'victim blaming' is almost exclusively used these days to refer to women who have been raped. I am NOT using the term 'victim blaming' this narrowly. I cringe when I hear victims of rape blamed for the crime against them because of what they wore, etc.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 15, 2015 15:40:36 GMT -5
I heard a few people online say it was the French cartoonist's own fault they were murdered. I've read a lot of, oh it's terrible this happened and they shouldn't have been murdered but people's feelings were hurt and they're racist. And the people who would say this would be on my side with other victim blaming.
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Post by chazraps on Jan 15, 2015 15:43:59 GMT -5
Ok this is a potentially controversial topic so I apologize in advance for starting it should things get unruly, but it's a subject that I am not fully sure where to stand on and would be interested to hear different opinions. Now, the phrase "victim blaming" is most often used negatively against some people's attitudes towards sexual assault of women. Basically, it's not okay to say, "If you dress provocatively, you can expect to get sexually assaulted." However, this doesn't appear to apply to most other crimes, where it is "okay" to "blame the victim". Two examples I thought of are: "If you insult someone, you can expect to get punched/beaten up" "If you carry your jewelry/money or drive your expensive car in a dangerous part of town, you can expect to get robbed" Is there any difference between the three that would make some okay and others not? If there are no differences, are they all acceptable to say or not? The sexual assault and robbery ones are not OK at all. Nobody should expect to be sexually assaulted or robbed regardless of the situations and then excuses the aggressors by suggesting their crimes are somehow "just a part of life." The insult one needs more context. If an insult comic in a comedy club or a bad guy wrestler insults people, it's entertainment and he shouldn't expect to be hit. But if some guy is immediately in the wrong for berating someone in public and verbally abusing them when it's totally uncalled for, it gets tricky. EDIT: I should specify the Insult one isn't meany by someone just going "f*** you" or "you suck" on the street, but rather when someone starts following someone around and berating them verbally to the point where it becomes a threatening form of abuse. I live in New York.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Jan 15, 2015 15:44:54 GMT -5
I heard a few people online say it was the French cartoonist's own fault they were murdered. Anyone who says this is an idiot and probably a racist.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 15, 2015 15:47:43 GMT -5
The hypocritical thing about asking a rape victim "what were you wearing?" is that it's only ever applied to women.
If a man was raped, would anyone ask him "were you wearing a sexy tie and a suit?" if rapists found such attire attractive?
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Post by Dub H on Jan 15, 2015 15:59:30 GMT -5
The hypocritical thing about asking a rape victim "what were you wearing?" is that it's only ever applied to women. If a man was raped, would anyone ask him "were you wearing a sexy tie and a suit?" if rapists found such attire attractive? Aha.Trick Question,man can't be raped. (This is a satire answer by the view of society that a man being raped is not possible,and is not taken seriously). I think it is more about the victim wearing an provocative outfit,than just plain attractive(Dumb,i know).I think if the man was wearing something really skimpy there would be a few people saying that. In the end,it will always be a stupid thing to say,no matter the context of the crime.
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Post by The Unconquered Sun on Jan 15, 2015 16:16:35 GMT -5
Lets see, I'll say 3 to 4 pages till this one gets locked up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 16:37:52 GMT -5
I disagree on the insulting part. Blithely minding my own business and being assaulted is a far cry from insulting someone and getting hit for it. I insulted them specifically to draw a negative reaction. That's the only reason anybody would do it. From a legal standpoint I'm in the right, since I got hit. But on a personal or social one, it's much grayer depending on the details. So no, it's not all victim blaming. For sure, I know exactly what you mean, but also, we're in a civilized society (heh, ideally) and in a civilized society it on us as humans to act civil, even if someone else is acting like a dolt. Likewise,we all have to behave as if we can verbally express our opionion without fear of physical repercussion. So, yeah - for sure, don't insult people, its a jerk move that usually means the person doing the insulting is also immature and has low self-worth. But also, physical violence and verbally assaulting someone are pretty far apart. I dont think its really all that gray who the victim is though. The person who got assaulted for talking negatively towards someone else didn't "deserve" to have his kicked in. That's what the whole idea of "victim-blaming" is all about. Physical violence should be used if you feel your LIFE's in danger, not your pride. No, that's not what I mean when I say the situation is grayer. Who the victim and perp are is clear cut. Victim blaming in regards to crimes like rape usually revolve around excusing the crime because the victim did "provocative" things that logically affect no one. For instance, what's it to you if a woman dresses a certain way or screws a lot of guys? But insults, like I said, are specifically intended to provoke a negative response. If an adult called his/her longsuffering, workaholic mother a bitch and she responded by flipping out and giving them a black eye, she's in the wrong...legally. But would anyone blame her for punching out her unappreciative son/daughter? Not likely. Why? Because in a rare case of the legal system and public opinion seeing eye to eye, we have mitigating circumstances. That's what makes it grayer, at least in the public's eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 16:48:56 GMT -5
For sure, I know exactly what you mean, but also, we're in a civilized society (heh, ideally) and in a civilized society it on us as humans to act civil, even if someone else is acting like a dolt. Likewise,we all have to behave as if we can verbally express our opionion without fear of physical repercussion. So, yeah - for sure, don't insult people, its a jerk move that usually means the person doing the insulting is also immature and has low self-worth. But also, physical violence and verbally assaulting someone are pretty far apart. I dont think its really all that gray who the victim is though. The person who got assaulted for talking negatively towards someone else didn't "deserve" to have his kicked in. That's what the whole idea of "victim-blaming" is all about. Physical violence should be used if you feel your LIFE's in danger, not your pride. No, that's not what I mean when I say the situation is grayer. Who the victim and perp are is clear cut. Victim blaming in regards to crimes like rape usually revolve around excusing the crime because the victim did "provocative" things that logically affect no one. For instance, what's it to you if a woman dresses a certain way or screws a lot of guys? But insults, like I said, are specifically intended to provoke a negative response. If an adult called his/her longsuffering, workaholic mother a bitch and she responded by flipping out and giving them a black eye, she's in the wrong...legally. But would anyone blame her for punching out her unappreciative son/daughter? Not likely. Why? Because in a rare case of the legal system and public opinion seeing eye to eye, we have mitigating circumstances. That's what makes it grayer, at least in the public's eyes. Well, personally I'd say she were still in the wrong and would blame her for it. Insulting someone may be intended to provoke a reaction, but that reaction isn't to be hit so how would hitting them be seen as an ok thing to do? Because she didn't like what her child said to her? That's hardly an acceptable reason to strike someone to me. The situation you described still sounds pretty cut and dry to me.
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Jan 15, 2015 16:53:51 GMT -5
I heard a few people online say it was the French cartoonist's own fault they were murdered. That shit pisses me off. To me, it demonstrates a distinct lack of faith on the part of the killers. Let's say you worship Zeus. If you thought that Liam Neeson's portrayal of him was a grave insult to Zeus, then perhaps you should let Zeus have the honor of striking him down since it was his honor that was supposedly insulted. I mean, Neeson is the bees' knees and all, but if Zeus wants to strike him down he will be struck down. You, an insignificant human, cannot possibly strike down someone quite like Zeus could. If Zeus does not do so, then logic should dictate that it is because Zeus doesn't want him struck down. For you to decide to act in Zeus' stead means that you are just a murderous asshole that might wind up facing a pissed off Zeus when you die because he thought Neeson was awesome playing him. In that case, is Zeus going to let you off of the hook and blame Neeson? No, he will rightfully blame your ass and so should everyone else.
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Post by The Unconquered Sun on Jan 15, 2015 17:10:33 GMT -5
I heard a few people online say it was the French cartoonist's own fault they were murdered. That shit pisses me off. To me, it demonstrates a distinct lack of faith on the part of the killers. Let's say you worship Zeus. If you thought that Liam Neeson's portrayal of him was a grave insult to Zeus, then perhaps you should let Zeus have the honor of striking him down since it was his honor that was supposedly insulted. I mean, Neeson is the bees' knees and all, but if Zeus wants to strike him down he will be struck down. You, an insignificant human, cannot possibly strike down someone quite like Zeus could. If Zeus does not do so, then logic should dictate that it is because Zeus doesn't want him struck down. For you to decide to act in Zeus' stead means that you are just a murderous asshole that might wind up facing a pissed off Zeus when you die because he thought Neeson was awesome playing him. In that case, is Zeus going to let you off of the hook and blame Neeson? No, he will rightfully blame your ass and so should everyone else. Never try to use logic, reason and common sense on a zealot. You'll only waste your time and anger somebody that has no problem with killing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 17:25:38 GMT -5
No, that's not what I mean when I say the situation is grayer. Who the victim and perp are is clear cut. Victim blaming in regards to crimes like rape usually revolve around excusing the crime because the victim did "provocative" things that logically affect no one. For instance, what's it to you if a woman dresses a certain way or screws a lot of guys? But insults, like I said, are specifically intended to provoke a negative response. If an adult called his/her longsuffering, workaholic mother a bitch and she responded by flipping out and giving them a black eye, she's in the wrong...legally. But would anyone blame her for punching out her unappreciative son/daughter? Not likely. Why? Because in a rare case of the legal system and public opinion seeing eye to eye, we have mitigating circumstances. That's what makes it grayer, at least in the public's eyes. Well, personally I'd say she were still in the wrong and would blame her for it. Insulting someone may be intended to provoke a reaction, but that reaction isn't to be hit so how would hitting them be seen as an ok thing to do? Because she didn't like what her child said to her? That's hardly an acceptable reason to strike someone to me. The situation you described still sounds pretty cut and dry to me. The part I bolded, it's funny you say that. I think we can all agree that insults, by their nature, are supposed to facilitate physical or verbal confrontation. Obviously no one wakes up one day and says "Hey, I want someone to punch me!" unless they have a fetish, but if you use a tool crafted for a certain purpose and the purpose is fulfilled...well... You don't think an otherwise reasonable parent who pops her flippant adult child is less culpable than other cases, huh? I guess we can't see eye to eye at all, then.
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Post by Square on Jan 15, 2015 17:29:54 GMT -5
I heard a few people online say it was the French cartoonist's own fault they were murdered. Yeah, people are f***ing idiots.
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