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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 22:00:55 GMT -5
I feel like his matches get better with time. In a business where most things don't hold up over the years, I think that's saying something.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 22:13:57 GMT -5
I feel like his matches get better with time. In a business where most things don't hold up over years, I think that's saying something. I do also, in the sense that his matches followed a logical path of story telling with a rising action building to a climax. So many of the WWE title matches that are called great today (like the one at last month's Rumble) are such ridiculous finisher spamfests that aim for crowd pops and "Look at his face! He can't believe it!" moments instead of following any sort of dramatic structure with a proper rising action and climax. Again, I'm not even a huge fan of Bret (and it's too bad I have to keep qualifying this), but the man took his art very seriously and I can't knock that. What's sorely missing in wrestling today is just the thing that guys like Bret brought to the table, and that's the ability to act and tell a story in the ring. The fault is not on the shoulders of today's talent, because they are just going with what Creative tells them.
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Capt Lunatic
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Post by Capt Lunatic on Feb 17, 2015 23:37:07 GMT -5
One of the biggest knocks against him that I've seen recently is that during his first run as champion he had matches with Skinner and The Berserker and all sorts of JTTS. First of all, that was Vince's fault for not having any other stars ready to go once Hulkamania ended. Second, it's not a real sport so who cares if Mantaur gets a title shot. Bret made all his opponents look good.
I LOVED his whole fighting champion gimmick. For a kid who grew up watching Hulk Hogan wrestle once every two months, it was great.
also... {Spoiler}{Spoiler}
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Emmet Russell
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Post by Emmet Russell on Feb 17, 2015 23:50:32 GMT -5
I hated him because he wore Pink and feuded with Steve Austin and Shawn Michaels - my two favourites.
I appreciate him so much more now than I can look back at his work and see just how talented he was. He was truly brilliant in the ring and very underrated on the microphone. He was one of the few who came off as real when speaking and it was a fresh take for a product that was built around comic book characters.
My one problem with Hart is how full of himself he is. Sure, he was damn good, but reading his book he makes himself seem like the second coming of Christ.
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Post by abjordans on Feb 18, 2015 0:01:22 GMT -5
I will probably get a lot of flack for this.. But, if you are a wrestling fan and don't like Bret Hart, you are weird to me.
He is awesome. His work, duh. He looked different than everyone. He had awesome gear. He had signature colors, which is missing from wrestling today, more guys should pick a color scheme. His jackets ruled. The glasses were so bad ass. He had one of the best and most recognizable themes ever. He also proved to be very memorable as time has gone along. I rarely have to explain who he is when bringing him up to non fans. Any guy aged 25-40 knows him. He, I brought him up in a meeting today, actually, and it made two guys comment.
Plus, Bret was the first guy I watched start at one part of the card and go up as a fan. So, he was just always one of my guys.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Feb 18, 2015 11:38:52 GMT -5
I have to question the judgment of anyone who can't appreciate how good Bret was. I'm not a huge Bret Hart fan. I don't think he's in the top 5 of all time. I don't think all of his matches are masterpieces. Yet, I can't be so blind as to not see how good he was. Bret's offense was absolutely 100% on point. Everything he did looked real and looked like it hurt, but yet he was one of the safest guys to work with. Bret was also one of the best at selling. I'm not talking about dramatic overselling like HBK or Mr. Perfect - while entertaining, it doesn't compare to what Bret could do, because Bret made everything look real. I've often said that if I wanted to try to convince someone that pro wrestling matches were real fights, I would show them a Bret Hart match. People make fun of him because he took wrestling too seriously, but the fact that he took wrestling so seriously translated into his work, which was excellent. I'm ok with people not liking him, thinking he's boring... whatever, because he's not out there posing or doing flips or spamming his finisher. That's fine, but I cannot understand any fan over the age of 15 who can't at least appreciate his body of work. The thing is, as true as all this is, the main issue with Bret I think is that he wasn't really a guy who made great matches happen - he was a guy who had great matches with great talents. He wasn't much of a carrier in most cases. Bret for me is like Rey Mysterio, in that he'll rise to an occasion but won't create one. And any one of us can appreciate the talent required to have a really tight punch or kick or sell, but that's the building blocks of a great match, not the high spots.
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Post by Robbymac on Feb 18, 2015 11:51:52 GMT -5
What was the match when Vince stepped of the announcing table to congratulate Bret? Survivor Series 96 after he beat Austin. Funny how things would change a year later... Don't think he actually got in the ring there. Just stood up and shook his hand. It was Wrestlemania X that Vince got up and actually got in the ring to celebrate with the baby faces after Bret won his second title.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Feb 18, 2015 12:33:04 GMT -5
Survivor Series 96 after he beat Austin. Funny how things would change a year later... Don't think he actually got in the ring there. Just stood up and shook his hand. It was Wrestlemania X that Vince got up and actually got in the ring to celebrate with the baby faces after Bret won his second title. Gotcha, I just assumed he was referring to SS 96.
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Post by revolverjgw on Feb 18, 2015 14:26:59 GMT -5
I love the realism he brought to it. Absolutely perfect selling, and a moveset that looked logical. He almost never went for moves that looked like it hurt him as much as his opponent. Little reliance on silly highspots, overselling, stupid decisions, and overly elaborate moves, everything was cool and calculated. One example of his awesome attention to detail and function was that flying elbow he did, I always loved it and the logic behind it summed up what I loved about his style. It looked designed to minimize any potential damage to him while looking like it was probably more effective and efficient than the Savage/Michaels style, despite not being as flashy or drawn out. The way he executed it so quickly and drove it in there with impact, stabilizing his elbow with his other hand. It looked like something somebody might actually do if wrestling were real.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Feb 18, 2015 14:46:07 GMT -5
Considering what perfectionists both were, it's a major shame there was never a Bret/Macho feud.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Feb 18, 2015 14:47:23 GMT -5
Bret's one of my favorites, I always admired his commitment to his character and his ability. But in retrospect, I can see why some people couldn't get into him, he's not exactly a complete package.
Someone mentioned Sheamus not being as "believable" as Bret, and I strongly disagree. Sheamus being over-the-top isn't just a style that suits him, its an asset that most wrestlers ideally should have in some form. Bret can't exactly play the same type of character as a Sheamus or a Rock or a Hogan, but it would not have hurt his appeal if he had the ability to put that wild energy in his promos the way some other stars did.
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J is Justice
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Post by J is Justice on Feb 18, 2015 18:15:32 GMT -5
I'm struggling to type this with all the tears in my eyes, but he was as good as he keeps telling us.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Feb 18, 2015 18:43:52 GMT -5
Bret Hart really is the best ever.
Bret Hart could get a great match out of literally everyone and he dragged everybody up to his level and when he was in the ring with a talent of his level it would be a MOTYC.
Shawn and Savage are Mr Wrestlemania, but Bret Hart is without doubt Mr Summerslam.
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WWHHHD
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Post by WWHHHD on Feb 18, 2015 19:13:26 GMT -5
Playing devils advocate here. Let me bring a solid point/fact.
When signed and the top guy in WWE. They almost went out of business. As soon as he leaves the WWE goes to new heights. WCW starts going down the tubes and is eventually sold off.
So this love for him must come from people who didn't have tv, ppv, or ability to buy a ticket to a show, because he is a black hole when it comes to drawing and keeping companies a float.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Feb 18, 2015 19:18:19 GMT -5
Playing devils advocate here. Let me bring a solid point/fact. When signed and the top guy in WWE. They almost went out of business. As soon as he leaves the WWE goes to new heights. WCW starts going down the tubes and is eventually sold off. So this love for him must come from people who didn't have tv, ppv, or ability to buy a ticket to a show, because he is a black hole when it comes to drawing and keeping companies a float. Correlation is not causation, try again. The WWE's business was going down before Bret and got considerably worse under Shawn and Diesel. Ric Flair failed to impress as the top draw, a returning Hulk Hogan and Warrior failed to turn things around, they tried repeatedly to replace him with Shawn, Diesel and Lex Luger but they always returned to Bret as he was their most reliable draw, the most reliable main event talent they had in general and was the guy who was the face the expansion into Canada and Europe. Business went downhill because of a whole variety of reasons, the steroid trial, the huge churn rate for talent in the two years Bret rose to the top and the fact that most of the characters that replaced them were sub par and the booking absolutely reeked. WCW had a whole bunch of problems which Bret was a victim, not the cause of.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 19:23:08 GMT -5
He certainly thought so.
I mean, I loved the guy. Aside from his matches, just the thing with the jacket being shrugged off and the glasses given to the kids? Come on, what kid WOULDN'T love him.
But no one's a bigger Bret Hart mark than Bret Hart.
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WWHHHD
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Post by WWHHHD on Feb 18, 2015 20:05:11 GMT -5
Playing devils advocate here. Let me bring a solid point/fact. When signed and the top guy in WWE. They almost went out of business. As soon as he leaves the WWE goes to new heights. WCW starts going down the tubes and is eventually sold off. So this love for him must come from people who didn't have tv, ppv, or ability to buy a ticket to a show, because he is a black hole when it comes to drawing and keeping companies a float. Correlation is not causation, try again. The WWE's business was going down before Bret and got considerably worse under Shawn and Diesel. Ric Flair failed to impress as the top draw, a returning Hulk Hogan and Warrior failed to turn things around, they tried repeatedly to replace him with Shawn, Diesel and Lex Luger but they always returned to Bret as he was their most reliable draw, the most reliable main event talent they had in general and was the guy who was the face the expansion into Canada and Europe. Business went downhill because of a whole variety of reasons, the steroid trial, the huge churn rate for talent in the two years Bret rose to the top and the fact that most of the characters that replaced them were sub par and the booking absolutely reeked. WCW had a whole bunch of problems which Bret was a victim, not the cause of. Things were going great for WCW until Bret showed up. FACT. Things were going alright in 90-92 WWE. FACT Bret got to WCW and things went downhill. FACT Bret lead the WWF from 93-97 when things were at its lowest. FACT Blame whoever you want but to not point a finger at Bret Hart is just wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 20:34:13 GMT -5
I feel like his matches get better with time. In a business where most things don't hold up over the years, I think that's saying something. Totally. I think it's because wrestling is getting further and further from what Bret Hart brought to the table. Sure, there's a lot of super-workers in WWE right now, but the style is different. Wrestlers are less patient, fans are less patient. For example, Bret was GREAT at starting a match. Lock-up, go the corner, clean break, facial expressions, crowd work, lock up again, run the ropes, arm drag (which, in this scenario, actually gets a pop)! Sell, crowd work. Bing bang boom armdrag again, but countered, then some mat work, etc. Build the match from there, slowly but surely. So much of Bret's work was basic wrestling exchanges that, for some reason, have fallen completely to the wayside. And to me, that really sucks. It's like they got rid of all the foundation building so we can get to the spots. Bret didn't need to do flip dives to the floor and have a bunch of crazy impressive looking moves to pop the crowd. He did basic moves extremely well, and built the match so the fans were cheering because it was him doing the moves, not because the moves looked cool.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Feb 18, 2015 20:42:44 GMT -5
Correlation is not causation, try again. The WWE's business was going down before Bret and got considerably worse under Shawn and Diesel. Ric Flair failed to impress as the top draw, a returning Hulk Hogan and Warrior failed to turn things around, they tried repeatedly to replace him with Shawn, Diesel and Lex Luger but they always returned to Bret as he was their most reliable draw, the most reliable main event talent they had in general and was the guy who was the face the expansion into Canada and Europe. Business went downhill because of a whole variety of reasons, the steroid trial, the huge churn rate for talent in the two years Bret rose to the top and the fact that most of the characters that replaced them were sub par and the booking absolutely reeked. WCW had a whole bunch of problems which Bret was a victim, not the cause of. Things were going great for WCW until Bret showed up. FACT. Things were going alright in 90-92 WWE. FACT Bret got to WCW and things went downhill. FACT Bret lead the WWF from 93-97 when things were at its lowest. FACT Blame whoever you want but to not point a finger at Bret Hart is just wrong. If you wanna ignore literally every other factor that hurt business in those companies, sure. It's a rotten argument, dude. The steroid trial and the poor creative direction were the biggest reason for WWF's downturn in business. That, combing with Ted Turner really pumping some money into WCW and getting big stars like Hogan and Savage, was what really hurt WWF. WCW was nearing the end of their peak by the time Bret got there. WWF was ready to make their comeback and WCW was about to pay the price for living in the moment instead of preparing for the future. Bret had no real control over WCW business failing.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Feb 18, 2015 20:44:01 GMT -5
Things were going great for WCW until Bret showed up. FACT. Things were going alright in 90-92 WWE. FACT Bret got to WCW and things went downhill. FACT Bret lead the WWF from 93-97 when things were at its lowest. FACT Blame whoever you want but to not point a finger at Bret Hart is just wrong. That's right! It's 100% Bret's fault that the shine was taken off wrestling by the drug and steroid scandals erupting before he got near the top and their crooked doctor of choice naming names, destroying Hulk Hogan's clean and wholesome superman image, heck, Bret likely injected Hulk Hogan himself to frame the Hulkster. It's Bret's fault that Vince pissed away a tonne of money on the WBF and could no longer afford to keep on veteran talents and totally Bret's fault that Warrior underperformed, Ric Flair underperformed and the company was on the downward slide. It's 100% Bret's fault that the WWF's Memphis style booking drove the audience away and that people got tired of WWF programming being largely jobber squash matches featuring 'name' talents like the Smoking Gunns and Damien Demento. Buyrates were declining before Bret got near the top of the card so yeah, that's all on Bret, not sure how, but it must be true because it looks that way if you ignore EVERYTHING going on while he was at the company. It's totally 100% Bret's fault that WCW completely ****ed up Sting's big moment at Starrcade 1997 and had no plans other than more NWO. Bret's fault that Hogan was impossible to book because of creative control leading to disasters like the fingerpoke of doom and Bret's fault that Bischoff was giving Hogan the power of veto over other people's booking. Bret was entirely to blame for the fact that they didn't use him for anything major and kept flipping him from face to heel until he lost all of the momentum he came into the company with. It's Bret's fault that Bischoff spent money like there's no tomorrow, making WCW incredibly topheavy and then tried to right the ship by destroying the undercard and giving away WWF results. Bret was clearly a huge fan of Kevin Nash as he got on so famously with the Kliq and must have worked to get him the head booker's role, and he was a massive fan of the edgy for the sake of edgy and often nonsensical WWF booking spearheaded by Vince Russo so I'm sure he personally brought him into WCW where he went on to obliterate the leftover goodwill from the 1996-97 period and turn the cruiserweight division into a joke. I also heard Bret was the guy who put Jamie Kellner in charge of TNT, they were going to go with a wrestling fan but Bret talked them out of it just because he could. Damn that Bret, damn him to heck.
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