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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Feb 26, 2015 15:00:26 GMT -5
There's definitely an element of we as fans being smartened up too much as well. At Fast Lane the crowd was chanting for Randy Orton before he ever came out and hadn't been seen for a while, Meltzer and the other writers spoil every plan months in advance allowing people to make a decision before it ever gets to TV, the big news is never what happens on the shows it's always about the backstage goings ons. At this point it's almost like magicians performing for an audience of other magicians that already know all of the tricks and can't be wowed. Not sure what that has to do with the matter at hand but here we are. I don't think it would matter even if dirtsheets ceased to exist tomorrow. Once you've become "smart" to wrestling, it can be a very predictable thing. Randy Orton was clearly written out and not legitimately injured, so it was only a matter of time before he came back. And considering he was "injured" by Rollins, it was obvious he'd come back to feud with him. And with WrestleMania a few weeks away, it had to be soon since you know Orton's not going to miss that. The dirtsheets weren't needed to know any of that. Ditto for Reigns' push. Anyone who knows how wrestling works could see what WWE was going for possibly as far back as January 2014.
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gr1990
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Post by gr1990 on Feb 26, 2015 15:20:02 GMT -5
I said it at the time of the Rumble, Vince still books for an audience that thinks it's real and expects it to work. He still thinks that if he throws enough milestones at his chosen guy then the audience will get behind them most cos they win all the time and therefore must be the best. If Reigns succeeds where Bryan failed then he must be better, that was the story of the Rumble and was meant to be the story of the whole arc with Bryan in Cena's place at Summerslam if not for Bryan's injury. Everyone knows the game now, they know when they're being manipulated and they hate it.
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Post by gnr123 on Feb 26, 2015 16:50:40 GMT -5
It's sad really. Bryan comes back from injury, still over and still as good as ever, and yet WWE say "nah, f*** that, Reigns is out guy." This goes all the way back to late 2013, when Bryan was pushed aside for Big Show, Cena, than f***in' Batista of all people. It's obvious WWE (for some strange reason) don't see "main eventer" in Daniel Bryan. Like, what's missing? He has a great, relatable look, he's great in the ring and on the mic, and he has incredible connection with the audience. What's the problem here?
You see, if Bryan didn't come back, it would have been different. Would Reigns have gotten booed? Maybe, but there's more of a change he would have gotten a mixed reaction instead of outright booed out of the building. And there would have been no use for the embarrassing damage control with The Rock. But, Bryan did come back. And after all the stuff that happened in the ring and out of it, you would think WWE would booked him to with the Rumble to set up quite possibly the most easiest booked storyline in the last decade. Bryans back from injury and wants his belt back, but Brock Lesnar, the Beast Incarnate and man who ended the Streak, is currently holding it at ransom. You bring in Bryan's recent injury, you bring in the size difference. It all works perfectly, build up Lesnar as the callous monster for picking on a guy like Bryan, and it builds sympathy and support for Bryan.
Seriously, I have never say the WWE outright say "nope, we doing what we want, screw you," to paying customers. TWICE. That's the problem, you would think after last year, they could have relied how loved Bryan is, that they would have him return and win the Rumble. Nope, they still go against what a lot of people want, and go with the 6'5 250 pounder who fans resent.
And than there's Roman Reigns, who hasn't shown much improvement at all. Now, he's not getting widely cheered or loudly booed, he's just there. Fans have given up, they accepted this fate and just don't care. And that's the problem, fans should care. And care a great deal. Having fans be indifferent to the man who going to beat the 1 in 21-1 isn't good in the long run, especially if he gets booed at WM. You sacrificed the Undefeated Streak, to put over a guy who's about 5 or six in terms of crowd reactions and charisma. That's terrible business and quite frankly something I though would never happen, especially in this day and age.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Feb 26, 2015 16:52:44 GMT -5
It's sad really. Bryan comes back from injury, still over and still as good as ever, and yet WWE say "nah, f*** that, Reigns is out guy." This goes all the way back to late 2013, when Bryan was pushed aside for Big Show, Cena, than f***in' Batista of all people. It's obvious WWE (for some strange reason) don't see "main eventer" in Daniel Bryan. Like, what's missing? He has a great, relatable look, he's great in the ring and on the mic, and he has incredible connection with the audience. What's the problem here? You see, if Bryan didn't come back, it would have been different. Would Reigns have gotten booed? Maybe, but there's more of a change he would have gotten a mixed reaction instead of outright booed out of the building. And there would have been no use for the embarrassing damage control with The Rock. But, Bryan did come back. And after all the stuff that happened in the ring and out of it, you would think WWE would booked him to with the Rumble to set up quite possibly the most easiest booked storyline in the last decade. Bryans back from injury and wants his belt back, but Brock Lesnar, the Beast Incarnate and man who ended the Streak, is currently holding it at ransom. You bring in Bryan's recent injury, you bring in the size difference. It all works perfectly, build up Lesnar as the callous monster for picking on a guy like Bryan, and it builds sympathy and support for Bryan. Seriously, I have never say the WWE outright say "nope, we doing what we want, screw you," to paying customers. TWICE. That's the problem, you would think after last year, they could have relied how loved Bryan is, that they would have him return and win the Rumble. Nope, they still go against what a lot of people want, and go with the 6'5 250 pounder who fans resent. And than there's Roman Reigns, who hasn't shown much improvement at all. Now, he's not getting widely cheered or loudly booed, he's just there. Fans have given up, they accepted this fate and just don't care. And that's the problem, fans should care. And care a great deal. Having fans be indifferent to the man who going to beat the 1 in 21-1 isn't good in the long run, especially if he gets booed at WM. You sacrificed the Undefeated Streak, to put over a guy who's about 5 or six in terms of crowd reactions and charisma. That's terrible business and quite frankly something I though would never happen, especially in this day and age. How was Bryan pushed aside for Big Show? Were they supposed to do Randy Orton vs Daniel Bryan on FIVE straight pay-per-views?
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Post by gnr123 on Feb 26, 2015 16:58:23 GMT -5
How was Bryan pushed aside for Big Show? Were they supposed to do Randy Orton vs Daniel Bryan on FIVE straight pay-per-views? No, adding Big Show made sense. I see you point. Even having Cena and Orton unify the belts made sense. Only if the endgame was Bryan getting to win back the title he was screwed out of time and time again. But, than Batista won the Rumble. So, it's obvious it was WWE's way of pushing him out of the main event, and that was the problem.
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Post by avenger on Feb 26, 2015 17:12:55 GMT -5
Depressing read, but a necessary one. Dave's making the point a ton of others have made, and is drawing more on history to make it even clearer: it's nearly impossible to think of a wrestler who has gotten the type of crowd responses and mainstream attention Bryan has gotten not at least experimented with at the top of the mountain. Yes, he got injured, we know, but remember that crowd reaction when he announced he wasn't retiring and would be in the Rumble? That's the crowd's choice, right there; run with him. Maybe they'd get the belt on him, let him topple Brock, but wind up not having things work out; ok, at least you tried. You did the logical thing, respond to your fans, and it just didn't work out. But your odds of it working out are MUCH higher when, as Dave says, you're starting from a position of "this babyface has momentum", which is something Reigns does not seem to have right now. It's weird because Bryan's return mirrored Shawn Michaels return in 1995 - it made logical storyline booking for Bryan to win the Rumble and then go on to headline Wrestlemania, just like last year - the perfect end to the Bryan/Authority storyline was him winning the title, but it wasn't in their plans until they realised Batista was going to be booed at 'Mania. Instead, they're going with Reigns, who is cold as a babyface. Meltzer likened it to Luger, but there are probably two better historial situations we can compare it to: 1) Batista. Just like Batista, Reigns was part of a dominant stable, where he had a long run with the Tag Titles, then later won the Royal Rumble. When Batista won the Rumble there was already storyline tension between him and the champion, leading him to face and beat his mentor (Triple H) at Wrestlemania. But that's where the comparison stops, because he's had no interaction with Lesnar, even now, and won't until three weeks until Mania. Reigns hasn't even had a singles run of note, because of his injury more than anything else. If Bryan was being booked like this, people would think he was in the main event, not to become a long term champion, but to be fed to Lesnar to make him look stronger, so that when Rollins cashed in later in the night, Rollins looks stronger. 2) The Rock. Just like the Rock, Reigns debuted towards the top of the card, still green as anything. But its almost like they learned the lessons of The Rock. Where The Rock was presented as a can't miss blue-chipper babyface, Reigns was presented as the polar opposite. A cool heel, who the fans slowly started getting behind. When the Shield split, Reigns kept the gimmick, because the gimmick was cool, and the gimmick was over. But then Reigns got injured and lost momentum, and he's not got it back yet, certainly not from the crowd. He's got the kids behind him, but the kids always want a "superman" type top face. By all accounts, Bryan is one of the most selfless guy on the roster. Sure here cares about his match quality, but he cares more about just being out there wrestling, regardless of his place on the card. He never wanted to be "the guy". As for the Reigns thing, honestly I'll be shocked if his reign isn't pure trash. I'm not a hater, I'm not a "I'M NOT WATCHING FOREVER!" guy, but putting him in there with Kane and Big Show ft. Seth Rollins as his opponents..well I'll sell you my house if you can tell me why that's gonna be entertaining the slightest. That does make me wonder what the plan past Wrestlemania could be for Roman if he indeed survives the week as champion. You have Rollins with the briefcase, but who else is on the heel side besides the Local Men, who we know make for bad matches with Roman already? If the dirt sheets are correct today, and say that Lesnar's last appearance is the day after Wrestlemania, it gives them an option to have Lesnar retain, and the option for Rollins to cash in the day after without Reigns winning the belt, if they're getting the jitters. Regardless, they've clearly kept away from the Rollins/Reigns singles program so far, to run that after Wrestlemania, and that'll take 2-3 months. Somewhat lost in this is that Bryan's body fell apart during his big run last year. Rightly or wrongly I can see the office being more reluctant to pull the trigger with him again(at least until he proves that he can stay healthy). D-Bry is over but he also has A LOT of miles on his body. This isn't saying that they shouldn't give him a chance but I'm sure that it factors into the big picture of it all where the office is concerned and it's not just "f*** that guy, Roman is big and has muscles." When they likely made the decision that Roman was going to be the guy was in the end days of the Shield when he was really over and having arenas chant his name from time to time, the push could have(and could still) work(ed) but the booking has to be really good and it hasn't been to this point. Just something to consider. Somewhat lost in this is that Roman Reign's body fell apart during his big run last year.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Feb 26, 2015 17:35:14 GMT -5
Somewhat lost in this is that Roman Reign's body fell apart during his big run last year. Reigns had a hernia and worked through it as long as he could and was back in 3 months. There were legitimate concerns that Bryan may never wrestle again as recent as 3 months ago. They're two completely different situations
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JTH
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Post by JTH on Feb 26, 2015 17:40:19 GMT -5
Somewhat lost in this is that Roman Reign's body fell apart during his big run last year. Reigns had a hernia and worked through it as long as he could and was back in 3 months. There were legitimate concerns that Bryan may never wrestle again as recent as 3 months ago. They're two completely different situations That and the fact that fans had already started turning on Roman BEFORE he got hurt. That's also why this is a disaster, because had he never got hurt, this would have become more prominent long before Royal Rumble, and WWE may have very possibly pulled the trigger on something else. Cause imagine how Reigns might be received right now had the continued booking of him had continued for those 3 months, fans would have completely turned on him before Survivor Series.
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Post by Bo Rida on Feb 26, 2015 17:41:24 GMT -5
There's definitely an element of we as fans being smartened up too much as well. At Fast Lane the crowd was chanting for Randy Orton before he ever came out and hadn't been seen for a while, Meltzer and the other writers spoil every plan months in advance allowing people to make a decision before it ever gets to TV, the big news is never what happens on the shows it's always about the backstage goings ons. At this point it's almost like magicians performing for an audience of other magicians that already know all of the tricks and can't be wowed. Not sure what that has to do with the matter at hand but here we are. I don't think it would matter even if dirtsheets ceased to exist tomorrow. Once you've become "smart" to wrestling, it can be a very predictable thing. Randy Orton was clearly written out and not legitimately injured, so it was only a matter of time before he came back. And considering he was "injured" by Rollins, it was obvious he'd come back to feud with him. And with WrestleMania a few weeks away, it had to be soon since you know Orton's not going to miss that. The dirtsheets weren't needed to know any of that. Ditto for Reigns' push. Anyone who knows how wrestling works could see what WWE was going for possibly as far back as January 2014. All true but a fan who thinks they know what is coming must be the easiest to work, just look at the end of the streak.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Feb 26, 2015 17:42:23 GMT -5
There's definitely an element of we as fans being smartened up too much as well. At Fast Lane the crowd was chanting for Randy Orton before he ever came out and hadn't been seen for a while, Meltzer and the other writers spoil every plan months in advance allowing people to make a decision before it ever gets to TV, the big news is never what happens on the shows it's always about the backstage goings ons. At this point it's almost like magicians performing for an audience of other magicians that already know all of the tricks and can't be wowed. Not sure what that has to do with the matter at hand but here we are. All this tells me though is that WWE need to hire smarter magicians.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Feb 26, 2015 17:45:10 GMT -5
I don't think it would matter even if dirtsheets ceased to exist tomorrow. Once you've become "smart" to wrestling, it can be a very predictable thing. Randy Orton was clearly written out and not legitimately injured, so it was only a matter of time before he came back. And considering he was "injured" by Rollins, it was obvious he'd come back to feud with him. And with WrestleMania a few weeks away, it had to be soon since you know Orton's not going to miss that. The dirtsheets weren't needed to know any of that. Ditto for Reigns' push. Anyone who knows how wrestling works could see what WWE was going for possibly as far back as January 2014. All true but a fan who thinks they know what is coming must be the easiest to work, just look at the end of the streak. I think every wrestling fan was shocked by that one.
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gr1990
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Post by gr1990 on Feb 26, 2015 18:21:32 GMT -5
I said it at the time of the Rumble, Vince still books for an audience that thinks it's real and expects it to work. He still thinks that if he throws enough milestones at his chosen guy then the audience will get behind them most cos they win all the time and therefore must be the best. If Reigns succeeds where Bryan failed then he must be better, that was the story of the Rumble and was meant to be the story of the whole arc with Bryan in Cena's place at Summerslam if not for Bryan's injury. Everyone knows the game now, they know when they're being manipulated and they hate it. Considering Vince, himself, has spent the better part of the last twenty years telling us it isn't real on their own productions, I don't really buy that. I don't mean he literally thinks his audience are complete marks, just that he still believes kayfabe accomplishments mean something and people aren't going to cotton on to who the 'chosen one' is and resent them if they don't believe they're ready for such a push. He seemed to think that if he had Reigns achieve a lot relative to the other candidates for top guy, people would accept him as the best. He realises people know it's fake, but he still thinks he can outsmart them by making them like what he likes through booking, as Meltzer mentions successful promoters generally doing throughout the years. This time, however, people saw through him cos the fans are smarter than ever, they know what he's trying to do with Reigns and a lot of them don't want any part in it, but he pressed on regardless.
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JoDaNa1281
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Feb 26, 2015 18:31:26 GMT -5
Somewhat lost in this is that Bryan's body fell apart during his big run last year. Rightly or wrongly I can see the office being more reluctant to pull the trigger with him again(at least until he proves that he can stay healthy). D-Bry is over but he also has A LOT of miles on his body. This isn't saying that they shouldn't give him a chance but I'm sure that it factors into the big picture of it all where the office is concerned and it's not just "f*** that guy, Roman is big and has muscles." When they likely made the decision that Roman was going to be the guy was in the end days of the Shield when he was really over and having arenas chant his name from time to time, the push could have(and could still) work(ed) but the booking has to be really good and it hasn't been to this point. Just something to consider. I don't buy that at all because never in their history have they had trouble going right back to putting a guy on top despite injuries and mileage on the body. Austin, Angle, Batista, Hunter, Cena, Taker and Edge have all missed major chunks of time because of serious injury but went right back to the top of the card when they were healthy. Health isn't an issue, it is a copout for WWE.They've wanted Roman since last year, we all know it, and there is nothing wrong with them having that plan and stick to it (we can debate whether it will work or our enjoyment but that is their deal) but to act like there is anything else behind "choosing" Roman over Bryan is just a lie no matter who it is from. Bryan is not, has not and never will be Vince McMahon's choice to lead WWE and that is another fact we've known for over a year. All we're doing now is trying to find a way to cope with the realization that we, like Bryan, are not the people Vince wants watching his variety show. Orton belongs on that list, too.
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saintpat
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Post by saintpat on Feb 26, 2015 18:40:57 GMT -5
Lot of interesting stuff and good points in the article ... but I think it completely washes over the injury part.
Bryan wasn't cleared medically to return until right before the Rumble. He was gone basically from his big moment at WM until then -- he got married and had his honeymoon, then his father died and then he got injured. None of that is his fault (nor WWE's), but it happened.
People still gripe about him being "stuck in a feud with Kane" after WM, but that was to keep him from going straight back to Orton or Batista ... it was in all likelihood going to be over quickly, then beats Orton or Batista and then Brock was going to win at SummerSlam -- or something along those lines.
So he goes away and has surgery and from all reports his recovery didn't come along quickly. He was in limbo and then he makes it back just in time for the RR.
Now if I'm in charge, I'm not 100 percent ready to make his first match back put him in the WM main event: what if his body doesn't hold up, what if his arm starts getting weak again? That absolutely HAS to be a factor in decision-making, and it's not like they had a few months to give him a test drive and kick the tires before pulling the trigger.
Obviously, Vince liked Roman and saw potential in him, but if Bryan doesn't get injured it's very possible that his push waits a year ... or maybe he goes over Brock in 2014 and Bryan wins the Rumble and we get Bryan-Roman in WM31. Or maybe not. We'll never know.
The overall health thing with DB could also be a factor. WWE probably knows a lot more about how much damage he might have done in that decade killilng himself every night in the indies. While Meltzer projects Daniel to be healthy for a 5-year run or whatever, what does he base that on? If he knows so much about DB's health, why didn't he tell us months ahead of time when he was going to be back? Why? Because no one knew -- this isn't like Roman, who had a surgery and he recovered exactly on schedule for his return.
I also think Meltzer was pushing it a bit and playing to the IWC when he glosses over Bryan's mic skills as if he had completely mastered the art with some sort of "He can wrestle, he's good on the mic, people like him, he has charisma -- all he lacks is the look." Bryan is pasable on the mic, but that is one area where he is clearly not main event material -- not that it couldn't be worked around, not that he can't improve, not that he needs to be magic on the mic ... but don't insult us by acting like that's not a shortcoming.
If Meltzer knew everything going on in WWE, he would be telling us all about Brock's walkout and he would have correctly predicted a lot of other things. Yes, he is privvy to some info but he doesn't know everything. And I seriously doubt he knows every facet of the thinking in not going with Bryan in the WM main event this year, so when he says "Vince this" and "Vince that," it may be part of the story but I doubt it's the full story.
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Post by Malibu Stacy on Feb 26, 2015 19:59:07 GMT -5
There's definitely an element of we as fans being smartened up too much as well. At Fast Lane the crowd was chanting for Randy Orton before he ever came out and hadn't been seen for a while, Meltzer and the other writers spoil every plan months in advance allowing people to make a decision before it ever gets to TV, the big news is never what happens on the shows it's always about the backstage goings ons. At this point it's almost like magicians performing for an audience of other magicians that already know all of the tricks and can't be wowed. Not sure what that has to do with the matter at hand but here we are. I think it's a great point to bring up: the whole "good promoters listen to fans, great promoters manipulate them" thing is infinitely harder to do now that the audience is smartened up...and smartened up by the wrestling on TV, no less, given how things like Vince's "you're tired of having your intelligence insulted" promo helped officially slay kayfabe. I just don't think Vince is really cut out for this era, where there's almost no such thing as a fan over the age of 10 who isn't smartened up on some level. Like Meltzer says, you can't just put Roman in the top position and expect fans to take to it, not when fans of the modern era expect higher quality in-ring work and promos and can sense when they're being force-fed something by the office. That does NOT mean you should kowtow to every whim of the audience, not by any stretch, but you can't work around the fans being infinitely more genre savvy than they've ever been before by just trying to nakedly manipulate them ("You love Roman, not Bryan! Look, even Bryan loves Roman! LOVE ROMAN!"). Again, like Meltzer said, if Roman were getting huge reactions everywhere, every week, that'd be one thing, but Roman's reactions haven't matched Bryan's at all, and barely crack the top 3-5 in the company. So not only is Vince trying to manipulate the crowd, he's doing it in a way that he's never done before: pushing the guy who has minimal momentum with the crowd to be his anointed one. Given the smartened-up nature of the modern fanbase, that just makes it even worse. This is pretty much what I came here to say, particularly the first and last paragraph. Even though I think he could use quite a bit of polishing, I have no problem with the Reigns push, I don't even have a problem with the level he's being pushed. The thing I have a problem with is the transparency of the the push. All they had to do was write out a compelling narrative that gave Roman room to show why he deserves to be on top, but instead they just cast aside everyone else, decorated him with kayfabe achievements, and topped off with the forced "Roman Reigns is Daniel Bryan Approved" promo from Monday. Sadly, subtlety is a lost art.
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Post by benstudd on Feb 27, 2015 6:58:41 GMT -5
And to see Bryan giving Reigns a vocal blowjob on RAW saying "he is the guy" was so soul-crushing. Not only Bryan was "screwed over" over Reigns but the guy had to go out there and bow down to him just cause Vince asked him too. Vince is embarrassing.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 27, 2015 8:07:24 GMT -5
And to see Bryan giving Reigns a vocal blowjob on RAW saying "he is the guy" was so soul-crushing. Not only Bryan was "screwed over" over Reigns but the guy had to go out there and bow down to him just cause Vince asked him too. Vince is embarrassing. At the same time, Bryan probably isn't the type who hates Roman behind the scenes or wants to see him fail or driven out of the company or anything like that. I think because a good number of Bryan's fans can't stand Roman, they assume Bryan must hate him too.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Feb 27, 2015 8:12:11 GMT -5
And to see Bryan giving Reigns a vocal blowjob on RAW saying "he is the guy" was so soul-crushing. Not only Bryan was "screwed over" over Reigns but the guy had to go out there and bow down to him just cause Vince asked him too. Vince is embarrassing. At the same time, Bryan probably isn't the type who hates Roman behind the scenes or wants to see him fail or driven out of the company or anything like that. I think because a good number of Bryan's fans can't stand Roman, they assume Bryan must hate him too. I like both Reigns and Bryan. I'm not picking sides because this isn't Twilight.
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Hypnosis
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Post by Hypnosis on Feb 27, 2015 8:29:32 GMT -5
At the same time, Bryan probably isn't the type who hates Roman behind the scenes or wants to see him fail or driven out of the company or anything like that. I think because a good number of Bryan's fans can't stand Roman, they assume Bryan must hate him too. I like both Reigns and Bryan. I'm not picking sides because this isn't Twilight. Until you realize Bryan's married to someone named "Bella".
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Post by ________ has left the building on Feb 27, 2015 8:45:38 GMT -5
I like both Reigns and Bryan. I'm not picking sides because this isn't Twilight. Until you realize Bryan's married to someone named "Bella".
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