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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 0:56:58 GMT -5
Punk, Del Rio, AJ, and now Brock have all made WWE look like clowns for the past year. I can't remember the last time the whole "WWE is the be-all, end-all of pro wrestling" motto was challenged by their own wrestlers. It's cool seeing all the altnernatives coming out of the woodwork, like Lucha Underground and the New Japan AXS show, TNA's still kicking, ROH is getting in more homes, they're all reaping the benefits of WWE's stifling creative atmosphere. And the other companies are benefitting from TNA's incompetence and broke-assedness to the point where they're catching up. There's a lot of talented performers and different ways of doing things that WWE doesn't want any part of, and they're bound to catch on somewhere else. The only issue is there being a big enough fanbase for wrestling to support the talent. |
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Mar 2, 2015 0:57:43 GMT -5
Brock's not becoming a part of pop culture like Hulk Hogan did. He's just not. One of the main reasons is that Hulk was a kid friendly, 'real life' superhero that an entire generation grew up with and latched onto. Dude's part of Americana now. When people think of wrestling, the FIRST name that comes to their mind, regardless of whether they ever even watched one minute of one match, is Hulk Hogan. I LOVE Brock. He's among my top five favorite guys in sports. He's not becoming what Hulk Hogan was. He's an amazing, once in a lifetime athlete, but that's "all" he is. He won't ever have the sort of pop culture saturation that Hogan did. Part of that too is the way media is consumed now is so much more segmented than it was in Hogan's heyday. No one's touching that. It's just not gonna happen. While I agree it's highly unlikely that Brock's becoming the ubiquitous figure Hogan was, I think you really need to mention the way media is consumed first. It's much more than just part of that, it's the major reason. Hogan was all over every media in the 80s. There wasn't as much media in the 80s. It's doubtful Lesnar, or anyone, could be all over as much media for universal superstardom as anybody in the 80s or before could have. There was no internet, your fame and your audience's entertainment had to come from your work within some level of radio, film, television, theater or literature. As a result, while people certainly had different tastes and opinions and didn't necessarily consume they same media, they all picked from the same limited pot. Before the internet allowed yourself to not just curate but really micromanage your media intake, these things were all a bigger deal. That's why the big names of the 80s in music, be it Michael Jackson, Madonna, Prince etc., still have that level of fame that no musical act who has emerged in the last 15 years or so can really touch. It's because music was such a bigger deal then, and much smaller distribution and with no internet, limited fans of recorded music to what their radio and record store offered. Hulk Hogan was essentially a double-shot television and theater star (I've never ascribed to the notion that wrestling is mainly a "television show," when the necessary live elements of the performance make it theater first, and while the TV shows are important and vital to any major promotion, the programming itself is a televised presentation of live theater) who had a weekly visible slot, could appear on "The Tonight Show" and host "Saturday Night Live" while still tour the country and allow you to see him up-close, giving him a greater intimacy than many movie stars at the time. That's why it's impossible to compare ratings of 80s wrestling to/with the Attitude Era to/with today. Television, as a whole, just isn't as big of a deal as it once was. I love TV and there's arguably better shows with greater production values now than ever, today there's too many channels and too many ways to watch it to make being a TV star today and being a TV star in the 80s comparable in terms of name-recognition. Brock Lesnar may be the most recognizable name in MMA. He was one of the biggest attractions at a time when MMA was at its absolute hottest. He's one of the last great pay-per-view draws without a shadow of a doubt. But while MMA is more available than ever, it (like all media) is also competing with more than ever. That's where these differences in era are near-impossible to reconcile. |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 2, 2015 0:58:58 GMT -5
Brock's not becoming a part of pop culture like Hulk Hogan did. He's just not. One of the main reasons is that Hulk was a kid friendly, 'real life' superhero that an entire generation grew up with and latched onto. Dude's part of Americana now. When people think of wrestling, the FIRST name that comes to their mind, regardless of whether they ever even watched one minute of one match, is Hulk Hogan. I LOVE Brock. He's among my top five favorite guys in sports. He's not becoming what Hulk Hogan was. He's an amazing, once in a lifetime athlete, but that's "all" he is. He won't ever have the sort of pop culture saturation that Hogan did. Part of that too is the way media is consumed now is so much more segmented than it was in Hogan's heyday. No one's touching that. It's just not gonna happen. While I agree it's highly unlikely that Brock's becoming the ubiquitous figure Hogan was, I think you're missing the biggest reason why: Hogan was all over every media in the 80s. There wasn't as much media in the 80s. It's doubtful Lesnar, or anyone, could be all over as much media for universal superstardom as anybody in the 80s or before could have. There was no internet, your fame and your audience's entertainment had to come from your work within some level of radio, film, television, theater or literature. As a result, while people certainly had different tastes and opinions and didn't necessarily consume they same media, they all picked from the same limited pot. Before the internet allowed yourself to not just curate but really micromanage your media intake, these things were all a bigger deal. That's why the big names of the 80s in music, be it Michael Jackson, Madonna, Prince etc., still have that level of fame that no musical act who has emerged in the last 15 years or so can really touch. It's because music was such a bigger deal then, and much smaller distribution and with no internet, limited fans of recorded music to what their radio and record store offered. Hulk Hogan was essentially a double-shot television and theater star (I've never ascribed to the notion that wrestling is mainly a "television show," when the necessary live elements of the performance make it theater first, and while the TV shows are important and vital to any major promotion, the programming itself is a televised presentation of live theater) who had a weekly visible slot, could appear on "The Tonight Show" and host "Saturday Night Live" while still tour the country and allow you to see him up-close, giving him a greater intimacy than many movie stars at the time. That's why it's impossible to compare ratings of 80s wrestling to/with the Attitude Era to/with today. Television, as a whole, just isn't as big of a deal as it once was. I love TV and there's arguably better shows with greater production values now than ever, today there's too many channels and too many ways to watch it to make being a TV star today and being a TV star in the 80s comparable in terms of name-recognition. Brock Lesnar may be the most recognizable name in MMA. He was one of the biggest attractions at a time when MMA was at its absolute hottest. He's one of the last great pay-per-view draws without a shadow of a doubt. But while MMA is more available than ever, it (like all media) is also competing with more than ever. That's where these differences in era are near-impossible to reconcile. Agreed. |
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Post by Andy Martin on Mar 2, 2015 1:51:58 GMT -5
Is there some sort of clause in the contracts that state they can't attend any other type of sporting event, or something? This is such a non story, it's ridiculous. He went to the UFC show. Big whoop. Hell, Punk went to several UFC shows and was shown on camera while he was still with WWE. |
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Mar 2, 2015 2:17:04 GMT -5
Damn must be nice being Brock Lesnar, everybody wants him for their company so bad and he's even been given the Undertaker's Streakbreaker push as well as the top belt in all of pro-wrestling, plus he can get away with going to UFC and having a ball there since JBL/Heyman practically loudspeaker the fact that he used to hold the UFC Heavyweight Championship everytime he shows up for a live appearance. The guy is arguably bigger than Hogan was during his era. Jokes, right? No jokes here, I'd say it's a very arguable point, nobody else in the history of pro-wrestling has as much legitimacy as Brock Lesnar with his MMA accolades, the dues he's paid from being a WWE guy since Smackdown's early days and wrestling all manner of icons-- including Hogan and The Undertaker (and going over them both). I don't see why it wouldn't be arguable, Brock's doing more for wrestling as WWE WHC than anybody else who's held the title since it's inception easily, and I would say him holding it feels just as important as when Hogan was the WWF champ. |
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 2, 2015 2:19:27 GMT -5
Is there some sort of clause in the contracts that state they can't attend any other type of sporting event, or something? This is such a non story, it's ridiculous. He went to the UFC show. Big whoop. Hell, Punk went to several UFC shows and was shown on camera while he was still with WWE. Undertaker's done it, too. |
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Post by Andy Martin on Mar 2, 2015 2:41:09 GMT -5
Hell, Punk went to several UFC shows and was shown on camera while he was still with WWE. Undertaker's done it, too. Yup. I recall Joe Rogan even freaking out and yelling 'THE UNDERTAKEEEEEERR'S HEEERREE!' I know the timing of it all has people talking but you're probably reading far too much into it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 8:33:10 GMT -5
Just don't go to any TNA events.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Mar 2, 2015 13:28:36 GMT -5
No jokes here, I'd say it's a very arguable point, nobody else in the history of pro-wrestling has as much legitimacy as Brock Lesnar with his MMA accolades, the dues he's paid from being a WWE guy since Smackdown's early days and wrestling all manner of icons-- including Hogan and The Undertaker (and going over them both). I don't see why it wouldn't be arguable, Brock's doing more for wrestling as WWE WHC than anybody else who's held the title since it's inception easily, and I would say him holding it feels just as important as when Hogan was the WWF champ. Absolutely not on all accounts. What is "legitimacy?" And why should that matter when we all know the medium of professional wrestling isn't a sporting contest but live theater? And how is he doing more for the belt than Sammartino who help anchor the WWWF as a sustinable niche, Hogan who made it the worldwide leader, or Austin and The Rock who brought it to pop culture prominence once again? |
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Mar 6, 2015 0:53:23 GMT -5
Legitimacy to me is what Daniel Bryan likes to talk about a lot (and CM Punk before him) how he's a "wrestler" not a sport-entertainer. In Brock's own words, "This is real." He legit made several people tap out or otherwise bested them in a real-life physical competition and became the UFC champ for his efforts. "Legitimacy."
Nobody else on the roster comes close to that.
He's doing more for the belt in exactly the way that I mentioned before. It feels more important when it's around Brock's waist, moreso than when Randy Orton became the first WWE WHC, moreso than when Cena held it (by a longshot), and even more so than when Daniel Bryan held it briefly (his feud with Kane sorta devalued his Championship reign in my eyes, though). He is a larger than life champion, something we haven't seen since the days of Hogan, and I'll point out that I never said he was more important than Hogan or Sammartino, just that he's the first champ in a long time to come close to being compared to the greats of the past.
In my opinion for all that it's worth, he's the Golden Boy of sports-entertainment and mixed martial arts, simultaneously.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 5:31:59 GMT -5
Legitimacy to me is what Daniel Bryan likes to talk about a lot (and CM Punk before him) how he's a "wrestler" not a sport-entertainer. In Brock's own words, "This is real." He legit made several people tap out or otherwise bested them in a real-life physical competition and became the UFC champ for his efforts. "Legitimacy." Nobody else on the roster comes close to that. He's doing more for the belt in exactly the way that I mentioned before. It feels more important when it's around Brock's waist, moreso than when Randy Orton became the first WWE WHC, moreso than when Cena held it (by a longshot), and even more so than when Daniel Bryan held it briefly (his feud with Kane sorta devalued his Championship reign in my eyes, though). He is a larger than life champion, something we haven't seen since the days of Hogan, and I'll point out that I never said he was more important than Hogan or Sammartino, just that he's the first champ in a long time to come close to being compared to the greats of the past. In my opinion for all that it's worth, he's the Golden Boy of sports-entertainment and mixed martial arts, simultaneously. His month long run and singular title defence is devauled because it was Kane? |
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Mar 6, 2015 13:52:39 GMT -5
It was Kane and Kane storyline 'injured' Bryan, kinda a step backwards from defeating Evolution in back-to-back matches on the grandest stage of them all to cap off a year-long battle with The Authority.
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