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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 24, 2015 18:42:46 GMT -5
Had this thought going into what appears to be a lukewarm (at best) WrestleMania week: you notice how few of the matches on this show have any stories behind them, or at least stories that have been developed well?
I bring this up because it calls to mind something I remember from my days as a diehard ROH fan circa 2004-2008: back then, I remember a lot of non-indy fans ragging on indy wrestling by saying "those guys don't know how to tell a story, they just do spotfests and stiff-shot each other. You have to watch WWE to see a story being told".
I didn't buy it back then (seriously, the Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk series didn't "tell a story"? Please), and I really don't buy it now. Looking at this current card, it appears that Sting vs. HHH has a story ("vigilante Sting sees injustice in the Authority, seeks to eliminate them the way he tried to eliminate the nWo"), so does Cena vs. Rusev (vintage "USA face vs. anti-USA heel"), but so much of the rest just seems to be built around "moments" and spots, which is basically what the ladder and battle royale matches are designed to be. This was what I always saw indy supercards being accused of.
It goes beyond that, though; even in a WWE match with a decent story build up, so much of the drama simple revolves around "Guy A hits finisher, guy B kicks out. Now, visa versa. And repeat." They have so many amazing talents on the roster, it'd just be fun to let them get more creative with their matches, incorporate small details into what they do (facial expressions, small reactions, techniques that make sense in the context and flow of a match, etc.), but too often it feels like they're scared to move beyond "get the crowd to pop for the finishers; the more you kick out, the more dramatic it'll get."
I guess I'm kind of rambling, but again, it just strikes me because I remember my ROH fandom days so vividly, and the constant barrage of "No psychology-spot monkeys everywhere!" from people who'd insist you had to watch WWE to get a story told. To make this more of a discussion, is there anything you'd change about WWE match structure or main event psychology to change the company's storytelling methods?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Mar 24, 2015 18:45:27 GMT -5
Do away with the "WWE Style" completely. It's no good and only harms workers' potential to the point where "WWE Guys" are seen as "lesser" than indy wrestlers.
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FAR5222
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Post by FAR5222 on Mar 24, 2015 18:51:23 GMT -5
It's as if WWE became what indy nay-sayers kept saying.
They need to book just about every match like Reigns/Bryan from Fast Lane. That was a really great back and forth match with both playing the heel part at some point controlling the match.
I think they need to mature the writing a lot. Disney/DC/Marvel all have kid friendly elements with a mature quality in writing that adults and kids can enjoy.
Continuity is a must. But all this can only happen if WWE ran as a collective unit rather than a Yes and No from Vince McMahon.
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Post by Woo on Mar 24, 2015 20:30:57 GMT -5
I think the Undertaker/Michaels Mania matches were so well recieved that they've been trying to copy that formula for years, but ignored the storytelling aspect of it and just saw them as finisher fests. That's why the HHH/Undertaker and other big matches since have fallen into the bad Indy habbit of everyone kicking out of everyone elses finisher until they manage to do the move three times to win.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 24, 2015 20:33:14 GMT -5
Do away with the "WWE Style" completely. It's no good and only harms workers' potential to the point where "WWE Guys" are seen as "lesser" than indy wrestlers. This will only happen if somehow House Shows become the main business anymore, not TV advertising contracts. |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Mar 24, 2015 20:41:07 GMT -5
Do away with the "WWE Style" completely. It's no good and only harms workers' potential to the point where "WWE Guys" are seen as "lesser" than indy wrestlers. This will only happen if somehow House Shows become the main business anymore, not TV advertising contracts. All these guys need to learn is how to Work a match. It's the production crew's responsibility to make it look good for TV. |
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Post by Jiren on Mar 24, 2015 20:56:55 GMT -5
97 is my favorite year because the stories were mature (and great) and all areas were well used (Tag, IC, World) and we had multiple people playing "The guy" not just who Vince had a boner for that month. Here's the Go home raw for Mania 13's ending www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxCDDlSw9-AThat makes people want to see the show.....as "meh" as it was |
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 25, 2015 6:02:53 GMT -5
This idea also hit me when I realized something about the ladder match they're doing: how, typically, the idea of a match that can't end in a pin/countout/submission/DQ and involves a heavy potential weapon being necessary for victory is reserved for feuds that require such a level of violence to put an end to it.
Here, it's six guys in a ladder match because "let's steal the show." That just seems very flat in terms of storytelling.
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 25, 2015 6:15:52 GMT -5
With all due respect, I think you're sort of conflating psychology with angles. They play into one another heavily, but they're not the same thing. That said, I concede I may just be misunderstanding where you're coming from.
I think WWE does have a problem with storytelling on both ends, though. For instance, when you gets guys sometimes wrestling exactly the same for a blood feud as they do for an athletic contest. Dolph can be kind of bad about that, showing any mean streak in the ring. I guess that's why they gave him the whole "Showoff" shtick.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 25, 2015 6:17:22 GMT -5
97 is my favorite year because the stories were mature (and great) and all areas were well used (Tag, IC, World) and we had multiple people playing "The guy" not just who Vince had a boner for that month. Here's the Go home raw for Mania 13's ending www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxCDDlSw9-AThat makes people want to see the show.....as "meh" as it was The four guys in the two main matches on the card throwing down? Didn't look all that "meh" to me. (Although Michaels coming in at the end like that was odd. He comes down, gets a chair and... USA couldn't hold off La Femme Nikita any longer apparently) |
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Post by Jiren on Mar 25, 2015 7:13:09 GMT -5
97 is my favorite year because the stories were mature (and great) and all areas were well used (Tag, IC, World) and we had multiple people playing "The guy" not just who Vince had a boner for that month. Here's the Go home raw for Mania 13's ending www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxCDDlSw9-AThat makes people want to see the show.....as "meh" as it was The four guys in the two main matches on the card throwing down? Didn't look all that "meh" to me. (Although Michaels coming in at the end like that was odd. He comes down, gets a chair and... USA couldn't hold off La Femme Nikita any longer apparently) Wrestlemania that year was "meh", the build was awesome |
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 25, 2015 7:19:02 GMT -5
My mistake.
I'm expecting this year to almost be the reverse... meh build, but mostly great show.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 25, 2015 7:24:19 GMT -5
With all due respect, I think you're sort of conflating psychology with angles. They play into one another heavily, but they're not the same thing. That said, I concede I may just be misunderstanding where you're coming from. I think WWE does have a problem with storytelling on both ends, though. For instance, when you gets guys sometimes wrestling exactly the same for a blood feud as they do for an athletic contest. Dolph can be kind of bad about that, showing any mean streak in the ring. I guess that's why they gave him the whole "Showoff" shtick. I don't think WWE in its current incarnation can even do a "blood feud" anymore, when they have to book their WM main event around a guy cutting promos that basically amount to "Hey! He might shoot! He might go into business for himself and snap his opponent in half for real! Don't you want to see that?" |
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Post by RIHT on Mar 25, 2015 13:06:50 GMT -5
The stories are atrocious these days, and WWE needs to find a balance between smart writing, benefiting as much talent as possible, and still being for people of all ages. John Cena himself said he wouldn't watch today's WWE, and the bullshit reason of saying a show is for kids does not excuse anything for being poorly written. Vince is crazy and should not be running the company at this level anymore; he controls the corporate side, he controls the talent side, and he controls the creative side. It's a dictatorship that time and time again has led to anarchy. He only wised up in the Attitude Era because Ted Turner nearly ran him out of business and when he realized he was scot-free afterwards, we were back to this. WWE needs someone to run corporate, someone to run talent, and someone to run creative, and they shouldn't be the same person.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 27, 2015 16:31:50 GMT -5
Looking at the card again, the IC strap match really drives this feeling home for me. "Here are a bunch of guys we know you fans like. They're going to do some fun spots, isn't it great? And the buildup is that they keep stealing the title, but nobody actually wins it. Even the champion doesn't win it."
Like...what IS that?
If they were having a series of singles matches against one another, with different outcomes having different effects on the participants (e.g. have Bryan and Ziggler start getting angry at one another AFTER a hard fought match, not in some throwaway "turd" angle), with a build that made it clear things had to be settled via a gimmick like a ladder match, that'd be at least an attempt, right?
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