Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Apr 2, 2015 16:43:30 GMT -5
There is no such thing as being a heel anymore. If Fandango snapped one day and did.....i dunno, broke Darren Young's leg out of anger in a match on Main Event, the the audience wouldn't boo, they would just hum his theme or something. The only way to actually get boos from a modern wrestling crowd is if the crowd just thinks you f***ing suck as a wrestler. That's incredibly untrue. Seth Rollins gets all kinds of heat for acting like a chickenshit heel against guys like Lesnar and Orton. Miz gets crazy heat for his treatment of Mizdow. You know why? Because people actually CARE about the Superstars on the other side of the situation. That's exactly what I was talking about when I started the thread. You know why no one would care if Fandango broke Darren Young's leg? Because WWE doesn't allow Darren Young to develop a character people want to see. They just tell these guys "You're a face" or "You're a heel", and then they're pretty generic. What does Darren Young do as a babyface that Jack Swagger doesn't? That's the issue at hand. I know some people agree, some don't, and some just misunderstood my point. I didn't say I wanted to do away with guys being good or bad, but rather that I wanted that to stop dictating who fought with who and who was allowed to be entertaining. Rather than going to the generic face/heel dynamic, I want multi-layered characters. I'm tired of seeing guys tag together because "Hey, we're both good/bad guys!". They tell us that Dolph Ziggler and Daniel Bryan are friends, but outside of being babyfaces they have nothing in common. A guy like Ziggler should rub people the wrong way, and it makes total sense he'd not get along with a character like Daniel Bryan. That doesn't mean you turn Ziggler "heel" and force a bunch of crap to try and make people stop liking him. Just let him have his fans and feud with guys whose personalities clash with his. Another good example is Seth Rollins. He's phenomenal in his current role, and should change nothing. Still, why does he only wrestle babyfaces? Heels should hate him too, he's a prick. I'm just tired of WWE trying to force this old notion of "good guys vs. bad guys" when in real sports and real life in general, there are arrogant showboats who rub people the wrong way who aren't necessarily bad people. That's what I want out of wrestling.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Apr 2, 2015 16:45:52 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I've been to shows in the 80s and the 90s. I've watched enough shows to know that before the Attitude era and ECW. The crowd didn't respond if they didn't care. You had faces that were cheered and heels that were booed. If you had guys coming out that no one cared, the audience barely made a noise. Just because people have been yelling sexist chants since 1997, that doesn't excuse it nor does it make it right. No one has argued it is. As for the pre Attitude Era, heels and faces were more clearly defined back then. WWE has forgotten how to do that. It's because people nowadays will cheer heel tactics no matter how dastardly if they think that heel is cool. Only a few in WWE got consistent heel heat for being heels like Rollins, Hunter, and Steph. Just leftovers from the Attitude Era where every heel was trying to be cool instead of a rat bastard and the crowd forgetting to boo the baddies because they are so cool.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 16:51:01 GMT -5
Wasn't this once proposed by Vince Russo? You never go full Russo.
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Jeff Mangum PI
Hank Scorpio
11 herbs and spices for the rest of eternity; Is Number Two. Number Two!
The 2nd Coming
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Post by Jeff Mangum PI on Apr 2, 2015 16:53:21 GMT -5
No one has argued it is. As for the pre Attitude Era, heels and faces were more clearly defined back then. WWE has forgotten how to do that. It's because people nowadays will cheer heel tactics no matter how dastardly if they think that heel is cool. Only a few in WWE got consistent heel heat for being heels like Rollins, Hunter, and Steph. Just leftovers from the Attitude Era where every heel was trying to be cool instead of a rat bastard and the crowd forgetting to boo the baddies because they are so cool. And there's the heart of the problem.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 2, 2015 17:23:12 GMT -5
No one has argued it is. As for the pre Attitude Era, heels and faces were more clearly defined back then. WWE has forgotten how to do that. It's because people nowadays will cheer heel tactics no matter how dastardly if they think that heel is cool. Only a few in WWE got consistent heel heat for being heels like Rollins, Hunter, and Steph. Just leftovers from the Attitude Era where every heel was trying to be cool instead of a rat bastard and the crowd forgetting to boo the baddies because they are so cool. Nah, it's because heel tactics tend to not be much worse than the faces, who are almost entirely douches. You can't have heroes and villains when the supposed heroes are assholes.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Apr 2, 2015 17:31:24 GMT -5
It's because people nowadays will cheer heel tactics no matter how dastardly if they think that heel is cool. Only a few in WWE got consistent heel heat for being heels like Rollins, Hunter, and Steph. Just leftovers from the Attitude Era where every heel was trying to be cool instead of a rat bastard and the crowd forgetting to boo the baddies because they are so cool. Nah, it's because heel tactics tend to not be much worse than the faces, who are almost entirely douches. You can't have heroes and villains when the supposed heroes are assholes. When a face retaliates for a heinous action that a heel did to him, he's a dick. It happens every time on this board. People also tend to justify said evil and make the heel the face in the narrative. Hard to be a heel when you're getting face cheers. Rusev kicked Cena in the nuts and used that to cheat to win. Cena beats the crap out of him for that weeks later and he's the heel to people.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 2, 2015 17:37:34 GMT -5
Nah, it's because heel tactics tend to not be much worse than the faces, who are almost entirely douches. You can't have heroes and villains when the supposed heroes are assholes. When a face retaliates for a heinous action that a heel did to him, he's a dick. It happens every time on this board. People also tend to justify said evil and make the heel the face in the narrative. Hard to be a heel when you're getting face cheers. Rusev kicked Cena in the nuts and used that to cheat to win. Cena beats the crap out of him for that weeks later and he's the heel to people. Cena deserves a kick to the nuts. He's usually an obnoxious frat boy prick. That's the problem.
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RBD
Team Rocket
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Post by RBD on Apr 2, 2015 17:41:03 GMT -5
I do think that the way WWE books needs to be less rigid in defining which character or action is heel or face. As others have said, some of the top heels in years past have been wildly entertaining whilst still being despicable and unlikable in other ways.
WWE's practices hurt the product. Deliberately diminishing entertainment value and instituting (whether deliberate or not) a set of generic character traits and behaviours as standard will not lead the audience to be more responsive.
I'm on the side of encouraging more complex characters and complex storylines, and I think that naturally leads to a looser distinction between what is heel and what is face. What is in-character and appropriate (and will garner a pop) for the character of Stone Cold, for example, is not the same for Daniel Bryan.
I have always believed that developing characters will improve the face/heel dynamic, rather than diminish it. If I know what a wrestler wants to achieve and why, what they are willing to do, who or what they care about, etc. it makes it much easier for me to care about every aspect of the character. How many 'standard' heel turns have we seen where Wrestler A betrays Wrestler B with next to no context. Now imagine Wrestler A is John Cena. That is already a vast improvement because the story has clearly established Cena's character and moral compass. But I digress.
Ultimately, I do not think there is a significant issue with face/heel dynamics, but rather WWE's standard booking practices. I don't think many would disagree that their booking is wholly tone-deaf and self-defeating at times. They have to accept that the methods they once used to create huge babyfaces or heels are unlikely to work these days because the relationship between the product, the audience and the performers has changed. They should be more flexible and willing to incorporate the audience's reaction into their storylines. However, face/heel dynamics have not vanished. There are still things that the audience will vocally boo and vocally cheer. We are not in an era of complete audience apathy. They should be able to work within the parameters that the audience reactions do.
Really, I think the evolution in face/heel dynamics is that the audience has now assumed a much larger role in the decision making process and WWE has largely refused to accept this.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Apr 2, 2015 17:45:51 GMT -5
When a face retaliates for a heinous action that a heel did to him, he's a dick. It happens every time on this board. People also tend to justify said evil and make the heel the face in the narrative. Hard to be a heel when you're getting face cheers. Rusev kicked Cena in the nuts and used that to cheat to win. Cena beats the crap out of him for that weeks later and he's the heel to people. Cena deserves a kick to the nuts. He's usually an obnoxious frat boy prick. That's the problem. That usually half or more of the crowd cheers as a face. Ziggler is a much worst dudebro yet folks cheer for him. If Rusev did the same thing to Dolph, would there be the same justification?
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 2, 2015 17:52:18 GMT -5
Cena deserves a kick to the nuts. He's usually an obnoxious frat boy prick. That's the problem. That usually half or more of the crowd cheers as a face. Ziggler is a much worst dudebro yet folks cheer for him. If Rusev did the same thing to Dolph, would there be the same justification? The half of the crowd cheering for Cena tends to be children. The kind of people who laugh when someone gets gunged at the Kids Choice Awards. They are easier to please. They react to poopy jokes and bad breath references. For many people above that age, he's a tosser. Ziggler gets cheers because while he is also a douche, he's more pitiful and loses so often, one can't but help cheer for a talented guy who is so obviously held back.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Apr 2, 2015 17:56:19 GMT -5
That usually half or more of the crowd cheers as a face. Ziggler is a much worst dudebro yet folks cheer for him. If Rusev did the same thing to Dolph, would there be the same justification? The half of the crowd cheering for Cena tends to be children. The kind of people who laugh when someone gets gunged at the Kids Choice Awards. They are easier to please. They react to poopy jokes and bad breath references. For many people above that age, he's a tosser. Ziggler gets cheers because while he is also a douche, he's more pitiful and loses so often, one can't but help cheer for a talented guy who is so obviously held back. I must be imagining the grown ass adults cheering for Cena and wearing his gear in the crowd. Ziggler is talented but annoying character wise. But hey, if you're being held back WWE management; you earn a free pass.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 2, 2015 17:58:48 GMT -5
The half of the crowd cheering for Cena tends to be children. The kind of people who laugh when someone gets gunged at the Kids Choice Awards. They are easier to please. They react to poopy jokes and bad breath references. For many people above that age, he's a tosser. Ziggler gets cheers because while he is also a douche, he's more pitiful and loses so often, one can't but help cheer for a talented guy who is so obviously held back. I must be imagining the grown ass adults cheering for Cena and wearing his gear in the crowd. Ziggler is talented but annoying character wise. But hey, if you're being held back WWE management; you earn a free pass. I wouldn't be surprised if those adult Cena fans are also frat boy douches, or they are simply parents going along with the wishes of their kids. And Ziggler is far less annoying than Cena because he's less saturated. Because Cena is the top guy we've just seen more of him ad nauseum over the last decade in particular. And yes, you do get more latitude if you are held back. If he was given the same overbearing push Cena has had, he'd be intolerable too.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 2, 2015 18:03:52 GMT -5
Nah, it's because heel tactics tend to not be much worse than the faces, who are almost entirely douches. You can't have heroes and villains when the supposed heroes are assholes. When a face retaliates for a heinous action that a heel did to him, he's a dick. It happens every time on this board. People also tend to justify said evil and make the heel the face in the narrative. Hard to be a heel when you're getting face cheers. Rusev kicked Cena in the nuts and used that to cheat to win. Cena beats the crap out of him for that weeks later and he's the heel to people. You also always hear people say that the "best heels" are the ones "who have a point" and "who are right, telling the uncomfortable truths that people don't want to hear". What we have is an insecure fanbase desperate to prove their intelligence to an old carny who doesn't care about that.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 2, 2015 18:06:50 GMT -5
When a face retaliates for a heinous action that a heel did to him, he's a dick. It happens every time on this board. People also tend to justify said evil and make the heel the face in the narrative. Hard to be a heel when you're getting face cheers. Rusev kicked Cena in the nuts and used that to cheat to win. Cena beats the crap out of him for that weeks later and he's the heel to people. You also always hear people say that the "best heels" are the ones "who have a point" and "who are right, telling the uncomfortable truths that people don't want to hear". What we have is an insecure fanbase desperate to prove their intelligence to an old carny who doesn't care about that. No, what we have is an insecure creative team desperate to prove their sycophancy to an old carny with declining intelligence who doesn't care about the fanbase.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Apr 2, 2015 18:09:01 GMT -5
I must be imagining the grown ass adults cheering for Cena and wearing his gear in the crowd. Ziggler is talented but annoying character wise. But hey, if you're being held back WWE management; you earn a free pass. I wouldn't be surprised if those adult Cena fans are also frat boy douches, or they are simply parents going along with the wishes of their kids. And Ziggler is far less annoying than Cena because he's less saturated. Because Cena is the top guy we've just seen more of him ad nauseum over the last decade in particular. And yes, you do get more latitude if you are held back. If he was given the same overbearing push Cena has had, he'd be intolerable too. How do you even know if Cena fans are frat boy douches? Because they are cheering for him and not someone with "workratez". My dad never liked Hulk Hogan but I did as a kid. So parents aren't going to just go with the flow because of their kids. Anything to ignore the facts I guess.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 2, 2015 18:20:30 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if those adult Cena fans are also frat boy douches, or they are simply parents going along with the wishes of their kids. And Ziggler is far less annoying than Cena because he's less saturated. Because Cena is the top guy we've just seen more of him ad nauseum over the last decade in particular. And yes, you do get more latitude if you are held back. If he was given the same overbearing push Cena has had, he'd be intolerable too. How do you even know if Cena fans are frat boy douches? Because they are cheering for him and not someone with "workratez". My dad never liked Hulk Hogan but I did as a kid. So parents aren't going to just go with the flow because of their kids. Anything to ignore the facts I guess. I didn't say they were all frat boy douches. I said I wouldn't be surprised if they were. Particularly if his humour appeals to them. And the fact your dad didn't like Hogan even if you did, doesn't mean all parents feel the same about their kid's wrestling hero.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Apr 2, 2015 18:25:45 GMT -5
How do you even know if Cena fans are frat boy douches? Because they are cheering for him and not someone with "workratez". My dad never liked Hulk Hogan but I did as a kid. So parents aren't going to just go with the flow because of their kids. Anything to ignore the facts I guess. I didn't say they were all frat boy douches. I said I wouldn't be surprised if they were. Particularly if his humour appeals to them. And the fact your dad didn't like Hogan even if you did, doesn't mean all parents feel the same about their kid's wrestling hero. If I said all Daniel Bryan fans are people who only love workrate or people who like Divas matches are horndogs, that would be a false, generalizing statement. Same for saying Cena fans loving toilet humor. Parents don't always follow something because their kids like it. Is it so hard to believe that they may like Cena on their own without influence from their offsprings?
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 2, 2015 18:27:32 GMT -5
I didn't say they were all frat boy douches. I said I wouldn't be surprised if they were. Particularly if his humour appeals to them. And the fact your dad didn't like Hogan even if you did, doesn't mean all parents feel the same about their kid's wrestling hero. If is said all Daniel Bryan fans are people who only love workrate or people who like Divas matches are horndogs, they would be a false, generalizing statement. Same for saying Cena fans loving toilet humor. Parents don't always follow something because their kids like it. Is it so hard to believe that they make like Cena on their own without influence from their offsprings? If you said ALL of them were, yes it might be, but I have no doubt that some among those fanbases probably do fall into those catagories. And no, it's not hard to believe some parents might like Cena on their own, but again, I wouldn't be surprised if their sense of humour is as boorish as his.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Apr 2, 2015 18:31:55 GMT -5
If is said all Daniel Bryan fans are people who only love workrate or people who like Divas matches are horndogs, they would be a false, generalizing statement. Same for saying Cena fans loving toilet humor. Parents don't always follow something because their kids like it. Is it so hard to believe that they make like Cena on their own without influence from their offsprings? If you said ALL of them were, yes it might be, but I have no doubt that some among those fanbases probably do fall into those catagories. And no, it's not hard to believe some parents might like Cena on their own, but again, I wouldn't be surprised if their sense of humour is as boorish as his. Again, you are assuming that Cena's humor is up their wheelhouse. I like Cena. Not at Clash levels but enough to recognize his unheralded greatness without him having to retire first. I don't like his jokes but will watch the hell out of a Cena match because it delivers more often than not.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 2, 2015 18:34:07 GMT -5
If you said ALL of them were, yes it might be, but I have no doubt that some among those fanbases probably do fall into those catagories. And no, it's not hard to believe some parents might like Cena on their own, but again, I wouldn't be surprised if their sense of humour is as boorish as his. Again, you are assuming that Cena's humor is up their wheelhouse. I like Cena. Not at Clash levels but enough to recognize his unheralded greatness without him having to retire first. I don't like his jokes but will watch the hell out of a Cena match because it delivers more often than not. I'm not assuming anything, but rather positing a possible explanation for their fandom. I like Cena too, and I disagree with those who say he can't wrestle, but I'd like him even more if they toned down those elements of his character which at the least make him a hypocritical face.
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