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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jun 7, 2015 16:56:01 GMT -5
^WWE DOES ruin wrestlers by not utilizing them to the best of their abilities, booking them in ways that kill their overness or goodwill with the fans, and going out of their way to make fans not care about them.
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Post by molson5 on Jun 7, 2015 16:56:40 GMT -5
The alternative fantasy booking ideas for whatever the WWE "ruined" never sound like guaranteed "huge money makers" to me.
And while message board posters generally want everything to be blown up and changed all the time, the WWE has to actually deal with the consequences of those decisions. Unlike fantasy bookers, they don't have to only concern themselves with the last real show and then build from there. Cena turning heel in 2007 or 2008 wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run - he probably would have changed several times back and forth since then. Pushing the NXT season 1 cast to the moon as a modern NWO wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run either - their limitations and inexperience got exposed pretty quickly. And every time you do something huge and crazy for the sake of "change", you lessen the impact of future big storylines and before you know it you're Vince Russo.
And for every guy you feature and push to the moon as dominant you're going to have to distribute losses throughout the roster. Listening to fans complain about pushes always sounds like how Dick Vitale used to talk about the NCAA tournament selection process. He liked everybody, he thought every bubble team should get in, and everyone should have a high seed. If you listened closely, he was basically advocating for 80 teams to get in, and for 10 teams to get #1 seeds. In real life, that's literally not possible, and when you're actually in the position to make these decisions, not everybody can get main event pushes, or pushes at all. We're going to see this very soon with all the influx of NXT talent. There's a ton of guys with the skills to be featured WWE players, but not all of them can be in the top 7 or 8 guys, in the featured 3 or 4 matches at Wrestlemania. People will whine that those left out were "buried", but it's literally impossible to push everyone as a top guy.
If anybody here wants to post their fantasy week-by-week and month-by-month booking after one these "countless" ruined angles by the WWE, I'm sure we could all negatively pick it apart just like anything else that happens on TV.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,664
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Post by Bo Rida on Jun 7, 2015 17:10:44 GMT -5
(Warning: generalised half-baked theory ahead)
During creatively successful periods nobody really knows what they're doing but they put egos aside and muddle along trying their hardest to the make the best product they can until it miraculously comes together.
During less successful periods nobody really knows what they're doing but they pretend that they do while focusing on protecting their position rather taking creative risks.
Just listen to Hayes and Demott trying to sound wise in that ESPN documentary or read interviews where Steph convinces herself that it was her creative genius that led to Daniel Bryan's moment at WM30. Now compare that to people talking retrospectively about The Monday Night Wars, the making of Star Wars or early Pixar movies.
As Heyman said "experience is the greatest inhibitor of creativity and innovation".
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jun 7, 2015 17:12:22 GMT -5
The alternative fantasy booking ideas for whatever the WWE "ruined" never sound like guaranteed "huge money makers" to me. And while message board posters generally want everything to be blown up and changed all the time, the WWE has to actually deal with the consequences of those decisions. Unlike fantasy bookers, they don't have to only concern themselves with the last real show and then build from there. Cena turning heel in 2007 or 2008 wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run - he probably would have changed several times back and forth since then. Pushing the NXT season 1 cast to the moon as a modern NWO wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run either - their limitations and inexperience got exposed pretty quickly. And every time you do something huge and crazy for the sake of "change", you lessen the impact of future big storylines and before you know it you're Vince Russo. And for every guy you feature and push to the moon as dominant you're going to have to distribute losses throughout the roster. Listening to fans complain about pushes always sounds like how Dick Vitale used to talk about the NCAA tournament selection process. He liked everybody, he thought every bubble team should get in, and everyone should have a high seed. If you listened closely, he was basically advocating for 80 teams to get in, and for 10 teams to get #1 seeds. In real life, that's literally not possible, and when you're actually in the position to make these decisions, not everybody can get main event pushes, or pushes at all. We're going to see this very soon with all the influx of NXT talent. There's a ton of guys with the skills to be featured WWE players, but not all of them can be in the top 7 or 8 guys, in the featured 3 or 4 matches at Wrestlemania. People will whine that those left out were "buried", but it's literally impossible to push everyone as a top guy. If anybody here wants to post their fantasy week-by-week and month-by-month booking after one these "countless" ruined angles by the WWE, I'm sure we could all negatively pick it apart just like anything else that happens on TV. Everybody can't be in the main event, but pretty much everyone on the roster deserves to be booked better than they have been and deserve to be given more than they have. Just because someone can't be in the main event doesn't mean they should have their credibility shot to hell, or that they should be buried into nonexistence.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Jun 7, 2015 17:14:35 GMT -5
It's not ruining, it is enhancing it.
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Post by 2 Cold Scorkum on Jun 7, 2015 17:22:58 GMT -5
why is it not attitude era now thumbs up if u agree
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,664
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Post by Bo Rida on Jun 7, 2015 17:29:53 GMT -5
The alternative fantasy booking ideas for whatever the WWE "ruined" never sound like guaranteed "huge money makers" to me. And while message board posters generally want everything to be blown up and changed all the time, the WWE has to actually deal with the consequences of those decisions. Pushing the NXT season 1 cast to the moon as a modern NWO wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run either - their limitations and inexperience got exposed pretty quickly. And every time you do something huge and crazy for the sake of "change", you lessen the impact of future big storylines and before you know it you're Vince Russo. ...not everybody can get main event pushes, or pushes at all. People will whine that those left out were "buried", but it's literally impossible to push everyone as a top guy. If anybody here wants to post their fantasy week-by-week and month-by-month booking after one these "countless" ruined angles by the WWE, I'm sure we could all negatively pick it apart just like anything else that happens on TV. While what you say is largely true it's WWE that set those expectations. If they don't want Cesaro to be a top star then they shouldn't have pushed him like he was about become one after WM30, if there are no plans for a "bigger picture" with the potential to change everything why keep talking about it? Maybe the fantasy booking isn't that great and wouldn't make money but it exists because of the desire for a satisfying payoff to a storyline or arc that WWE didn't even attempt to deliver.
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Post by molson5 on Jun 7, 2015 17:40:51 GMT -5
The alternative fantasy booking ideas for whatever the WWE "ruined" never sound like guaranteed "huge money makers" to me. And while message board posters generally want everything to be blown up and changed all the time, the WWE has to actually deal with the consequences of those decisions. Unlike fantasy bookers, they don't have to only concern themselves with the last real show and then build from there. Cena turning heel in 2007 or 2008 wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run - he probably would have changed several times back and forth since then. Pushing the NXT season 1 cast to the moon as a modern NWO wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run either - their limitations and inexperience got exposed pretty quickly. And every time you do something huge and crazy for the sake of "change", you lessen the impact of future big storylines and before you know it you're Vince Russo. And for every guy you feature and push to the moon as dominant you're going to have to distribute losses throughout the roster. Listening to fans complain about pushes always sounds like how Dick Vitale used to talk about the NCAA tournament selection process. He liked everybody, he thought every bubble team should get in, and everyone should have a high seed. If you listened closely, he was basically advocating for 80 teams to get in, and for 10 teams to get #1 seeds. In real life, that's literally not possible, and when you're actually in the position to make these decisions, not everybody can get main event pushes, or pushes at all. We're going to see this very soon with all the influx of NXT talent. There's a ton of guys with the skills to be featured WWE players, but not all of them can be in the top 7 or 8 guys, in the featured 3 or 4 matches at Wrestlemania. People will whine that those left out were "buried", but it's literally impossible to push everyone as a top guy. If anybody here wants to post their fantasy week-by-week and month-by-month booking after one these "countless" ruined angles by the WWE, I'm sure we could all negatively pick it apart just like anything else that happens on TV. Everybody can't be in the main event, but pretty much everyone on the roster deserves to be booked better than they have been and deserve to be given more than they have. Just because someone can't be in the main event doesn't mean they should have their credibility shot to hell, or that they should be buried into nonexistence. I'm not sure what you mean by giving everyone more credibility, but it is literally impossible to give every single guy more wins - it's not even possible to give more than half the workers more wins. Unless they bring back jobber squashes, which I'm definitely in favor of. Otherwise, every time someone wins, someone else has to lose. All you can do is re-distribute wins and losses, you can't increase the number of net wins. If you want Zack Ryder to have more credibility, then he'll have to beat guys like Ziggler occasionally, and of course people whine when Ziggler loses. The WWE tries to use some non-clean finishes to limit the number of losses the bulk of the roster takes, but of course people whine about that too. There is no win/loss distribution that stop people from whining.
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Post by molson5 on Jun 7, 2015 17:47:27 GMT -5
The alternative fantasy booking ideas for whatever the WWE "ruined" never sound like guaranteed "huge money makers" to me. And while message board posters generally want everything to be blown up and changed all the time, the WWE has to actually deal with the consequences of those decisions. Pushing the NXT season 1 cast to the moon as a modern NWO wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run either - their limitations and inexperience got exposed pretty quickly. And every time you do something huge and crazy for the sake of "change", you lessen the impact of future big storylines and before you know it you're Vince Russo. ...not everybody can get main event pushes, or pushes at all. People will whine that those left out were "buried", but it's literally impossible to push everyone as a top guy. If anybody here wants to post their fantasy week-by-week and month-by-month booking after one these "countless" ruined angles by the WWE, I'm sure we could all negatively pick it apart just like anything else that happens on TV. While what you say is largely true it's WWE that set those expectations. If they don't want Cesaro to be a top star then they shouldn't have pushed him like he was about become one after WM30, if there are no plans for a "bigger picture" with the potential to change everything why keep talking about it? Maybe the fantasy booking isn't that great and wouldn't make money but it exists because of the desire for a satisfying payoff to a storyline or arc that WWE didn't even attempt to deliver. Guys like Ziggler and Cesaro occasionally having success in big moments doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to get indefinite pushes at the top of the card. Nor should it. Cesaro had that battle royal win, Ziggler gets the occasional brush with the main event like at Survivor Series - that shows that both guys are higher up than your average midcarder, but it can't guarantee near-main-event spots forever. There's a lot of talented guys on this roster. That's going to be even more true with the influx of NXT guys over the next year or two. There's maybe what, 15 or 20 guys who are really talented and could be in near-the-top-of-the-card angles matches? They can't all be up there at the same time. And you also need talent in the tag team division and the midcard. People claim they want depth in the midcard and tag teams, but then they declare those guys "buried."
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,133
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 7, 2015 17:50:24 GMT -5
The alternative fantasy booking ideas for whatever the WWE "ruined" never sound like guaranteed "huge money makers" to me. And while message board posters generally want everything to be blown up and changed all the time, the WWE has to actually deal with the consequences of those decisions. Pushing the NXT season 1 cast to the moon as a modern NWO wouldn't have necessarily been great in the long run either - their limitations and inexperience got exposed pretty quickly. And every time you do something huge and crazy for the sake of "change", you lessen the impact of future big storylines and before you know it you're Vince Russo. ...not everybody can get main event pushes, or pushes at all. People will whine that those left out were "buried", but it's literally impossible to push everyone as a top guy. If anybody here wants to post their fantasy week-by-week and month-by-month booking after one these "countless" ruined angles by the WWE, I'm sure we could all negatively pick it apart just like anything else that happens on TV. While what you say is largely true it's WWE that set those expectations. If they don't want Cesaro to be a top star then they shouldn't have pushed him like he was about become one after WM30, if there are no plans for a "bigger picture" with the potential to change everything why keep talking about it? Maybe the fantasy booking isn't that great and wouldn't make money but it exists because of the desire for a satisfying payoff to a storyline or arc that WWE didn't even attempt to deliver. Or they should have had a position where "upper midcarder" was a good thing. This year, him mixing with Dolph, Neville, Sheamus etc. would be a good thing, lots of combinations, trying to add prestige to the US and IC belts. The year before was bad timing, they were still in the "main event or, well, who gives a crap about the rest" mode.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Jun 7, 2015 17:51:43 GMT -5
Honestly, after hanging around the TNA board for the past few days due to the Havok thread, WWE are f***ing artistes compared to the clusterf*** that is Impact.
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Post by Captain & Diet on Jun 7, 2015 18:05:31 GMT -5
Because they're publicly traded and don't want to affect the stock price. Things aren't broken so they don't want to rock the boat.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 18:10:45 GMT -5
Are you serious That's a thing What did you wear with your jorts and No Fear bandana while sipping Surge listening to nu-metal? What a bullshit post. Who SIPS on Surge?
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Jun 7, 2015 18:37:51 GMT -5
it has nothing to do with comparisons to TNA or fear of anything.
it's a man with a narrow vision who is out of touch that is surrounded by yes men/women that has the final say.
you can say what you want about HHH, but if he took over Raw tomorrow it would get better immediately.
people want to reference Punk, that angle wrote itself. Cena put him over, more than once, and the rest of his rise was clear as day. ride the momentum of that summer, so what if Rock was coming back? if Punk can break that mythical glass ceiling of mainstream that only a few others before him had been able to do, then you go with it and make TONS of money. he was poised for super-stardom. okay so Kevin Nash isn't involved, so what? you still book him strong, let HIM main event the PPV's, you cut him loose like you did Austin and rake in the money from ticket sales, and merchandise; while making even more bank from media exposure. i'm not a Punk fan at all, but this isn't something people can ignore. the dude should have been made after that summer.
so what if some people on here don't think Ziggler is main event worthy? the fans certainly do. and he could add an underdog babyface drama to matches that no one else currently can bring. not saying he has to win the belt, but he deserves to be up in that echelon. if Sheamus can get world title runs, so can Ziggler. again, you push the guy, merch sales go up, the fans eat it up, and it's win win. not stick in the mud Vince with predetermined ideas.
there are so many examples of common sense - clear as day - programs being ruined because of the boss's tunnel vision. the man had the audacity to say he listens to the fans all the while it took the fans becoming an 'act of God' for Bryan to finally get in the Main Event of Wrestlemania. the man honestly believed we wanted Sheamus v Bryan and Orton v Batista. seriously?
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 7, 2015 19:56:56 GMT -5
Because they're publicly traded and don't want to affect the stock price. Things aren't broken so they don't want to rock the boat. I think it's this, combined with Vince's infamous fickleness. It would've been a risk to scale Cena back and really try Punk or Bryan in his place; they didn't want to chance ANY slip in ratings (ironic, given how many less viewers they have now compared just a few years ago), so they didn't dare take any creative risks and chance a minor slowdown while they rebuild the show and presentation style. WWE's biggest problem for well over a decade now has been its inability to craft storylines, character arcs, feuds, or scenarios that feel like they have tangible, lasting consequences. Consider that they have the absolute biggest game-changing character in modern wrestling history available to them: Brock Goddamned Lesnar. Lesnar appearing on Raw should be the equivalent of a DC Crisis event, the equivalent of the 9th episode in a season of Game of Thrones, the equivalent of taking a well-crafted drama and just dropping a freaking F5 (no pun intended) tornado on it so that anything you were just invested in is now irrevocably screwed. They even DID partially attempt this: they had him go full-scale Doomsday and freaking kill Superman at SummerSlam 2014. What was the consequence of this? Absolutely nothing. The reasons why nothing changed are varied; they used up Brock's contracted dates super early for no good reason. They still wanted to make sure Cena was seen as "the man" despite his loss. Vince remains fickle and changes what everybody's doing on a regular basis. The writers may be capable of more, but most of them don't really grasp the industry and many of them are too afraid of losing their jobs to risk making creative waves. There are stockholders, there's the Network to consider, and the company refuses to risk anything that could lead to a short term loss of viewers...meanwhile, over the long term, they're losing viewers in droves. There are no stakes, nothing matters, no characters change, because taking creative risks isn't best for business. Kevin Owens may be the main show's chance to prove that they're capable of more than they typically show; the dude is a complex character going back to his days as Kevin Steen, clearly had a good creative and in-ring track record in NXT, and is now in the limelight with a clean win against Superman himself. If they can show Owens creating consequences, show changes in him and characters around him, then maybe that's a sign of better creative ideas to come. If we get back to "lol Cena wins" and nothing changes, well...it'll be the same as it's been since about 2002.
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gr1990
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,485
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Post by gr1990 on Jun 7, 2015 19:58:35 GMT -5
All of the above, plus the fact that Vince rarely seems to understand WHY a lot of things are popular, just that they are. It was reported a lot that he didn't understand the appeal of the Punk and Bryan characters, and that was reflected in their booking. They usually stumble on their best stuff by accident or by letting a performer think outside the box and be themselves, particularly these days.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 20:01:25 GMT -5
What did you wear with your jorts and No Fear bandana while sipping Surge listening to nu-metal? What a bullshit post. Who SIPS on Surge? You chug that shit to the XTREME while watching Shasta McNasty
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Post by xCompackx on Jun 7, 2015 20:02:52 GMT -5
All of the above, plus the fact that Vince rarely seems to understand WHY a lot of things are popular, just that they are. It was reported a lot that he didn't understand the appeal of the Punk and Bryan characters, and that was reflected in their booking. They usually stumble on their best stuff by accident or by letting a performer think outside the box and be themselves, particularly these days. I think Vince gets Daniel Bryan to a degree. They've portrayed him well as someone the fans can relate to and all that. Punk on the other hand... I'm not really sure I understand his character either, when you get right down to it.
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Post by Hickster on Jun 7, 2015 20:50:22 GMT -5
What did you wear with your jorts and No Fear bandana while sipping Surge listening to nu-metal? What a bullshit post. Who SIPS on Surge? If Goldberg is on the can, you have to pound it. It's the law.
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SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
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Post by SAJ Forth on Jun 7, 2015 20:53:12 GMT -5
That's what happens when the person heading the place has no one to shake him into reality.
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