Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,089
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 2, 2015 7:23:51 GMT -5
I have to think that being a wrestling fan has to be hard on the more "socially-conscious" posters here.
Not because Vince is insensitive to intersectional and identity concerns, but because the very nature of the socially-conscious is to look at something like this and declare it shouldn't exist, for the wrestlers' own good.
On the one hand, you know that they knew the consequences and still chose to pursue this as a career.
On the other, you can't help but feel like something needs to be done!, and that they need to somehow be protected from the heartless companies that would promote such a potentially dangerous business.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 2, 2015 8:35:56 GMT -5
I have to think that being a wrestling fan has to be hard on the more "socially-conscious" posters here. Not because Vince is insensitive to intersectional and identity concerns, but because the very nature of the socially-conscious is to look at something like this and declare it shouldn't exist, for the wrestlers' own good. On the one hand, you know that they knew the consequences and still chose to pursue this as a career. On the other, you can't help but feel like something needs to be done!, and that they need to somehow be protected from the heartless companies that would promote such a potentially dangerous business. I mean..... yes. What is your point?
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 2, 2015 8:51:12 GMT -5
It's also an entirely emotional move to compare wrestling to football or swimming or whatever in the first place. The entire thing is, "Hey, you feel okay with those things, right? So you should be okay with this other thing I'm comparing to it!" That stuff is totally irrelevant. People have died explicitly and unarguably because of pro wrestling. Literally in the ring. Many other people have died indirectly because of painkiller or other drug addictions. Still many others are alive but have much lower quality of life from having been wrestlers. Should that exist? Is the freedom to do it worth that price, and, importantly, the price of encouraging other, younger and more naive people to do it later? That's the interesting point of contention. Liberty vs. care. When the main thrust of argument is "Wrestlers die at a higher clip than other athletes", I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for proof of that statement beyond "Oh, well, don't you see it?" I don't see how that's an appeal to emotion at all. Talking about the "poor, young, misguided lambs being led to the slaughter by Vince's Judas Goats" is a much more emotional response than asking for hard numbers proving your point. The first person to mention football, etc. was on your side: arguing that wrestling should exist. And... I know you'll be all "burden of proof!" here, but you haven't exactly been a fountain of statistics either. So, this is all a distraction. This is not the main thrust of the argument at all. The point is: Wrestling is dangerous, and that's stupid, because it's dudes pretending to fight. Well? And look, stop saying that "it sucks when people get hurt or die" is an appeal to emotion. It's not. If chronic pain, death, drug addiction, and injury aren't valid as consequences to be avoided, then what on earth are?
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Post by eJm on Jul 2, 2015 8:52:26 GMT -5
I have to think that being a wrestling fan has to be hard on the more "socially-conscious" posters here. Not because Vince is insensitive to intersectional and identity concerns, but because the very nature of the socially-conscious is to look at something like this and declare it shouldn't exist, for the wrestlers' own good. On the one hand, you know that they knew the consequences and still chose to pursue this as a career. On the other, you can't help but feel like something needs to be done!, and that they need to somehow be protected from the heartless companies that would promote such a potentially dangerous business. I mean..... yes. What is your point? I think what they mean, and correct me if I'm wrong Polaris, is that wrestling is a messed up industry. It's not even a secret anymore. It treats its employees as cattle and has an underbelly of hate towards other cultures, races, genders, the works along with most of the people running these companies being gigantic children. You could write a book about the racism in pro wrestling alone, never mind anything else. Yet, there's still that concern on what would happen if wrestling DID get its act together and how much it would affect those companies because, at the end of the day, it's a big time niche product that isn't guarenteed to boom again in the same way it did the 80s and 90s. At the end of the day, companies would have to simply adapt their business plans but that isn't going to exactly happen anytime soon for companies to really care.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jul 2, 2015 8:55:41 GMT -5
I have to think that being a wrestling fan has to be hard on the more "socially-conscious" posters here. Not because Vince is insensitive to intersectional and identity concerns, but because the very nature of the socially-conscious is to look at something like this and declare it shouldn't exist, for the wrestlers' own good. On the one hand, you know that they knew the consequences and still chose to pursue this as a career. On the other, you can't help but feel like something needs to be done!, and that they need to somehow be protected from the heartless companies that would promote such a potentially dangerous business. To me, the first hand's argument absolutely destroys the second. They took the job, they knew the risks. If they didn't, then it's their fault for not doing the research before taking the risks. End of discussion. And here's the important thing: At any point...they're free to walk away. People act like Vince is holding a gun to peep's heads here.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 2, 2015 9:11:24 GMT -5
I mean..... yes. What is your point? I think what they mean, and correct me if I'm wrong Polaris, is that wrestling is a messed up industry. It's not even a secret anymore. It treats its employees as cattle and has an underbelly of hate towards other cultures, races, genders, the works along with most of the people running these companies being gigantic children. You could write a book about the racism in pro wrestling alone, never mind anything else. Yet, there's still that concern on what would happen if wrestling DID get its act together and how much it would affect those companies because, at the end of the day, it's a big time niche product that isn't guarenteed to boom again in the same way it did the 80s and 90s. At the end of the day, companies would have to simply adapt their business plans but that isn't going to exactly happen anytime soon for companies to really care. Yeah, and that's true. It's true for a lot of things. Lots of the stuff I like hurt people. But, I figure it's always worth it to dig into that, even if the conclusion I come to is that I'm helpless. Sometimes it's not worth it to me to keep supporting the company or institution and sometimes it is, but I feel like I get something out of the self-conversation.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,089
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 2, 2015 9:13:53 GMT -5
I mean..... yes. What is your point? I think what they mean, and correct me if I'm wrong Polaris, is that wrestling is a messed up industry. It's not even a secret anymore. It treats its employees as cattle and has an underbelly of hate towards other cultures, races, genders, the works along with most of the people running these companies being gigantic children. You could write a book about the racism in pro wrestling alone, never mind anything else. Yet, there's still that concern on what would happen if wrestling DID get its act together and how much it would affect those companies because, at the end of the day, it's a big time niche product that isn't guarenteed to boom again in the same way it did the 80s and 90s. At the end of the day, companies would have to simply adapt their business plans but that isn't going to exactly happen anytime soon for companies to really care. My point is that for the " something needs to be done!" crowd, when one looks at it, what " needs to be done" (more layers of HR oversight, government regulation, unions) will basically put "the business" out of business. And I think they know this, but still sort of want to have it both ways. They want to have a "this business" that they don't have to feel guilty about, but know in the back of their minds that "this business" isn't really economically viable in such a form.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 2, 2015 9:51:41 GMT -5
I think what they mean, and correct me if I'm wrong Polaris, is that wrestling is a messed up industry. It's not even a secret anymore. It treats its employees as cattle and has an underbelly of hate towards other cultures, races, genders, the works along with most of the people running these companies being gigantic children. You could write a book about the racism in pro wrestling alone, never mind anything else. Yet, there's still that concern on what would happen if wrestling DID get its act together and how much it would affect those companies because, at the end of the day, it's a big time niche product that isn't guarenteed to boom again in the same way it did the 80s and 90s. At the end of the day, companies would have to simply adapt their business plans but that isn't going to exactly happen anytime soon for companies to really care. My point is that for the " something needs to be done!" crowd, when one looks at it, what " needs to be done" (more layers of HR oversight, government regulation, unions) will basically put "the business" out of business. And I think they know this, but still sort of want to have it both ways. They want to have a "this business" that they don't have to feel guilty about, but know in the back of their minds that "this business" isn't really economically viable in such a form. ...yes, therefore the question "Should wrestling exist?" I mean, your blithe assumption that the only solutions are top-down regulations and that such problem-solving regulation kills business is... let's say, overly general and extreme. But even in cases where there's something innate in the thing that's harmful (like, say, the athletic violence both causes the chronic wear-and-tear on the performers and is fun to watch), then...yeah. Gotta confront that the thing shouldn't exist, even though I like it. Guess I don't really understand what's so tragic or terrible about coming to the conclusion that things you like shouldn't exist, or that things you like are harmful but worth it for you anyway. The alternative would be not caring, and that seems worse to me.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 2, 2015 10:38:29 GMT -5
Wrestling should exist, hardcore wrestling, pointless stunt match ppvs and the WWE's 'work through injury/half your recovery time from surgery or never see a push again' attitude need to die for it to continue to do so.
Seriously, if the WWE want former talent to stop suing them, stop giving them reason to, talent having time off to recover from injury isn't going to cripple the company, it will help their longevity in fact, helping to stave off staleness and giving creative time to come up with something new for them to do. Keep pushing guys to work hurt and eventually you're going to see the Dolph Zigglers and Jack Swaggers turn around and sue after being released, people who got into wrestling for the money and won't labor under the illusion that someday they'll be rehired when they've been around long enough to see it's a once in a blue moon thing,
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,654
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 2, 2015 10:56:07 GMT -5
I've always said wrestling is this strange animal. It should've died in the 1930s when that infamous incident where a reporter got drunk with a bunch of promoters, who spilled the beans on the next night's card results and the reporter put it in the paper. That should've killed the sport dead as people thought it was a legit sporting event before then, but instead.... it adapted, survived and thrived. Wrestling is unlike almost any other medium, so explaining how it came to be compared to how it is, is pretty difficult when you're searching for rationale. I think this is the far more interesting point. As far as the danger aspect, every sport has danger to it. (For those looking for numbers, about 8-12 high school football players die each year. Back 100 years ago when the sport was in its infancy, President Roosevelt threatened to ban it if it weren't made safer because 19 kids died in the 1905 college football season alone. So yeah it's always been dangerous). But I don't see how anyone today could invent a fake sport, present it as a real one and make it this popular. It's just so strange. I have a hard time understanding how it survived this long to begin with. It's been at or near the top of my favorite things for my whole life so I'm glad it does exist, but...yeah just strange.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jul 2, 2015 11:03:37 GMT -5
My point is that for the " something needs to be done!" crowd, when one looks at it, what " needs to be done" (more layers of HR oversight, government regulation, unions) will basically put "the business" out of business. And I think they know this, but still sort of want to have it both ways. They want to have a "this business" that they don't have to feel guilty about, but know in the back of their minds that "this business" isn't really economically viable in such a form. Even then, the big point with the " something needs to be done!" crowd does go to the real question for "the business", whether it's socially responsible or not: Is professional wrestling "unsafe at any speed"?The only way you can make an argument that "professional wrestling should not exist", is not whether "you can do something about pro wrestling", but rather if you can assume that the very act of professional wrestling would be inherently completely unsafe, EVEN IF you add every possible thing to do to make it safer. This, to me, is a complete load of crap. With the examples made- WWE has already managed to institute a Wellness Policy which has both lowered the amount of drug use in the sport (as mentioned, a big reason for most of the drug-related casualties), as well as has helped screen out a number of the people who had genetic problems that would hinder their safety, allowing them to get the disorder fixed or, if impossible, keep them out of the industry. This alone has shown marked improvements in making pro wrestling safer than it was in years past- when looking at wrestlers who died young, it's also noticable that only two wrestlers who's WWE career basically coincided with the Wellness Policy era- Umaga and Lance Cade- have passed away. That alone is a big improvement and seems to show that the system is starting to work. Once you go further beyond that, many of the examples are also beginning to change things for the better. Hardcore and deathmatch wrestling is out of fashion, in large part due to people realizing the inherent risks in it. Even on the indy scene itself with workrate, head-dropping moves are out of fashion, and more people are disgusted by people trying unprotected chairshots when they would never notice it. All of these things make it clear- YES, professional wrestling both can- and IS- getting safer right now, which does make it possible to be socially responsible as far as the sport goes inside the ring.
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Post by CuJ0 Will Keep Dancing on Jul 2, 2015 11:55:30 GMT -5
With wrestlers though, it's not just the sport. It's the lifestyle. A lot of jazz musicians were dying young in the 50s and 60s, it's not because jazz is physically damaging to play. It's just the eccentric people it attracted were also more likely to make riskier decisions in life, just like wrestling. The lifestyle seems to have cleared up, and hopefully that means we'll see a lot less of these guys dying young. Well now that you mention it, here's an actual study about Rock Star life expectancy (Spoiler: it's 25 years younger than the average person) LinkWrestling itself is basically performance art broadcast on television. Now I would imagine that the deaths DIRECTLY caused by wrestling would probably be few in comparison to the decades wrestling has been around and the amount of people that have actually wrestled. In fact most of these Wrestler deaths are the cause of lifestyle choices. Cocaine abuse, steroid abuse, pill abuse, and alcohol abuse and these things are either ACTUALLY banned or government controlled. So the individuals take took these drugs made the choice to do these things illegally. Now one could make the argument that as the result of the pain of wrestling and the stress of being on the road led the wrestlers to use narcotics for relief. Which is a fair point but then you get into the idea that any sport or form of entertainment that puts wear and tear on the body and could potentially lead to drug use shouldn't exist. Although even if these sports or art forms didn't exist who's to say that these guys wouldn't just do these self destructive things anyway?
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jul 2, 2015 12:02:56 GMT -5
With wrestlers though, it's not just the sport. It's the lifestyle. A lot of jazz musicians were dying young in the 50s and 60s, it's not because jazz is physically damaging to play. It's just the eccentric people it attracted were also more likely to make riskier decisions in life, just like wrestling. The lifestyle seems to have cleared up, and hopefully that means we'll see a lot less of these guys dying young. Well now that you mention here's an actual study about Rock Star life expectancy (Spoiler: it's 25 years younger than the average person) LinkWrestling itself is basically performance art broadcast on television. Now I would imagine that the deaths DIRECTLY caused by wrestling would probably be few in comparison to the decades wrestling has been around and the amount of people that have actually wrestled. In fact most of these Wrestler deaths are the cause of lifestyle choices. Cocaine abuse, steroid abuse, pill abuse, and alcohol abuse and these things are either ACTUALLY banned or government controlled. So the individuals take took these drugs made the choice to do these things illegally. Now one could make the argument that as the result of the pain of wrestling and the stress of being on the road led the wrestlers to use narcotics for relief. Which is a fair point but then you get into the idea that any sport or form of entertainment that puts wear and tear on the body and could potentially lead to drug use shouldn't exist. Although even if these sports or art forms didn't exist who's to say that these guys wouldn't just do these self destructive things anyway? Exactly. Without pro wrestling, do we think....let's use Jeff Hardy, for an example, do we think Jeff Hardy would be a model, upstanding citizen, leader of the local Cameron, NC chapter of the 4H club? f*** no, that dude would be straight making meth to pay for the next Peroxwhy?gen recording session. Some people, you just can't "save" from themselves.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Jul 2, 2015 12:06:51 GMT -5
Tons of football players die under or around the age of 50 too. I mean like more than wrestlers and mostly from the same problems. I'm just saying.
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Post by JTG Fan on Jul 2, 2015 12:07:39 GMT -5
No it is an abomination to God.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jul 2, 2015 12:48:32 GMT -5
Tons of football players die under or around the age of 50 too. I mean like more than wrestlers and mostly from the same problems. I'm just saying. This ties into the next question mark about the safety of professional wrestling, though: The scouting methods of WWE. It's no secret that WWE scouts- and HAS scouted- a number of former football players to become professional wrestlers- and you can't really blame WWE for the choice (big, strong, agile guys who know how to memorize different spots on the field to the letter is a pretty big premium for a pro wrestler). However, it'll also be a question as CTE rises- exactly how much is based on their football experience and how much is based on their pro wrestling experience? Pro wrestling is clearly similar in problems (studies have claim being in a pro wrestling match, on average, would be roughly as strenuous an activity as playing a lineman in football)- but there's also the question of how much each thing would happen (especially since football IS "unsafe at any speed", and CTE has been seen in football players who have committed suicide as low as in the high school ranks.) This also ties into what the media would trumpet in people who could have CTE as well: Using a hypothetical- assuming Brock Lesnar were to have CTE, you'd have a person who was a professional wrestler for 7 years, 5 of them as a part-time performer, someone who was a very well known MMA competitor, and someone who went to NFL training camp and played in high school. Assuming he were to have CTE, do you blame his time as a WWE wrestler, a UFC fighter, or an NFL player? It's viable for any of those to take place...and this would also add to a blurry line for the inherent safety of pro wrestling.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 2, 2015 13:27:04 GMT -5
If people can pitch shit like the Kardashians TV shows ("OK, there's this girl....who was in a sex tape....and we follow her and her equally talentless, useless, waste of skin family around") and get greenlit, wrestling would sound reasonable by comparison.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 13:57:50 GMT -5
Wrestling is a very strange concept in just about every conceivable way when you really start to think about it.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,286
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 2, 2015 15:14:32 GMT -5
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Post by The Beast Disincarnate on Jul 2, 2015 15:49:21 GMT -5
So, OP is capable of writing more than 10 words without an hateful comment about Roman Reigns? May well be the first time in 6 months, good to see that
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