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Post by Drillbit Taylor on Aug 13, 2006 22:09:24 GMT -5
It is a sign of Herritage and pride.It is heritage not hate. Like said before. Old Glory flew over slavery for how long before it ended. In fact slavery was not outlawed with the emanicpation prcolimation(sp). It only outlawed it in CSA held areas. So New Orleans, which had allready had been taken over by the Union,still had slavery years affter the cival war.
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nisi
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Post by nisi on Aug 13, 2006 22:19:25 GMT -5
I don't know of any laws against displaying the Confederate flag, that's an interesting freedom of expression issue, but your analogy just doesn't work, Master Betty.
No one is arguing that the swastika is okay because Hitler produced the Volkswagen or that the Confederate flag is okay because slavery wasn't that bad. LOTS of people would argue that "gay is good," as the slogan from before I was born put it. Homosexuality as normal, healthy, holy, and yes, even fabulous.
Homophobia will eventually die out the same way Nazi-ism and extreme racism are dying out to tiny segments of extremists in the population. Ironically the rainbow flag ORIGINALLY symbolized simply diversity in all forms, of which homosexuality was merely one. Eventually it beat out the pink triangle to become the de facto gay symbol. It really DOESN'T mean general diversity anymore, even though lots of people might wish it still did. It BECAME a gay symbol through force of cultural change, whether diversity advocates like it or not. In the bible the rainbow is the symbol of God's covenant with Noah and in general a sign of God's total faithfulness--but even conservative religionists THINK "gay" when they see a rainbow symbol.
The symbol which has been taken over by the most extreme meaning eventually LOSES the original meaning. The swastika DOES NOT mean the Christian Resurrection anymore, even though for over a thousand years it did. The Confederate flag simply does not mean "good Southern traditions" anymore, even though for many years it did. The symbol cannot retain the original meaning in the face of overwhelming cultural change. It's not a moral issue or a choice; it's simply how human interaction takes place through culture.
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EvilMasterBetty, Esq.
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Post by EvilMasterBetty, Esq. on Aug 13, 2006 22:38:44 GMT -5
While Nazi-ism has become fringe, the most used meaning of the swastika, an anti-Semetic symbol, is no where near dying down.
Also, while there aren't laws banning the display of it, people sure are pushing for people to stop showing it, which is basically the same thing. Who am I or you to say that a person displaying a flag is a bigot? Maybe they have legit reasons for it. So unless you know ever single person that displays a confederate flag, you cannot say that the symbol means something different than what they take it as.
Plus, many private universites ban the display of the Confederate flag, yet allow dispalys of pretty much every other kind, including flags from every other nation in the world and organization. Who's to say that a group of student's won't be offended by seeing an Israeli flag hanging in a dorm window?
Also, comparing the swastika to the Confederate flag, based on the symbolism, is a stretch. The Swastika represented the eradication of an entire religion from the face of the earth and the purification of the white race. So essencially, it's a symbol of mass genocide. The Confederate flag, while carrying negative connotations, does not reach that level.
My problem with this is that people think it's OK to try to supress someone's freedom to show a symbol that does carry some positive meanings and can have deep personal connections just because they get offended. If that was the case, we'd have to ban every kind of flag or display because someone, somewhere will always take offense to it. If I were to go back to school next week and see a rainbow flag, or Israeli flag, or Muslim flag, or French flag or whatever flag that's not Confederate, and go to the administration and say that I'm offended, chances are I'd either be laughed out of the room or ostricized by the campus for being "un-PC". It is a bit hypocritical and pompus to claim that we as a people have the right to say that a symbol that has both positive & negative conotations is negative for one symbol (the confederate flag) and positive for another (anything else)
Or, as I said before, the other option is to just look away and not let it bother you.
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Post by Dr. Marzvon Zombie M.D. on Aug 13, 2006 23:01:59 GMT -5
Trust me i live in Georgia these Hicks think the south will rise again, shakes head in shame, pretty place thou.
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Post by wrestlesmarks on Aug 13, 2006 23:24:08 GMT -5
I am from the south and I hate the Confederate Flag. I find it funny that all the people who have them displayed or wear shirts with Confederate flags on them are some of the most "patriotic" Americans, as far as loving America and supporting the troops (me) but appearantly they failed history class. The Confederate Flag is a flag of treasoners and traitors to the United States of America, it represents a "country" that tried to destroy the Union of America.
I don't really care about the racial elements to it, I am a white male and really such at empathy but I think if they want to get people to stop flying and wearing the Confederate flag they should tell people the true story behind it and not that its racist. Cause I am sure the people who fly them would rather not be a traitor instead of a racist.
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nisi
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Post by nisi on Aug 13, 2006 23:28:20 GMT -5
While Nazi-ism has become fringe, the most used meaning of the swastika, an anti-Semetic symbol, is no where near dying down. No, what I'm saying is that the ORIGINAL symbol of the swastika as a Christian cross has been completely lost. There is beautiful calligraphy in prayerbooks from centuries ago decorated with swastikas, and they aren't even displayed anymore, because the power of the new meaning of the same symbol is so complete. Again, no one gets to "say" what a symbol means. A symbol's meaning is NON-VERBAL. And it doesn't matter that some random person is offended by the Israeli flag--it's not about offending individuals but about what the symbol has COME to mean. I think you're simply wrong about this. Owning slaves is simply more than a "negative connotation." The Confederate flag USED TO have a broader meaning about Southern gentility and tradition; it has simply LOST that broad meaning over time. Slavery is the immediate and irresistible thought that comes to mind at the sight of the Confederate flag, just as in a very short time "gay" has become the automatic meaning and instant perception of the rainbow flag. It doesn't matter what the flag user WANTS the immediate meaning to be; what matters is how the symbol is instantly perceived. No one can look at a Confederate flag and not think of slavery. I can't imagine that a legal ban on the Confederate flag would get through the courts--if it's legal to BURN Old Glory then I think the Stars & Bars are pretty safe! But whether the user likes it or not, displaying a Confederate flag unavoidably makes an implication about slavery, just as a rainbow flag makes an implication about homosexuality or a swastika makes an implication about the Nazis. Arguing that the implication was unintended does not prevent the implication from being made in all its force. Public displays of symbols simply don't get to have a "deep personal meaning." If you wear a ring on the third finger of your left hand, you are symbolizing that you are married. You might decide that you want the symbol to mean that you NEVER intend to get married. Doesn't matter--no one will EVER perceive you that way. The symbol means what it has inexorably come to mean. Earrings on men used to symbolize all kinds of sexual messages that this symbol has simply lost over time--no one can look at a man wearing an earring and credibly argue that it means something about sexual orientation. It USED TO, but NOW it doesn't. Wearing a beeper USED TO be taken as a sign you might be a drug dealer! Only actual drug dealers wanted that symbol, but others were affected by it whether they wanted to be or not. Good discussion! This thread has become quite interesting.
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