Klutch
Unicron
Not so good at that whole noticing thing.
Posts: 3,115
|
Post by Klutch on Aug 13, 2006 15:11:37 GMT -5
What do you feel the Rebel Flag stands for? I think its a piece of southern history and pride. I try to look past it's dark history. Some people feel its a symbol of ignorance.
|
|
MCP Hates You
Hank Scorpio
Wonders "Why in the world am I so fired?"
Posts: 5,362
|
Post by MCP Hates You on Aug 13, 2006 15:17:34 GMT -5
I think that it has too many negative connotations to be flown without causing a lot of issues. Thus, I am opposed to it and feel that a lot of people hide behind the "Southern history" argument to protect their ignorance.
|
|
|
Post by amsiraK on Aug 13, 2006 15:17:38 GMT -5
It's hard to, since it has so much darkness behind it.
But I've long thought of it as the topper to the General Lee.
|
|
nisi
Vegeta
Da Bears
Posts: 9,868
|
Post by nisi on Aug 13, 2006 15:26:56 GMT -5
The swastika is actually a symbol of the Resurrection in Christian history--a cross with every arm broken. If you read the diaries of the Romanovs (Russian royal family executued by the Communists in 1918) you will see that they doodled swastikas on almost every page as a quaint pietism.
HOWEVER, there is simply no way the power of the symbol can survive what happened with the Nazis. I think the Confederate flag falls into the same boat--no matter how much rich history there is behind it, it can't survive the association with slavery.
|
|
|
Post by Rorschach on Aug 13, 2006 15:57:03 GMT -5
The swastika is actually a symbol of the Resurrection in Christian history--a cross with every arm broken. If you read the diaries of the Romanovs (Russian royal family executued by the Communists in 1918) you will see that they doodled swastikas on almost every page as a quaint pietism. HOWEVER, there is simply no way the power of the symbol can survive what happened with the Nazis. I think the Confederate flag falls into the same boat--no matter how much rich history there is behind it, it can't survive the association with slavery. Very well said....but I am one of those that look past that, to what the people who carried it believed it stood for: Their personal freedom. Therefore, I don't get all worked up about it whenever I see it.
|
|
nisi
Vegeta
Da Bears
Posts: 9,868
|
Post by nisi on Aug 13, 2006 16:07:00 GMT -5
I don't get worked up about it either, but logically the symbol has lost all effectiveness. The Confederate flag can't simultaneously stand for personal freedom when it by default symbolizes the suppression of personal freedom. The swastika can't stand for the triumph of life over death when by default it symbolizes the deaths of millions. The default meaning of the symbol cannot be adequately supressed for the symbol to have retained its original meaning.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 13, 2006 16:35:04 GMT -5
I used to love the Confederate battle flag and actually still do for the whole southern thing, so much so that I got it emblazoned under the jewel in my high school class ring.. BUT as has been mentioned, it's tainted by a million bigots, idiots, and hatemongers and become so twisted and perverted from what it was that there's no rescuing it from the stigma it now carries. which royally pisses me off. c'est la vie.
|
|
Deamon Cohln
Don Corleone
AND THAT'S THE GODDAMN TRUTH!
Posts: 1,962
|
Post by Deamon Cohln on Aug 13, 2006 16:40:20 GMT -5
I am a Northerner who is raised by displaced rednecks. As I study the civil war I see the flag as a banner of a country and not as a symbol of hate. Robert E. Lee did not really fight for the south because of slavery, but because of his pride to his state and culture, as did many members of the Army of Virginia. The KKK symbol may be a symbol of hate, but like the Pentagram, the Southern Flag just has caught a bad wrap.
|
|
|
Post by 2 time pro bowler Fred Dryer on Aug 13, 2006 16:43:11 GMT -5
It's definetly a complicated issue, that gets oversimplified by most people, IMO. The stars and stripes flew over slave states for close to 100 years longer then the stars and bars, does that mean we should redesign old glory? Also, to me, when people say the flag represents slavery, they are either misinformed, or have a rather glib interpretation of the cause of the civil war. Was slavery an issue? yes, but it was one of many, and not even the largest one. Also, I guess I'm of the impression that most people who fly the flag, whether in their yard, or at a capitol building, are not advocating a return to slavery.
|
|
Klutch
Unicron
Not so good at that whole noticing thing.
Posts: 3,115
|
Post by Klutch on Aug 13, 2006 16:52:18 GMT -5
It's definetly a complicated issue, that gets oversimplified by most people, IMO. The stars and stripes flew over slave states for close to 100 years longer then the stars and bars, does that mean we should redesign old glory? Also, to me, when people say the flag represents slavery, they are either misinformed, or have a rather glib interpretation of the cause of the civil war. Was slavery an issue? yes, but it was one of many, and not even the largest one. Also, I guess I'm of the impression that most people who fly the flag, whether in their yard, or at a capitol building, are not advocating a return to slavery. Clap, Clap, Clap. Thank you. Somebody that shares my feelings as well.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 13, 2006 16:53:14 GMT -5
I agree totally. The Civil War wouldn't have even been fought over just slavery It's so easy to look at the 'heroic' North vs the 'evil' South but as vile and hideous a practice enslaving another human being is, there's no way the Union would have went to battle solely to end slavery. AND Lee was asked to head the Northern army first, that's how much of a military genius the guy was. Yup I got WAAAY too much exposure to the History Channel. Actually just a buff.
|
|
|
Post by EvilMasterComatose on Aug 13, 2006 17:02:03 GMT -5
It's just symbolic for the south. I being an african american (legally, anyways.) Don't mind it as much as I could see some letting it bother them. In this day and age, people are not flossing it to make a statement, at least in california. They are just rednecks.
|
|
Tehboobz wants Ewa Sonnett
Don Corleone
Keeps his subtlety and knockers separated.
She's busty...she's Polish...and she will be mine!
Posts: 1,533
|
Post by Tehboobz wants Ewa Sonnett on Aug 13, 2006 17:11:55 GMT -5
It's definetly a complicated issue, that gets oversimplified by most people, IMO. The stars and stripes flew over slave states for close to 100 years longer then the stars and bars, does that mean we should redesign old glory? Also, to me, when people say the flag represents slavery, they are either misinformed, or have a rather glib interpretation of the cause of the civil war. Was slavery an issue? yes, but it was one of many, and not even the largest one. Also, I guess I'm of the impression that most people who fly the flag, whether in their yard, or at a capitol building, are not advocating a return to slavery. I agree with you....and I actually have a poster of it on my wall.
|
|
|
Post by amsiraK on Aug 13, 2006 18:13:18 GMT -5
It's definetly a complicated issue, that gets oversimplified by most people, IMO. The stars and stripes flew over slave states for close to 100 years longer then the stars and bars, does that mean we should redesign old glory? Also, to me, when people say the flag represents slavery, they are either misinformed, or have a rather glib interpretation of the cause of the civil war. Was slavery an issue? yes, but it was one of many, and not even the largest one. Also, I guess I'm of the impression that most people who fly the flag, whether in their yard, or at a capitol building, are not advocating a return to slavery. I think it goes a little beyond just the "slavery" issue, as the KKK has used it as "their" symbol for a very long time as well. I understand why people get upset, but that's not the only use for the stars and bars. And not the only reason it gets flown. Just because some beknighted dinks use it doesn't mean everyone who does is like them.
|
|
|
Post by chibidiablo on Aug 13, 2006 18:16:57 GMT -5
You all want to try living in England, our national flag (the st george's cross) is considered the most hateful and racist thing you can display here
|
|
|
Post by grapejellydoesit on Aug 13, 2006 19:16:01 GMT -5
Here's my take on this issue. In no way was the original intention of the stars and bars towards that of slavery. That's something that ignorant, uneducated people brought on and labeled the symbol. The stars and bars was a sign of solidarity of the south with the intentional belief on personal thought and freedom. Granted the slaves weren't allowed that, but keep in mind, slavery was still going strong in the north as well. In fact, the slaves weren't always black. It is indeed a travesty that a few groups of people (white and black) could use this historic flag to represent all that is considered racist and therefore evil.
|
|
|
Post by chibidiablo on Aug 13, 2006 19:21:53 GMT -5
Also i always thought the stars were a bit show-offy
|
|
|
Post by Mattification on Aug 13, 2006 19:22:26 GMT -5
Slightly useless in this very interesting thread, but myself and 3 guys hired a Chevy motorhome (or the RV as we called it) and headed down the south of England.
Anyway the RV had a confederate flag sticker on the back of it and I thought it was the coolest thing ever.
Carry on.
|
|
nisi
Vegeta
Da Bears
Posts: 9,868
|
Post by nisi on Aug 13, 2006 21:43:27 GMT -5
Slightly useless in this very interesting thread, but myself and 3 guys hired a Chevy motorhome (or the RV as we called it) and headed down the south of England. Anyway the RV had a confederate flag sticker on the back of it and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. Carry on. Queen Victoria did more or less side with the South during the Civil War, it figures! ;D
|
|
EvilMasterBetty, Esq.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bird...Birdie...birdie......Tiger...Tiger Tiger.....
R2C2 Reporting for duty
Posts: 17,355
|
Post by EvilMasterBetty, Esq. on Aug 13, 2006 22:05:42 GMT -5
While certainly the meaning is debatable, I don't think that people should be pressured into not flying or displaying the Confederate flag by people who think it's wrong. If you start down that road, what's to stop someone from saying that the Irish flag shouldn't be flown since they are offended by Irish, or that the Israeli flag shouldn't be flown for what it represents, or that the rainbow flag shouldn't be flown.
Flag's are powerful symbols. They're supposed to illicit a powerful response one way or another. To try to limit that in any way (which is what this debate usually tries to do) is wrong. For one person, the confederate flag sybolizes states rights and individual liberty and the southern heritage. For another it symbolizes bigotry and racism at it's worst. But who's to say why that person chooses to desplay the flag? Maybe their family has deep roots in the south. Maybe they are a bigoted racist. Hell, maybe they just like the design or were fans of the Dukes of Hazard. But to tell someone that they are a hate mongering bigot for showing the stars & bars is probably more ignorant than the actual person showing it.
I don't mean to take it off topic here or to offend anyone, but I'm going to use the rainbow flag as a counter example. In case some people don't know, the rainbow flag is a proud symbol of homosexuality. That's is a topic that elicits strong responses from most people, but in the opposite way from the Confederate flag. But who's to say that a right-wing Christian's disgust is any less important than a black person's disgust with the Confederate flag? Just because we find it un-PC to think negatively about homosexuals (I do NOT think it is right to think that way, BTW, but just making a point) but it's perfectly fine to think negatively on another subculture. I just think that people should be allowed to think how they want to think so as long as any desplays of that do not get in the way of a civil society, and a flag on the back of a pickup should not get in the way of anything.
If you do find it offensive, instead of going to the higher authority (Police, city council, school board etc) and complaining and sounding like an elitist, just politely talk with the person who is desplaying it and explain your view, and maybe you can have a polite discussion. Or maybe they are ignorant, but at least they are the ones who look bad and not you.
Or the simpler answer is just look away.
|
|