Greer
Unicron
Points. Don't. Matter.
Posts: 3,199
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Post by Greer on Aug 14, 2015 9:21:18 GMT -5
Never give wrestlers creative control. Nothing good can come from it.
Just reading that excerpt, you can tell Bischoff regrets that decision.
That finish was one of the biggest blunders in that company's history and they've had a lot. I put this ahead of the finger poke (which I personally had no problem with), Robocop, Chamber of Horrors, Monster truck Sumo and all of the other nonsense they churned out in the early-mid 90's and later in the year of 2000.
This was their biggest angle ever, on their biggest show ever, with their biggest buyrate ever, bringing in Bret Hart fresh off of the screwjob, and culminating with the biggest main event of that year.
Everything was lined up in their favor and they blew it.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,660
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Post by thecrusherwi on Aug 14, 2015 9:41:39 GMT -5
I liked it. I was 10 and had seen a ton of screwy finishes. Sting left the ring with the title, so I was happy.
Looking back now, it obviously was a mistake, although Sting does save some face at SuperBrawl by kicking out of the leg drop and pretty much dominating Hogan.
And I'm sure Hogan's reluctance to do business went beyond Sting being out of shape, but in his defense, Sting WAS out of shape. Look at Sting at any other time in his career and look at him at Starrcade. The dude is at least 30 pounds heavier and really doughy looking. If I had spent 18 months getting over an angle and making it the biggest thing in ten years and the guy who's gonna get the rub from it shows up out of shape, I'd be pissed too honestly.
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domrep
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,461
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Post by domrep on Aug 14, 2015 10:14:43 GMT -5
The sad thing is WCW had a 2nd chance w/Goldberg and did a shitty finish the year after. But here's my question...say Sting did go over clean and won the belt. Then what? What would be the angle/storyline that would carry WCW for the next couple of years? I see these angle things in waves...you had the NWO storyline dominating for almost 2 years. In WWE, you had Austin Bret dominating the 2nd half of 96 through the summer of 97, then you had Taker vs. DX, then it transitioned into Austin vs. McMahon for about a year and a half. For WCW, all things being equal...what would be the hot angle for them? Just seemed like they built everything into this Sting/Hogan match and I suppose they would have started over?
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Aug 14, 2015 10:35:33 GMT -5
The sad thing is WCW had a 2nd chance w/Goldberg and did a shitty finish the year after. But here's my question...say Sting did go over clean and won the belt. Then what? What would be the angle/storyline that would carry WCW for the next couple of years? I see these angle things in waves...you had the NWO storyline dominating for almost 2 years. In WWE, you had Austin Bret dominating the 2nd half of 96 through the summer of 97, then you had Taker vs. DX, then it transitioned into Austin vs. McMahon for about a year and a half. For WCW, all things being equal...what would be the hot angle for them? Just seemed like they built everything into this Sting/Hogan match and I suppose they would have started over? Hogan goes on hiatus for several months. Outside of a week he had basically been champion for 18 months time away wouldn't kill them. Sting runs programs with other nWo guys... You start focusing on Sparta of the nWo breaking apart and you eventually break apart nWo through the rest of the year. (Not by forming multiple naps but eventually phasing the whole thing out)
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Aug 14, 2015 10:49:53 GMT -5
The thing with Sting being out of shape is just an excuse, he could have been in the best shape of his life and there would be some other retroactive justification for it. 'Well brother, I just lost the title to Luger because he had a title run in his contract, so losing cleanly to Sting would have damaged the title and killed the NWO, making it harder for me to turn the Outsiders face.'
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Post by cabbageboy on Aug 14, 2015 11:12:58 GMT -5
I was thinking the same thing. Hogan was looking for some reason to get out of jobbing clean there. The weirder aspect was Hogan jobbing to Piper at HH 1997. Explain that booking if you're building a heel champ for Starrcade.
The main event of Starrcade 1997 is one that always looked bad on paper to me even at the time. You have Sting, a guy who has been sulking in the rafters for a year and hasn't wrestled or stayed in shape, vs. Hollywood Hogan. Hogan never had a decent match with that gimmick. In fact that WAS the gimmick, that he sucked and never fought worth a crap and needed run ins. Let's say Sting squashed Hogan in 3 minutes. Isn't that an awfully big letdown for the biggest main event in company history?
They could have gotten another good buyrate out of the rematch at SB 1998. Sting's problem then was that his heat was all aura and no wrestling. Once you put him in the ring again it was like "Oh, it's Sting...except he's not any good anymore." But after that? I dunno. I'd probably have Hogan regain the title in some screwy fashion and set up Goldberg as the new top guy coming for the title, blow it off at Starrcade. I might even do the NWO split storyline, with them reuniting due to Goldberg stomping them all. The problem in the end that the Fingerpoke had was that there was no real payoff to anything. Coming out of it there were tantalizing prospects of Goldberg going against a united NWO and having to go through these guys to get to Hogan. I have NO idea what they were doing in 1999 though, or why Flair got the title at all, or why Hogan turned semi face and Flair turned heel. The whole point of a double turn made no sense considering the long term idea needed to be Goldberg stomping these guys to get to heel Hogan (and he beat Nash at Spring Stampede...after the double turn at Uncensored with Hogan/Flair!). WCW's booking really went to crap in early 1999 and by mid 1999 they were doing the worst shows ever conceived by man.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 11:28:17 GMT -5
Even as a 14 year old mark I was shocked how they could mess this up so bad. Bret and Sting looked like freaking idiots My cousin and I tried so hard to justify to ourselves and each other that it was cool. Like "the count was a little bit fast, it wasn't like a championship match count...right!?". Earl Hebner always had this way of making the last count of a PPV title match really slow and dramatic, while Nick's was pretty nonchalant. But deep down we both knew it was bullshit.
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Post by somsta on Aug 14, 2015 12:14:48 GMT -5
If Patrick had actually done the fast count at least it would have made sense. But even then it was stupid. It's what I call a TNA finish - sometimes you don't need gimmicks and bells and whistles - just give us a clean finish.
I agree that this was worse than the fingerpoke of doom. I hate the fingerpoke more, but at least I can understand what the goal was, however stupid it was. I'll never understand how anyone thought the Starrcade finish was a good idea.
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Post by 2 time pro bowler Fred Dryer on Aug 14, 2015 19:57:59 GMT -5
The ending looks even worse when you remember that Hogan dominated about 75-80% of the match, including the last 7 or 8 minutes before the "fast count." I also thought it was awkward that Bret was at ringside to prevent the bell from being rung. Was he standing there the whole match? And why didn't any of the announcers mention it?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 20:04:01 GMT -5
Hogan Enters. Sting Enters. Stardown. Hogan immediately cheats. Hits him with belt. Tries leg drop. Sting moves. Sting comeback. Stinger Splash. Scorpion Death Drop. Over.
How hard is that WCW. This match last 5 minutes. Sting completely destroys Hogan. ENDS the nWo. Period.
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Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
TAFKA roidzilla and SUFFERIN' SUCCOTASH SON!
Posts: 8,784
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Aug 15, 2015 2:43:11 GMT -5
The thing with Sting being out of shape is just an excuse, he could have been in the best shape of his life and there would be some other retroactive justification for it. 'Well brother, I just lost the title to Luger because he had a title run in his contract, so losing cleanly to Sting would have damaged the title and killed the NWO, making it harder for me to turn the Outsiders face.' Absolutely One of the many reasons Hogan was directly responsible for some of the biggest mistakes in WCW history. Dude was beyond overprotective of his spot and used every BS reason on this planet to make himself look good. Destroying WCW's future (with help from Nash, Hall, Bischoff, Russo, Sullivan...) was a much bigger deal than his stupid racist comments
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 7:19:21 GMT -5
My first reaction was "Who's dumb idea was that!?"
Now days I call it Hulk Hogan BS
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Post by doinkmark on Aug 15, 2015 14:08:28 GMT -5
One of the Apter mags once either reported a different scenario that had been pitched, or fantasy booked their own version, I can't remember which. Anyway I think even that would've been better than what we got. In their version, Jeff Farmer NWO Sting comes out at the start of the match. Nick Patrick treats it legit and counts the pin, but then Roddy Piper (Bret would've worked here too, I guess) comes out with the REAL Sting, who it is revealed had been attacked and tied up in the back by the NWO. Then, the real match begins, and Hogan still has his "But I pinned Sting!" gripe to setup the rematch.
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tms
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,901
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Post by tms on Aug 15, 2015 16:27:36 GMT -5
Hogan in WCW with his creative control and a star-struck Bischoff kissing his butt was the worst thing ever. Only Reign of Terror Haitch and Superdiva Michaels come close.
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Post by somsta on Aug 15, 2015 17:57:54 GMT -5
One of the Apter mags once either reported a different scenario that had been pitched, or fantasy booked their own version, I can't remember which. Anyway I think even that would've been better than what we got. In their version, Jeff Farmer NWO Sting comes out at the start of the match. Nick Patrick treats it legit and counts the pin, but then Roddy Piper (Bret would've worked here too, I guess) comes out with the REAL Sting, who it is revealed had been attacked and tied up in the back by the NWO. Then, the real match begins, and Hogan still has his "But I pinned Sting!" gripe to setup the rematch. So Halloween Havoc 1990 all over again? I guess it fits in the seven year rule and would have been better than what we got.
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Post by MrElijah on Aug 15, 2015 20:33:54 GMT -5
Hogan in WCW with his creative control and a star-struck Bischoff kissing his butt was the worst thing ever. Only Reign of Terror Haitch and Superdiva Michaels come close. God could you imagine 90s HBK in WCW with Hogan?
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Aug 15, 2015 20:52:06 GMT -5
I think I remember reading in Bischoff's book when he spoke about this that the plan was for Sting to destroy Hogan, but that Hogan had seen that Sting was looking a bit out of shape sometime leading up to the show or even the day of the show or something like that and didn't want to play ball because of it. I hope i'm remembering that right. I definitely remember Bischoff saying Hogan was worried about Sting looking out of shape. I doubt it, because they went to the trouble of using Bret Hart as a referee earlier in the show, setting up what would be the first of many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, MANY angles to revisit the Montreal Screwjob. And of course, I'm sure Hogan had absolutely nothing to do with Nick Patrick's fast count not exactly being very fast. That finish would have worked if Patrick had actually made the fast count.
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Post by thegame415 on Aug 15, 2015 23:24:22 GMT -5
The sad thing is WCW had a 2nd chance w/Goldberg and did a shitty finish the year after. But here's my question...say Sting did go over clean and won the belt. Then what? What would be the angle/storyline that would carry WCW for the next couple of years? I see these angle things in waves...you had the NWO storyline dominating for almost 2 years. In WWE, you had Austin Bret dominating the 2nd half of 96 through the summer of 97, then you had Taker vs. DX, then it transitioned into Austin vs. McMahon for about a year and a half. For WCW, all things being equal...what would be the hot angle for them? Just seemed like they built everything into this Sting/Hogan match and I suppose they would have started over? I think Hogan blames his loss on the rest of the nWo, leading to the split and a legit Nash vs Hogan feud. Sting gets involved in the midst of a feud between the Horsemen, Flock and Hart Foundation. Fantasy booking, I had Nash costing Hogan matches at SuperBrawl and Uncensored against Sting (again, pure fantasy, as there's no way Hogan puts Sting over at three shows). This is after Hogan screws Hall at Souled Out. Spring Stampede is headlined by Hogan and Steiner vs Outsiders vs Luger and Giant (Giant rejoins nWo), plus Sting vs Flair for the title. Slamboree is Hogan and Giant vs the Outsiders and Sting vs Raven GAB has Hogan vs Nash and Sting vs DDP Bash at the Beach is Sting vs Hart (Hart wins) and Hogan/Rodman vs Nash/Malone Road Wild has Hogan/Bischoff vs Nash/Leno and Sting vs Hart vs Raven Fall Brawl is Sting vs Hart and Wargames with both sided of the nWo for the rights to the nWo name (white and black wins after Hall turns on Nash) Hogan beats Sting for the title at Halloween Havoc Undefeated Goldberg wins World War 3 Starrcade is headlined by: Goldberg vs Hogan Nash vs Hall Sting or DDP vs Hart
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Aug 16, 2015 22:54:13 GMT -5
The basic problem besides is this; WCW built up an angle for almost 2 years, and instead of having a proper payoff, found it more important to stroke the egos of Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff by having a screwy finish(Hogan) and by invoking the Montreal screwjob in the angle(Bischoff). This match should have been planned out a year in advance, and instead they let something that happened in their competitions company seep into the match.
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Post by Ryushinku on Aug 17, 2015 5:12:11 GMT -5
I read Bischoff's book years ago and I've always said the same thing. Given the build, given the hype, I don't care if Sting shows up 400 pounds and missing a leg. You put that sumbitch over and you put him over clean. And hey, let's just remind ourselves of what that that milk bottle white, noodle armed, wobble gutted Sting looked like at Starrcade '97. I mean sure, he's paler than Hogan, but...
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