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Post by basicdugganomix on Aug 26, 2015 11:28:58 GMT -5
Nobody feels gipped when a fight goes 37 seconds in ufc
In fact we get more hyped for that fighter
Wrestling fans have this whole thing about quality=quantity
The longer the match, the better. No. The better the match the better.
Could you imagine tacking on 10 more minutes to Guerrero/Mysterio? A 13 minute match.
Imagine if the iron man match was just those last 15 minutes.
The ufc fan mindset is if it goes 5 rounds it better be a back and forth brawl. Otherwise i want finishes, in fact i want first round finishes.
I got more from 37 seconds of rousey/correa than i did in 40 minutes of mayweather/pacquiao
People want highlight reels not a long, drawn out, one sided fight
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cjh
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Post by cjh on Aug 26, 2015 11:38:55 GMT -5
Nobody's taste in a form of entertainment needs to be "fixed". If a female fan just watches for the Divas and changes the channel to something else when their segment is over, that's perfectly fine. The current debate is that the form needs to be altered to not resemble the thing that caused a demographic to not care in the first place. You're confining a comment to "all women's segments are not not liked and have a right not to be liked no matter what form it entails." My point is that changing its representational form should not subside just because "that darn women's wrestling just ain't for me" currently is the reaction of the people that the "old people" from the poster I quoted is referring to. "My taste is that I hate women's wrestling and only like the men" has nothing to do with this. They hate women's wrestling is its current crappy form. Changing the form can potentially change an attitude. At the most basic level, I respectfully disagree with your blanket assessment of "you can't change people's tastes," which does conicide with my blind hatred without reason comment you quoted. I'm not saying people's tastes can't change. I'm saying someone's personal tastes, particularly what they watch for entertainment, are nobody else's business (unless the things that person enjoys puts others in danger), and it's arrogant as hell to try and "educate" somebody else on why they should or shouldn't find something entertaining/interesting/funny.
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neilc
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Post by neilc on Aug 26, 2015 14:13:08 GMT -5
Sounds a lot how they handle things on NXT... I think the problem is quite simple. Say a show is 3 hours with no breaks. Male wrestlers will probably take up 2 and a half hours of that at least. Multiple male wrestlers in different storylines, matches etc. Even male wrestlers lower down on the card get a shot to show their worth in a show as most of the matches are male wrestlers. The problem with the women's wrestling is they will normally get one segment/match per show, but there are a lot of women on the roster. Your average match has two people in it. So they can only have the two top women on the show, say feuding for the belt, or at least the two women in the most interesting women's storyline. How do you showcase the other women when you only have one divas match with two women in it on one show? So say Paige feuds with Sasha. Most of the other woman will be pushed to the background. I think thats why they have basically every woman show up in every divas segment, so they all get seen, but the problem is there's too many women clogging up each match or segment when the focus should be one just two,... or there is not enough womens segments spread out on a show, depending on how you look at it. For me personally, I don't watch much womens wrestling, and don't really feel strongly one way or the other, but I was blown over by Sasha vs Bayley the other day so that showed me how good they can be. I think that gets to another issue WWE has, and that is that they seem to think that they need to cram in all of the "name" people in the company in every show, and in particular that they need to be in matches on every show. It seems that they think that, for most of the roster, a simple two-minute backstage promo is not enough for the night, much less being left off the show entirely. Then that feeds into the issues that they tend to have in booking feuds, because they don't let the feuds breathe - it's just, "Oh God! We need Sheamus and Orton both wrestling tonight! Let's just have them face each other!" As it is, they try this "Throw everyone in there," which doesn't let anyone have defined characters and no reason for the fans to attach to that person. So, they end up having these stupid multi-team clusterf***s that help nobody. WWE instead should take it slow. Say they have three segments per show for the women. One week, they can have a 3-5 minute match highlighting Sasha Banks (say, beating Cameron), then a backstage interview with Charlotte, and then a tag team match spotlighting the Bellas. The next week can have matches spotlighting Becky Lynch and Alicia Fox, and a backstage angle where the Bellas attack Paige, and so on. They don't need to get every woman on every show - it only hurts the talent.
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Post by idislikeeverything on Aug 26, 2015 14:48:51 GMT -5
There is a serious fundamental difference between Ronda Rousey and the WWE divas. The biggest is that Rousey actually does legit fights and wins them. And while she's dominating right now, I can see the day when it gets old and no one cares since after a few more of these 30 second tap outs people will stop laying down 60 bucks (or however much). Also, WWE is different than NXT or UFC in this regard. UFC doesn't feature everyone on the PPVs, so one month can be a Rousey fight and then the next can be a man's fight or whatever. NXT doesn't have some massively loaded roster so they can give Bayley/Sasha 19 minutes on a special. But the main WWE roster? There's too many guys fighting for screen time as it is. When you have a World title, tag titles, IC, US, and whatever other midcard feuds going on it's trickier. And really the elephant in the room is that a lot of casual fans simply don't care about women's wrestling and never will. I've talked to older fans who simply could care less about women's wrestling regardless of its quality. It's always going to be problematic since WWE has spent the past 25 years telling everyone not to care. I'll give Bayley vs. Sasha props, but at the end of the day I still find the WWE divas segments FF material and wish this junk wasn't on the show. The whole separate divas show might have some merit. Those who want to watch it can go for it. 25 years from now, who will be the audience? It's gotta be fixed sometime. A lot of people in '64 said they didn't give a flip about any Civil Rights Act. But we didn't operate under the assumption that 25 years from now people still aren't going to care because the country had spent the previous 100+ "not caring about it." Just because old sexist perverts are a thing now in wrestling doesn't mean we can't condition the 20-40somethings for an adjustment over the next 25 years. I agree as I want a real, respected women's scene in WWE but people have to like it naturally. Any talk of "conditioning" people instantly creeps me out. I'll like what I like, not what someone tries to brainwash me to like and I'd hope most people agree with that.
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SAJ Forth
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Post by SAJ Forth on Aug 26, 2015 14:49:40 GMT -5
Once it became a McMahon angle, it got bad. Once it became a Bella angle, fans tuned back to their DVR'ed Walking Dead. It both who it is as the main wrestler, and the aimless tag matches.
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Savage Gambino
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Post by Savage Gambino on Aug 26, 2015 14:58:39 GMT -5
I think the problem is quite simple. Say a show is 3 hours with no breaks. Male wrestlers will probably take up 2 and a half hours of that at least. Multiple male wrestlers in different storylines, matches etc. Even male wrestlers lower down on the card get a shot to show their worth in a show as most of the matches are male wrestlers. The problem with the women's wrestling is they will normally get one segment/match per show, but there are a lot of women on the roster. Your average match has two people in it. So they can only have the two top women on the show, say feuding for the belt, or at least the two women in the most interesting women's storyline. In this case two women. How do you showcase the other women when you only have one divas match with two women in it on one show? So say Paige feuds with Sasha. Most of the other woman will be pushed to the background. I think thats why they have basically every woman show up in every divas segment, so they all get seen, but the problem is there's too many women/or not enough womens segments on a show, depending on how you look at it. For me personally, I don't watch much womens wrestling, and don't really feel strongly one way or the other, but I was blown over by Sasha vs Bayley the other day so that showed me how good they can be. Ever since the "Divas Revolution" started, the women have been getting two segments on RAW. Actually, the women started getting two segments a night after Total Divas. Say what you will about the match quality, but Total Divas played a pretty big role in the Divas getting more air time. Bigger than we give it credit for, tbh.
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cjh
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Post by cjh on Aug 26, 2015 15:10:50 GMT -5
Ever since the "Divas Revolution" started, the women have been getting two segments on RAW. Actually, the women started getting two segments a night after Total Divas. Say what you will about the match quality, but Total Divas played a pretty big role in the Divas getting more air time. Bigger than we give it credit for, tbh. Not so much when the show wasn't airing. Eariler this year, they started having matches that would last through a commercial (after people had a fit over the match where the Bellas beat Paige and Emma in 30 seconds), but even that was inconsistent.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 26, 2015 16:48:32 GMT -5
25 years from now, who will be the audience? It's gotta be fixed sometime. A lot of people in '64 said they didn't give a flip about any Civil Rights Act. But we didn't operate under the assumption that 25 years from now people still aren't going to care because the country had spent the previous 100+ "not caring about it." Just because old sexist perverts are a thing now in wrestling doesn't mean we can't condition the 20-40somethings for an adjustment over the next 25 years. I agree as I want a real, respected women's scene in WWE but people have to like it naturally. Any talk of "conditioning" people instantly creeps me out. I'll like what I like, not what someone tries to brainwash me to like and I'd hope most people agree with that. "Conditioning" may be a creepy word, but it's honestly what almost every televised program on Earth does with its audience - we're trained to expect certain things, trained to anticipate things being filmed a certain way, trained to accept or reject certain premises based on the tone, plot, setting, atmosphere, dialog, and direction used in whatever it is we're watching. In this case, yeah, it's been decades since WWE, the major player in mainstream pro wrestling since 1984, has attempted to take women's wrestling seriously. That's audience conditioning ("womens' match = head for the bathrooms"). Attempting to do the opposite is also audience conditioning, albeit to a smaller degree. The core of it still has to be "people actively enjoy watching the women wrestle", but it'll help when the writers, the agents, the wrestlers themselves, Kevin Dunn and his production truck, Vince, and the announce team all pull together to train the audience to think "womens' match = just as worthwhile as the mens'".
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Aug 26, 2015 18:59:16 GMT -5
This is the first RAW 1h30m edit for Hulu that hasn't included a divas segment in longer than I can remember paying attention.
They chose that segment to edit out entirely, it goes straight from the Wyatt Family new guy debut to Jon Stewart coming out.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Aug 26, 2015 20:04:40 GMT -5
This is the first RAW 1h30m edit for Hulu that hasn't included a divas segment in longer than I can remember paying attention. They chose that segment to edit out entirely, it goes straight from the Wyatt Family new guy debut to Jon Stewart coming out. The edited it for the West Coast feed from what I read and added 1 or 2 commercials once the crowd started with their stuff. I cannot blame them though.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 26, 2015 20:06:42 GMT -5
This is the first RAW 1h30m edit for Hulu that hasn't included a divas segment in longer than I can remember paying attention. They chose that segment to edit out entirely, it goes straight from the Wyatt Family new guy debut to Jon Stewart coming out. The edited it for the West Coast feed from what I read and added 1 or 2 commercials once the crowd started with their stuff. I cannot blame them though. I can blame them for putting on that dog shit segment and match in the first place. Too bad those of us live didn't have the luxury of it being edited out before they went on the air.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Aug 26, 2015 20:08:24 GMT -5
The edited it for the West Coast feed from what I read and added 1 or 2 commercials once the crowd started with their stuff. I cannot blame them though. I can blame them for putting on that dog shit segment and match in the first place. Too bad those of us live didn't have the luxury of it being edited out before they went on the air. I will never agree to that and will leave it at that.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Aug 26, 2015 20:14:45 GMT -5
This is the first RAW 1h30m edit for Hulu that hasn't included a divas segment in longer than I can remember paying attention. They chose that segment to edit out entirely, it goes straight from the Wyatt Family new guy debut to Jon Stewart coming out. The edited it for the West Coast feed from what I read and added 1 or 2 commercials once the crowd started with their stuff. I cannot blame them though. It shows WWE isn't happy about this at the least. Question is open on if backstage blames the crowd for it or if they think they're producing dookie, and if they do think what's getting put out is the cause of the reaction, who are they blaming? Talent, writing, the angle itself, if they think it's a response just because they're women... I'd kill to be a fly on the wall for those discussion they undoubtedly had.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 20:17:16 GMT -5
Here's my take:
In NXT it happened naturally due to talent.
In WWE it's been shoved everywhere.
I think it's that simple.
And as Cornfed mentioned, I think it's a cash grab.
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Professor Chaos
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Post by Professor Chaos on Aug 26, 2015 20:45:18 GMT -5
The edited it for the West Coast feed from what I read and added 1 or 2 commercials once the crowd started with their stuff. I cannot blame them though. It shows WWE isn't happy about this at the least. Question is open on if backstage blames the crowd for it or if they think they're producing dookie, and if they do think what's getting put out is the cause of the reaction, who are they blaming? Talent, writing, the angle itself, if they think it's a response just because they're women... I'd kill to be a fly on the wall for those discussion they undoubtedly had. Vince: Damnit why can't we make these millenials happy with the divas? Get me the one they all voted to win Tough Enough. As soon as the Bella with the boobs breaks the record to spite that son of a bitch Phil we debut her on RAW to win the title. That'll make em happy. That is why I am king of sports entertainment.
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Jeff Mangum PI
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Post by Jeff Mangum PI on Aug 26, 2015 20:49:12 GMT -5
Much like the Roman Reigns backlash, WWE seems to just assume that we'll just gobble up anything if they shove it down our throats hard enough.
The thing is, NXT never had to do any of that.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Aug 26, 2015 21:55:48 GMT -5
You say you want a revolution Well, you know We all want to change the world You tell me that it's evolution Well, you know We all want to change the world But when you talk about destruction Don't you know that you can count me out Don't you know it's gonna be all right? All right, all right You say you got a real solution Well, you know We'd all love to see the plan You ask me for a contribution Well, you know We're all doing what we can But if you want money For people with minds that hate All I can tell is brother you have to wait Don't you know it's gonna be all right? All right, all right You say you'll change the constitution Well, you know We all want to change your head You tell me it's the institution Well, you know You better free you mind instead
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Post by Widow's Peak on Aug 26, 2015 22:29:38 GMT -5
I think we can call it the Roman Reigns effect: When something or someone is allowed to get over on their own, the fans accept it. The instant WWE gives it a marketing catchphrase and pushes it as a commodity, the fans reject it.
And I'll echo what some are saying about match length. You can give them 7 minutes a week that are entertaining and it will do a lot more good than two rather dull 10min segment. Even a quick match is a good choice if it tells a good story and is not seen as a throwaway.
Previous to the rise of the NXT women, the gold standard for many as for as WWE Diva's matches went was that classic Trish and Lita match that main evented Raw in 2004. The total run time for that was less than 10 minutes.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 26, 2015 22:31:30 GMT -5
The edited it for the West Coast feed from what I read and added 1 or 2 commercials once the crowd started with their stuff. I cannot blame them though. It shows WWE isn't happy about this at the least. Question is open on if backstage blames the crowd for it or if they think they're producing dookie, and if they do think what's getting put out is the cause of the reaction, who are they blaming? Talent, writing, the angle itself, if they think it's a response just because they're women... I'd kill to be a fly on the wall for those discussion they undoubtedly had. Clearly these new talent are dragging the Improving Bellas down.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 22:42:49 GMT -5
So what happens now I wonder? Do they brush Monday off as an anomaly, wrong crowd on the wrong night kind of thing? Or do they actually hunker down and examine what's wrong with this whole thing? The MizTV thing where Miz had the audacity to suggest that Team PCB start thinking about the only title in the game, and their insistence that the Divas' division is a team sport is so bonkers to me. You only get one chance to make a first impression and what they did with the NXT girls was everything I've dreaded since day one of this supposed revolution. They all look like such dummies now.
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