Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Aug 26, 2015 23:12:33 GMT -5
The problem with women's wrestling in this country can be traced back to one woman: The Fabulous Moolah. To compensate for her lack of talent, she acquired power and made it that every women who made it used her bullshit "catfight" style. Her influence conditioned people to believe that women could not have technical matches but only "catfights". Her matches are some of the worst pieces of crap I have ever seen, yet they for many years were considered the gold standard in women's wrestling.
Worst part in all of this is that her influence reached people like Vince that controlled wrestling in the US. Instead of getting great wrestling we ended up with crap like "GLOW".
In the mid 90's Japan was putting on intense, bloody, emotional and technical matches with talent like Megumi Kudo, Bad Nurse Nakamura, Shark Tsuchiya and Combat Toyoda. These weren't just good women's matches, they were good matches period and the fans became invested.
At the same time in the US WWE signed a very talented Rhonda Sing and then turned her to a very embarrassing character in Bertha Faye. This continued into the attitude era where the women's "matches" were nothing more than excuses to show tna. Even when talented worked such as Molly, Lita, Victoria and Trish made the audience care by putting on great matches they still had storylines that told the audience women weren't important (Fat Ass Molly, Trish Barking, Lita's a slut).
NXT and Shimmer work because they put on great matches and the storylines are kept very simple and the women aren't degraded. The fans are won over because the matches are pretty damn good. (I'd argue the Bayley-Sasha is the MOTY)
In WWE they still have the Moolah mindset. Instead of the focus being on the women being very good at what they do they focus on them being crazy "catfighting" women even though that in-ring style died during the attitude era.
The Revolution is failing because WWE has no idea that Moolah's vision is, and always was, complete bullshit. The focus is more on the Bella's being bitches than the fact that their is more talent in that division than they have ever had.
When we watched the NXT/Shimmer matches I knew I was watching something different. No one had to tell us that we were watching something special, we could see it. The women were treated as big deals and their matches were excellent. It won the crowds over when we now expect NXT/Shimmer women's matches to be excellent.
The problem wasn't Stephanie calling it a revolution. We are used to things being over-hyped ("tonight is the biggest night in the history of our sport"). However when you hype up something as revolutionary but yet still present the same stripped down Moolah-inspired presentation people know they have been conned and will reject it.
Sadly, people were giving it a chance. After a while you realize what's happening and the people turn.
Until the higher ups at WWE lose the "Moolah" mindset nothing will change. The positives are that the roster is very talented and HHH appears to understand how to properly book them. It won't be easy to reverse a mindset that has been ingrained in the casual audience for years and it will change once WWE stops playing to that preconceived expectation.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Aug 26, 2015 23:42:36 GMT -5
It shows WWE isn't happy about this at the least. Question is open on if backstage blames the crowd for it or if they think they're producing dookie, and if they do think what's getting put out is the cause of the reaction, who are they blaming? Talent, writing, the angle itself, if they think it's a response just because they're women... I'd kill to be a fly on the wall for those discussion they undoubtedly had. Vince: Damnit why can't we make these millenials happy with the divas? Get me the one they all voted to win Tough Enough. As soon as the Bella with the boobs breaks the record to spite that son of a bitch Phil we debut her on RAW to win the title. That'll make em happy. That is why I am king of sports entertainment. If they actually put the strap on Smyle (that's "smile" with a "y") or Hope or whatever the hell she's calling herself before the NXT ladies, I wouldn't even be mad. I'd be too busy dying of laughter.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Aug 26, 2015 23:56:57 GMT -5
The problem with women's wrestling in this country can be traced back to one woman: The Fabulous Moolah. To compensate for her lack of talent, she acquired power and made it that every women who made it used her bullshit "catfight" style. Her influence conditioned people to believe that women could not have technical matches but only "catfights". Her matches are some of the worst pieces of crap I have ever seen, yet they for many years were considered the gold standard in women's wrestling. Worst part in all of this is that her influence reached people like Vince that controlled wrestling in the US. Instead of getting great wrestling we ended up with crap like "GLOW". In the mid 90's Japan was putting on intense, bloody, emotional and technical matches with talent like Megumi Kudo, Bad Nurse Nakamura, Shark Tsuchiya and Combat Toyoda. These weren't just good women's matches, they were good matches period and the fans became invested. At the same time in the US WWE signed a very talented Rhonda Sing and then turned her to a very embarrassing character in Bertha Faye. This continued into the attitude era where the women's "matches" were nothing more than excuses to show tna. Even when talented worked such as Molly, Lita, Victoria and Trish made the audience care by putting on great matches they still had storylines that told the audience women weren't important (Fat Ass Molly, Trish Barking, Lita's a slut). NXT and Shimmer work because they put on great matches and the storylines are kept very simple and the women aren't degraded. The fans are won over because the matches are pretty damn good. (I'd argue the Bayley-Sasha is the MOTY) In WWE they still have the Moolah mindset. Instead of the focus being on the women being very good at what they do they focus on them being crazy "catfighting" women even though that in-ring style died during the attitude era. The Revolution is failing because WWE has no idea that Moolah's vision is, and always was, complete bullshit. The focus is more on the Bella's being bitches than the fact that their is more talent in that division than they have ever had. When we watched the NXT/Shimmer matches I knew I was watching something different. No one had to tell us that we were watching something special, we could see it. The women were treated as big deals and their matches were excellent. It won the crowds over when we now expect NXT/Shimmer women's matches to be excellent. The problem wasn't Stephanie calling it a revolution. We are used to things being over-hyped ("tonight is the biggest night in the history of our sport"). However when you hype up something as revolutionary but yet still present the same stripped down Moolah-inspired presentation people know they have been conned and will reject it. Sadly, people were giving it a chance. After a while you realize what's happening and the people turn. Until the higher ups at WWE lose the "Moolah" mindset nothing will change. The positives are that the roster is very talented and HHH appears to understand how to properly book them. It won't be easy to reverse a mindset that has been ingrained in the casual audience for years and it will change once WWE stops playing to that preconceived expectation. Yeah this is a big point too. A lot of the current Divas were basically trained in the same style of Moolah matches, which were f***ing terrible for the most part. Catfighting and awkward pauses come from her style. And while there have been girls that have overcome that style to be pretty good hands (McCool, AJ, Trish, etc.) a lot of them are still in that same Moolah mindset. Maybe that's why it's so awkward for people like the Bellas to fight the NXT girls. They've been taught a way to wrestle that's completely foreign to them. Sasha and friends learned from Del Rey (and Paige from her mom), to wrestle like wrestler, not wrestle like "a girl". Cena and Bryan can teach their girls to copy their styles all they want, but at the end of the day they still have that broken foundation they started wrestling on and have been for so many years that's it's hard to change.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 27, 2015 0:01:50 GMT -5
The problem with women's wrestling in this country can be traced back to one woman: The Fabulous Moolah. To compensate for her lack of talent, she acquired power and made it that every women who made it used her bullshit "catfight" style. Her influence conditioned people to believe that women could not have technical matches but only "catfights". Her matches are some of the worst pieces of crap I have ever seen, yet they for many years were considered the gold standard in women's wrestling. Worst part in all of this is that her influence reached people like Vince that controlled wrestling in the US. Instead of getting great wrestling we ended up with crap like "GLOW". In the mid 90's Japan was putting on intense, bloody, emotional and technical matches with talent like Megumi Kudo, Bad Nurse Nakamura, Shark Tsuchiya and Combat Toyoda. These weren't just good women's matches, they were good matches period and the fans became invested. At the same time in the US WWE signed a very talented Rhonda Sing and then turned her to a very embarrassing character in Bertha Faye. This continued into the attitude era where the women's "matches" were nothing more than excuses to show tna. Even when talented worked such as Molly, Lita, Victoria and Trish made the audience care by putting on great matches they still had storylines that told the audience women weren't important (Fat Ass Molly, Trish Barking, Lita's a slut). NXT and Shimmer work because they put on great matches and the storylines are kept very simple and the women aren't degraded. The fans are won over because the matches are pretty damn good. (I'd argue the Bayley-Sasha is the MOTY) In WWE they still have the Moolah mindset. Instead of the focus being on the women being very good at what they do they focus on them being crazy "catfighting" women even though that in-ring style died during the attitude era. The Revolution is failing because WWE has no idea that Moolah's vision is, and always was, complete bullshit. The focus is more on the Bella's being bitches than the fact that their is more talent in that division than they have ever had. When we watched the NXT/Shimmer matches I knew I was watching something different. No one had to tell us that we were watching something special, we could see it. The women were treated as big deals and their matches were excellent. It won the crowds over when we now expect NXT/Shimmer women's matches to be excellent. The problem wasn't Stephanie calling it a revolution. We are used to things being over-hyped ("tonight is the biggest night in the history of our sport"). However when you hype up something as revolutionary but yet still present the same stripped down Moolah-inspired presentation people know they have been conned and will reject it. Sadly, people were giving it a chance. After a while you realize what's happening and the people turn. Until the higher ups at WWE lose the "Moolah" mindset nothing will change. The positives are that the roster is very talented and HHH appears to understand how to properly book them. It won't be easy to reverse a mindset that has been ingrained in the casual audience for years and it will change once WWE stops playing to that preconceived expectation. Yeah this is a big point too. A lot of the current Divas were basically trained in the same style of Moolah matches, which were f***ing terrible for the most part. Catfighting and awkward pauses come from her style. And while there have been girls that have overcome that style to be pretty good hands (McCool, AJ, Trish, etc.) a lot of them are still in that same Moolah mindset. Maybe that's why it's so awkward for people like the Bellas to fight the NXT girls. They've been taught a way to wrestle that's completely foreign to them. Sasha and friends learned from Del Rey (and Paige from her mom), to wrestle like wrestler, not wrestle like "a girl". Cena and Bryan can teach their girls to copy their styles all they want, but at the end of the day they still have that broken foundation they started wrestling on and have been for so many years that's it's hard to change. I've been wanting to make a post that defenses of what we've seen from the divas, specifically of the ever improving Bellas, feels like a defense of Moolah holding women's wrestling to a certain limited sideshow level. But I thought it wouldn't be prudent, nahgunndoit.
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
Posts: 6,506
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Aug 27, 2015 1:29:27 GMT -5
Yeah this is a big point too. A lot of the current Divas were basically trained in the same style of Moolah matches, which were f***ing terrible for the most part. Catfighting and awkward pauses come from her style. And while there have been girls that have overcome that style to be pretty good hands (McCool, AJ, Trish, etc.) a lot of them are still in that same Moolah mindset. Maybe that's why it's so awkward for people like the Bellas to fight the NXT girls. They've been taught a way to wrestle that's completely foreign to them. Sasha and friends learned from Del Rey (and Paige from her mom), to wrestle like wrestler, not wrestle like "a girl". Cena and Bryan can teach their girls to copy their styles all they want, but at the end of the day they still have that broken foundation they started wrestling on and have been for so many years that's it's hard to change. I've been wanting to make a post that defenses of what we've seen from the divas, specifically of the ever improving Bellas, feels like a defense of Moolah holding women's wrestling to a certain limited sideshow level. But I thought it wouldn't be prudent, nahgunndoit. In an interview Victoria (Lisa Marie Varon) said was that all of the women back then would show up to TV tapings and shows earlier to work with guys like Regal to try and get better. They listened to anyone who would give them advice and they slowly started to improve. I would love for them to bring Lisa Marie Varon back in come capacity. I do wonder if the current crop of non-NXT divas are taking the same approach or if they simply believe they don't need to put in that extra work. I also have to wonder if the taping/scheduling demands of Total Divas is preventing them from training as much as they should. (Daniel Bryan (I think) mentioned how it was tough to squeeze in reality tapings to an already busy schedule).
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the2ndevil
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Post by the2ndevil on Aug 27, 2015 1:41:21 GMT -5
Not really sure if this is the right thread for this, but do people think that choosing Alicia Fox to work with the ladies for the end of Tough Enough, was management's way of saying they trust Alicia and her ring skills enough to work with people who are new?
If anyone on the Divas roster fits the definition of a "Solid Hand", I think it's her.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Aug 27, 2015 1:43:26 GMT -5
Not really sure if this is the right thread for this, but do people think that choosing Alicia Fox to work with the ladies for the end of Tough Enough, was management's way of saying they trust Alicia and her ring skills enough to work with people who are new? If anyone on the Divas roster fits the definition of a "Solid Hand", I think it's her. She's the most tenured Diva on the roster with Layla now gone. It's certainly why they picked her to work with Sara and Amanda on Tough Enough.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 27, 2015 1:44:10 GMT -5
Not really sure if this is the right thread for this, but do people think that choosing Alicia Fox to work with the ladies for the end of Tough Enough, was management's way of saying they trust Alicia and her ring skills enough to work with people who are new? If anyone on the Divas roster fits the definition of a "Solid Hand", I think it's her. She was in one of the most legendary matches of all time, endorsed by her peer no less.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 27, 2015 1:52:34 GMT -5
Not really sure if this is the right thread for this, but do people think that choosing Alicia Fox to work with the ladies for the end of Tough Enough, was management's way of saying they trust Alicia and her ring skills enough to work with people who are new? If anyone on the Divas roster fits the definition of a "Solid Hand", I think it's her. She was in one of the most legendary matches of all time, endorsed by her peer no less. ...Where the f*** IS Cameron, anyway? She's been missing from TV for months.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 27, 2015 1:54:30 GMT -5
She was in one of the most legendary matches of all time, endorsed by her peer no less. ...Where the f*** IS Cameron, anyway? She's been missing from TV for months. Don`t know,don`t care,lack of Cameron is always welcome,but the Bellas should go join her.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 7:48:56 GMT -5
Given that Cameron hasn't been on WWE programming of any sort since April, not even Total Divas, I'm assuming she's on her way out. Not that you'll hear me complaining - the two most notable things she ever did were managing to botch a pin and attempting to bribe her way out of a DWI.
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Professor Chaos
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Post by Professor Chaos on Aug 27, 2015 7:57:05 GMT -5
Given that Cameron hasn't been on WWE programming of any sort since April, not even Total Divas, I'm assuming she's on her way out. Not that you'll hear me complaining - the two most notable things she ever did were managing to botch a pin and attempting to bribe her way out of a DWI. Us Total Divas fans want her back for her boyfriend Vinny. That dude is cooler than the other side of the pillow.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 27, 2015 8:10:00 GMT -5
Their priority is making Nikki Bella the record setting champion
That tells you all you need to know really.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 27, 2015 8:12:46 GMT -5
Is Divas Revolution the most ineffectual 'reboot' since Impact Wrestling?
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Professor Chaos
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Post by Professor Chaos on Aug 27, 2015 8:28:00 GMT -5
Their priority is making Nikki Bella the record setting champion That tells you all you need to know really. I like Nikki but on the brightside they whitewashed the women's title history where she'd be trotted out there in a walker with the title in 2040 to "You Can Look But You Can't Touch" vying to break Moolah's record.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Aug 27, 2015 8:49:10 GMT -5
Like DemonSmoke said, things aren't going to change so long as they insist on the mindset of what Moolah did fifty years ago during her monopoly on Women's Wrestling is the standard and should be followed exactly. Rolling around on top of one another, wiggling their asses while doing so, hair pulling, slapping, calling each other a bitch, as long as they still have that mindset things will stay the same no matter how many girls who are talented like The Four Horsewomen and potential signees like Kana are on the roster. If you've noticed, many of the NXT girls who were called up immediately had to change their attire so that it showed and exposed more flesh
TNA once had an actual legit Womens' Division but it too regressed and devolved into the above.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on Aug 27, 2015 10:12:45 GMT -5
And really the elephant in the room is that a lot of casual fans simply don't care about women's wrestling and never will. I've talked to older fans who simply could care less about women's wrestling regardless of its quality. It's always going to be problematic since WWE has spent the past 25 years telling everyone not to care. I'll give Bayley vs. Sasha props, but at the end of the day I still find the WWE divas segments FF material and wish this junk wasn't on the show. The whole separate divas show might have some merit. Those who want to watch it can go for it. I can't believe this 'casual fan' argument is still a thing. It needs to be put away. - We've had crowds declare awesomeness to anything that has the slightest whiff of being awesome. - We've had crowds sit through possibly ten of these boring, nothing matches with either decent or outright huge pops before finally tapping out this week. Even then, if they had done a segment without a match it would have gone over well. - We had, this past Saturday, a crowd of almost sixteen thousand roaring for Bayley and Sasha. - Oh, and that random ass Paige/Sasha match a few weeks ago? According to Sasha, it was the highest rated segment of RAW that night and caused Vince to shake her hand. Fans want to react. Fans want to be involved. Fans want to make a segment and add to a match for the most part. They don't need conditioning. They're already there. WWE can test the patience of even the most passionate fans though. If you don't like women's wrestling, cool. It's not the opinion of the majority.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 27, 2015 10:23:48 GMT -5
- We had, this past Saturday, a crowd of almost sixteen thousand roaring for Bayley and Sasha. and a majority of the same people were in the crowd on Monday.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on Aug 27, 2015 10:59:45 GMT -5
- We had, this past Saturday, a crowd of almost sixteen thousand roaring for Bayley and Sasha. and a majority of the same people were in the crowd on Monday. Pretty much. I believe most people who make up a WWE crowd will react to quality/relative quality of what they're seeing rather than the gender of the performers. The MizTV segment was working to a point. The huge 'WE WANT SASHA' chants and huge boos for Nikki when she was talking about her title reign are largely forgotten but the match got crapped for a very simple, unbiased reason: it was 90% resthold city and it went on too long.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 27, 2015 11:19:43 GMT -5
and a majority of the same people were in the crowd on Monday. Pretty much. I believe most people who make up a WWE crowd will react to quality/relative quality of what they're seeing rather than the gender of the performers. The MizTV segment was working to a point. The huge 'WE WANT SASHA' chants and huge boos for Nikki when she was talking about her title reign are largely forgotten but the match got crapped for a very simple, unbiased reason: it was 90% resthold city and it went on too long. Other reasons: - No one cares about the Divas Clown Car gang warz, I can't fathom the person that actually wants these 6-9 woman tags. - There were no stakes and have never been stakes since the revolution started.
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