Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 13:03:33 GMT -5
I mean, NXT is great, that's nearly unanimous, but how much of that would you contribute to its overall simplicity in its presentation?
I don't just mean in the production and story end, I mean in the in-ring as well.
Looking at the two main events from Brooklyn, we had two matches with very few "spots" that were carefully timed to maximize their overall impact. It was the simpler things that are the memorable ones, such as Sasha stomping the hand.
Even the ladder match was excellent, without having a whole lot of Hardy/Dudley/E&C spotfests in it. (The ladders were even fiberglass)
Is the talent being told to work safer, or is Triple H/Albert/et. al. trying to drag wrestling back to a simpler form based more on ring psychology?
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 19, 2015 13:33:48 GMT -5
It's a wrestling product. That's why it works. Keep it simple and straightforward. All the old tried and tested formulas are applied and it succeeds.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Sept 19, 2015 17:19:08 GMT -5
Also when you keep it relatively simple awesome things like Tyler Breeze's Supermodel Entrance and Sasha's Car and Bodyguards entrance just look that much more cool.
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greeby
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,088
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Post by greeby on Sept 19, 2015 17:29:55 GMT -5
One thing that helps is the gaps between Takeovers. The events of the previous special have time to absorb and there isn't this mad scramble to build to the next special event from minute one of the next edition of the regular TV show. Case in point, the main event of this next Takeover has just been announced, over three weeks after Brooklyn.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 19, 2015 17:34:57 GMT -5
The only thing NXT is missing is a selection of dedicated old style jobbers.
I used to love watching Big Bossman kill guys like Black Bart or some other jabroni in a quick squash.
When the replay of the Bossman slam was shown, they'd always play some funny sax music. It was hilarious.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,879
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Post by Dub H on Sept 19, 2015 20:38:21 GMT -5
The only thing NXT is missing is a selection of dedicated old style jobbers. I used to love watching Big Bossman kill guys like Black Bart or some other jabroni in a quick squash. When the replay of the Bossman slam was shown, they'd always play some funny sax music. It was hilarious. They had CJ Parker and now they have Solomon Crowe |
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 19, 2015 20:48:58 GMT -5
They need more than that. They need a whole array of professional jabronis. Like they had in the 1980's. Could have a mix of indie wrestlers looking for a few bucks, and some veterans who can still go, who are willing to do jobs.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 19, 2015 21:01:08 GMT -5
It's a well known fact that Stephanie triggered the NXT Revolution after she was inspired by the recemt success of other sporting organisations, such as the NFL, the Premier League, and the Association of Tennis Professionals.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 19, 2015 21:45:41 GMT -5
They need more than that. They need a whole array of professional jabronis. Like they had in the 1980's. Could have a mix of indie wrestlers looking for a few bucks, and some veterans who can still go, who are willing to do jobs. And they have the NXT dregs who do jobs to pay their dues until they're ready for a gimmick and a push. Which is the way it should be, even on the main roster. Unless you're a "name" talent from the indies/Japan/Mexico, you should be working your way up from the bottom. |
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Post by Starshine on Sept 19, 2015 22:28:48 GMT -5
It's amazing how satisfying a wrestling product can be when more often than not guys win matches based on their own merits and abilities instead of a bunch of run ins or bullshit endings.
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Post by Clawley Race on Sept 20, 2015 1:11:53 GMT -5
One thing that helps is the gaps between Takeovers. The events of the previous special have time to absorb and there isn't this mad scramble to build to the next special event from minute one of the next edition of the regular TV show. Case in point, the main event of this next Takeover has just been announced, over three weeks after Brooklyn. The time gap makes everything better. It has an old school feel, makes cards seem bigger, and makes them more memorable as a result. Arrival: Neville is the king. TakeOver: Sami can't quite do it pt 1. Fatal 4-Way: Title says it all. Sami cant quite do it pt 2. R Evolution: Sami finally wins the big one. Owens vs Sami begins Rival: A new king is crowned. Unstoppable: Owens is unstoppable. Brooklyn: NXT belongs to Bayley and Balor. You can remember the things that happen as they are all important to the long term story telling. If you ask me what happened at most WWE PPVs (not Mania) in the last 15 years, I have no clue. |
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Burst
El Dandy
*inarticulate squawking*
Posts: 8,599
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Post by Burst on Sept 20, 2015 1:41:57 GMT -5
They need more than that. They need a whole array of professional jabronis. Like they had in the 1980's. Could have a mix of indie wrestlers looking for a few bucks, and some veterans who can still go, who are willing to do jobs. And they have the NXT dregs who do jobs to pay their dues until they're ready for a gimmick and a push. Which is the way it should be, even on the main roster. Unless you're a "name" talent from the indies/Japan/Mexico, you should be working your way up from the bottom. What I'd wish they'd do is more "easy gimmick" jobber tag teams like State Patrol or any one-sentence-description sort of thing. They're cops, they're letterman jocks, that sort of thing. It's such a simple way to make a jobber team more interesting than just sending out two completely generic guys. |
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Post by Big Bad Kahuna on Sept 20, 2015 5:57:22 GMT -5
They need more than that. They need a whole array of professional jabronis. Like they had in the 1980's. Could have a mix of indie wrestlers looking for a few bucks, and some veterans who can still go, who are willing to do jobs. They pretty obviously have those!? Martin Stone (Danny Burch) Alexander Wolfe (Axel Tischer) Aaron Solo Jesse Sorensen Blue Pants Billie Kay Peyton Royce Sawyer Fulton Angelo Dawkins Rhyno is arguably just there to put the youngins over Etc |
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Post by Big Bad Kahuna on Sept 20, 2015 6:02:41 GMT -5
NXT is in my eyes the perfect mixture of 1989/1992-94 WCW and 1994-1997 ECW where brillant guys like Heyman, Watts, Dusty and Flair (of course they did have some flaws) had plenty of good ideas and good use of their talent roster
They also have the advantage that they have many fresh new faces that aren't overexposed (similar to ECW mid-90s). You could do some interesting programs with Orton, Sheamus or Big Show in NXT (nobody should want this...), but still they got this stale aura on them that it would drag the product down at some point
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone.
Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Sept 20, 2015 8:42:34 GMT -5
I think they still have the big spots but like you say they manage to structure the big matches in such a way that the story always remains the focal point and abiding memory. As already mentioned the space between the big matches also helps.
Yet in many ways NXT is more complex and doesn't treat the audience like idiots. Raw is essentially designed so a casual viewer can drop in and get into the show straight away which often results in poor long-term story telling, characters that don't change for years before doing a sudden 180 and a big mess of inconsistencies.
However to get the most out of NXT you have to watch regularly. Stories are more subtle, characters tend to shift slowly and as a result when the story and/or character arc reaches their conclusion they mean more. For example you can look at the top NXT women and logically chart the gradual changes to their characters in a way that's rarely possible on the main roster.
This is all backed up by a certain level of consistency and reasoning. They make a point of addressing any plot flaws you may be able to point to, for example logically Owens had done nothing to deserve a title shot so soon after debuting so they made a big point of justifying it.
They've even gone to the effort of coming up with (admittedly flimsy) character based reasons to justify the recent ladder and ironwomen matches.
tl;dr: In many ways Raw punishes you for watching every week while NXT rewards you.
(Obviously there are exceptions to all of that)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 14:20:36 GMT -5
I think NXT could stand to be a little less basic than it is, mostly in how they seem to have like three or four storylines they just keep doing over and over. What they're doing works, don't get me wrong, just watching NXT on a week to week basis gets old fast because everything's just paint by numbers to stall until the Takeovers.
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Post by Big Bad Kahuna on Sept 20, 2015 15:47:23 GMT -5
I think NXT could stand to be a little less basic than it is, mostly in how they seem to have like three or four storylines they just keep doing over and over. What they're doing works, don't get me wrong, just watching NXT on a week to week basis gets old fast because everything's just paint by numbers to stall until the Takeovers. I see your point and disagree There are many respect storylines indeed (Corbin/Joe, Neville/Zayn, Sasha/Bayley...), but it's the nuances between those feuds that set them apart somewhat: Corbin hates seeing indy gods invade, Neville knows Zayn always fails winning the big one, Sasha thinks Bayley is a hokey/corny part of the women's division etc |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 20, 2015 16:47:40 GMT -5
I think NXT could stand to be a little less basic than it is, mostly in how they seem to have like three or four storylines they just keep doing over and over. What they're doing works, don't get me wrong, just watching NXT on a week to week basis gets old fast because everything's just paint by numbers to stall until the Takeovers. I see your point and disagree There are many respect storylines indeed (Corbin/Joe, Neville/Zayn, Sasha/Bayley...), but it's the nuances between those feuds that set them apart somewhat: Corbin hates seeing indy gods invade, Neville knows Zayn always fails winning the big one, Sasha thinks Bayley is a hokey/corny part of the women's division etc He's right. Everything seems like it's stalling for time. There's his massive drop in star power between the "Indy gods" and the women and everyone else, and it kinda kills everyone. WWE has no midcard (just a blob of guys who are over/credible because they held/challenged for a world title/feuded with Cena at some point) that's even more apparent in NXT. Tyler Breeze is either mixing it up with top talents, and when he's not, he's slumming it with schmucks. Alex Riley's full time return was a mess because he has to be shoehorned into "Kevin Owens vs. the World"; there's nothing to work his way back up from because everyone is either in the main event or a big jobber. Solomon Crowe has to flounder in...being Solomon Crowe because again, there's nothing at his level to work with. Even with NXT supposedly "pushing the tag division" as its new shiny toy, it feels like everyone outside of Enzo and Cass, the Vaudevillains, the Hype Bros and to some extent Gable/Jordan are just random jobbers. Even Gargano and Ciampa who are "hot free agents from the indies", are presented like "eh some dudes"; they're basically Blue Pants with names. |
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Post by Big Bad Kahuna on Sept 20, 2015 17:06:49 GMT -5
I see your point and disagree There are many respect storylines indeed (Corbin/Joe, Neville/Zayn, Sasha/Bayley...), but it's the nuances between those feuds that set them apart somewhat: Corbin hates seeing indy gods invade, Neville knows Zayn always fails winning the big one, Sasha thinks Bayley is a hokey/corny part of the women's division etc He's right. Everything seems like it's stalling for time. There's his massive drop in star power between the "Indy gods" and the women and everyone else, and it kinda kills everyone WWE has no midcard, that's even more apparent in NXT. Tyler Breeze is either mixing it up with top talents, and when he's not, he's slumming it with schmucks. Alex Riley's full time return was a mess because he has to be shoehorned into "Kevin Owens vs. the World"; there's nothing to work his way back up from because everyone is either in the main event or a big jobber. Solomon Crowe has to flounder in...being Solomon Crowe because again, there's nothing at his level to work with. Even with NXT supposedly "pushing the tag division" as its new shiny toy, it feels like everyone outside of Enzo and Cass, the Vaudevillains, the Hype Bros and to some extent Gable/Jordan are just random jobbers. Even Gargano and Ciampa who are "hot free agents from the indies", are presented like "eh some dudes"; they're basically Blue Pants with names. Idk I'm a guy who used to watch 94-96 WWE and WCW religiously (all the C-shows too) and enjoyed them with all those squash matches and most of the roster looking strong and wins/losses meaning sth, instead of 50/50 booking and rollup/distraction finishes The NXT TV show does remind me of those times. Many squashes to establish everyone, a few copetitive matches to keep it interesting...this weeks show was a perfect example, loved it! |
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Sept 20, 2015 18:02:44 GMT -5
They need more than that. They need a whole array of professional jabronis. Like they had in the 1980's. Could have a mix of indie wrestlers looking for a few bucks, and some veterans who can still go, who are willing to do jobs. Half of the new callups do a few months to a year of jobbing before they catch their wind. Tye Dillinger and Jason Jordan Blake and Murphy CJ Parker Rick Victor Tyler Breeze as Mike Dalton Paige was that way for about 3 weeks before they couldn't ignore her cheers |
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