Man vs. woman equality or violence against women?

[nickcave]

Here's a great article from Vice about this issue.

www.vice.com/read/does-mixed-gender-wrestling-promote-equality-or-violence-against-women?utm_source=vicetwitterus

[Deleted]

It all depends on how its booked.

What it comes down to is that most people are still stuck in an older mindset of "don't hit girls!" which really should be "don't hit anyone."

But since this is wrestling people see a mixed-gender match and they should realize that its basically just like an action movie or choreographed stage fighting. Its not like this was an unprovoked assault or something - its two "competitors" agreeing to a wrestling bout.

When it comes to kids - its up to the parent to decide whether or not their child is able to handle that level of fictionalized violence against anyone (be it man or woman), but in terms of whether or not is inherently promoting violence against women is a loaded issue.

If the angle is that the woman is a (heel) valet being forced into a match or being assaulted by a (babyface) male wrestler to draw a reaction from the crowd - then yeah maybe, but I also put that in the same category as if someone like Zeb Coulter was assaulted by a face. Dude's an old man and not an active wrestler - that's bascially elder abuse.

[Vern]

I've gotten into massive discussions about this on this board so I'll just post once and try to summarize my point in a very concise fashion:

I feel that telling women like Candice LeRae and Kimber Lee that they're not allowed to wrestle men because they're women is far, FAR more sexist and damaging to idea of equality and empowerment than any other option. If a woman is doing something well, telling her she can't do it anymore just because she is a woman is the definition of sexist.

[Halloween]

The way I see it is as follows:

If the men wrestle the women and the women wrestle the men the response would be much like the one from the mother in the article. "It's bad for the kids to see, they'll think it's okay".

If you don't let the women wrestle the men and force them to wrestle women you'd get the "That isn't fair! Professional wrestling is sexist!"

It's really a lose-lose. What I'd suggest is let the girls compete with the guys and the parents be adults about it and take little Johnny aside after the matches and say "They're just pretending. It's all a show and you must never act with violence towards anyone regardless of gender because violence is wrong". Most well adjusted kids are going to understand that and if your kid isn't well adjusted enough to indeed understand that then he/she probably shouldn't be watching wrestling.

To me it comes down to laziness from parents or the inability to be stern with them. It's easy to say "It sets a bad example so I don't want it" but it's a lot harder to teach the kids that violence of all types is wrong and that a show like wrestling is fictional.

What's next? No more Pokemon because the Pokemon knock one another out?

[Deleted]

I want to say that it's never okay, as it could be construed as promoting violence against women, but at the same time some of my favorite movies are kung fu flicks where women are in knock down drag outs with guys. It's a no win, so the best answer is to avoid it completely.

[Deleted]

Nov 18, 2015 15:32:20 GMT -5 Vern said:

I've gotten into massive discussions about this on this board so I'll just post once and try to summarize my point in a very concise fashion:

I feel that telling women like Candice LeRae and Kimber Lee that they're not allowed to wrestle men because they're women is far, FAR more sexist and damaging to idea of equality and empowerment than any other option. If a woman is doing something well, telling her she can't do it anymore just because she is a woman is the definition of sexist.

I think it just depends on the vibe of the organization it's happening in. If we're talking more reality based feds like ROH I don't think it would be believable for the same reason you'll never see men vs. women in MMA or you don't get mixed gender sports, which isn't because of sexism any more than it's just men have a natural physical advantage against women. Obviously the theatrical nature of pro wrestling gives you more leeway for this sort of thing, but in terms of presenting an organization as a real sport, there isn't really a precedent for having women actively and consistently fighting men. I'm not opposed to it if the context is right, Chyna working against guys made sense, Candice LeRae has great matches with guys in PWG, but I don't know how many women can have that good of matches with guys or how many would even want to, and when men and women don't gel in the ring it's usually quite awkward to watch to me.

[CATCH_US IS the Conversation]

Nov 19, 2015 22:08:28 GMT -5 Halloween said:

The way I see it is as follows:

If the men wrestle the women and the women wrestle the men the response would be much like the one from the mother in the article. "It's bad for the kids to see, they'll think it's okay".

If you don't let the women wrestle the men and force them to wrestle women you'd get the "That isn't fair! Professional wrestling is sexist!"

It's really a lose-lose. What I'd suggest is let the girls compete with the guys and the parents be adults about it and take little Johnny aside after the matches and say "They're just pretending. It's all a show and you must never act with violence towards anyone regardless of gender because violence is wrong". Most well adjusted kids are going to understand that and if your kid isn't well adjusted enough to indeed understand that then he/she probably shouldn't be watching wrestling.

To me it comes down to laziness from parents or the inability to be stern with them. It's easy to say "It sets a bad example so I don't want it" but it's a lot harder to teach the kids that violence of all types is wrong and that a show like wrestling is fictional.

What's next? No more Pokemon because the Pokemon knock one another out?

It encourages kids to throw balls at animals.

[Chuck Conry]

Didn't read it, but does it mention that Chris Dickinson match?

[Mozenrath]

Depends, I guess. If it's "arm drags, pinning combinations, actual athletic competition", then I'm fine with man vs woman.

If it's "choke her, punch her, throw her around while creeps in the audience practically drool", then f*** no. Wrestling should be resonating with audiences, but they should still keep in mind just who they are catering to, and some people are sick.

[Vern]

I think I came up with a solution that works for me!
(with apologies to nickcave )

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}

[Emmet Russell]

Nov 20, 2015 3:15:26 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Depends, I guess. If it's "arm drags, pinning combinations, actual athletic competition", then I'm fine with man vs woman.

If it's "choke her, punch her, throw her around while creeps in the audience practically drool", then f*** no. Wrestling should be resonating with audiences, but they should still keep in mind just who they are catering to, and some people are sick.

I'm in the same boat.

The whole Dickinson/Kimber Lee incidient comes to mind here. I don't need to see a man violently swinging a chair at the head of a woman, and then throwing her as hard as possible into a turnbuckle. It's hard to watch. But if they book her to have back-and-forth wrestling matches with men, I don't care.

[El Cokehead del Knife Fight]

The whole thing about the picture used in the article was that Miami was trying to talk down the heels from putting one of her friends through a table and instead Josh Shooter (he was part of a group with her and the tag team they were facing) put her through it . And guess what, it was presented as f***ed up of the heels to do, they were kayfabe suspended and the faces ran them out of the building that show then beat the shit out of them at the most recent MCW show.

[Old Baby]

Speaking strictly as a fan, not someone who's trying to be politically correct or SJW, I don't care for it.

If this were a real combat sport and a woman wanted to fight the man, I might say "Sure, throw her in there and we'll see how tough she is". However, since this is scripted entertainment, I think it puts women in a needlessly awkward position where the fans are being asked to accept they're as tough as the men without any way for them to prove that they are. This is an issue for those to whom suspension of disbelief is important. The predominately held belief is that women are going to be at a huge disadvantage when competing against men on a physical level, so I'm afraid that putting women in this position ultimately patronizes them instead of elevating them.

The exception would be a promotion like Chikara, where suspension of disbelief is not their selling point. I could see it working there.

[Frizzle Fry]

Nov 20, 2015 3:15:26 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Depends, I guess. If it's "arm drags, pinning combinations, actual athletic competition", then I'm fine with man vs woman.

If it's "choke her, punch her, throw her around while creeps in the audience practically drool", then f*** no. Wrestling should be resonating with audiences, but they should still keep in mind just who they are catering to, and some people are sick.

Agree. I dont like brutal beatdowns even when is a man vs man or women vs women match. You know, when they are really trying to hurt the other instead of only trying to make LOOK like this

[Andy Martin]

I'm not really big on it, to be honest.

[Ruthless Pessimism]

Equal rights...and lefts.

If it's presented as a legit contest and not just "bigger, stronger" male wrestler tossing female wrestler around like a sack of crap, then by all means go for it.

[crabbymelt]

In a not so related discussion, sparring at karate tourneys- they always lump women in together, which means your opponent can be a pixie 18 year old or a 200lb gorilla of a middle-aged woman. I'm 135 pounds so neither opponent is preferable. At one tourney, I was given the choice to enter the 15-17 year old division (full of waifs) or spar the men. I wanted to spar the men. This guy said "nope, don't like violence against women. Here, fight my black belt who's running the ticket counter....who's 150 heavier than you and three grades higher." Needless to say, I did not do well. I got rabbit punched once and I was like "screw this." What made me so immensely angry about the whole thing was that all the "men" in the black belt division were 5'6-5'7 and weighed the same or less than I did. I don't care if they have balls, I want a fair match. But I digress.

And long as the story line is clear this is a fair contest or, even if it isn't,somebody getting a comeuppance, then I don't have any issue with it. I am reminded of Beulah/Whipwreck and Jericho/Chyna as examples. Now if it's Bayley vs. Brock, obviously that's crap because there's zero suspension of disbelief.

[Reflecto]

Nov 22, 2015 17:07:02 GMT -5 crabbymelt said:

In a not so related discussion, sparring at karate tourneys- they always lump women in together, which means your opponent can be a pixie 18 year old or a 200lb gorilla of a middle-aged woman. I'm 135 pounds so neither opponent is preferable. At one tourney, I was given the choice to enter the 15-17 year old division (full of waifs) or spar the men. I wanted to spar the men. This guy said "nope, don't like violence against women. Here, fight my black belt who's running the ticket counter....who's 150 heavier than you and three grades higher." Needless to say, I did not do well. I got rabbit punched once and I was like "screw this." What made me so immensely angry about the whole thing was that all the "men" in the black belt division were 5'6-5'7 and weighed the same or less than I did. I don't care if they have balls, I want a fair match. But I digress.

And long as the story line is clear this is a fair contest or, even if it isn't,somebody getting a comeuppance, then I don't have any issue with it. I am reminded of Beulah/Whipwreck and Jericho/Chyna as examples. Now if it's Bayley vs. Brock, obviously that's crap because there's zero suspension of disbelief.

Even the nature of "somebody getting a comeuppance" is also a question mark as well, since the dynamics also matter too much there (Using present day examples, "Rusev gets his comeuppance by seeing Lana beat him" and "Paige gets her comeuppance by having Ric Flair beat her" have two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT meanings.)

Beyond that, it's just normal as a fight- if it's a fair contest, then it should go beforehand. Even if punches or kicks get used in the fight, using "the fans are perverts" won't help (perverts will perv as much or more if they're grappled and put into holds as they would from punches or kicks, and if they're this common in a match, not using them would still inherently make it seem like the opponent's holding back and defeat the purpose.)

[agent817]

Okay, did anybody ever have a problem with Chyna having matches with men in late-1999?