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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Nov 18, 2015 13:39:32 GMT -5
Rewatching the movies, they are the worst army I've ever seen. Stormtroopers laugh at these guys.
They get their asses kicked constantly.
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Nov 18, 2015 13:45:51 GMT -5
They were essentially slaves with no training or motivation other than fear, so I don't recall them ever being bright.
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JDviant
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Post by JDviant on Nov 18, 2015 14:01:09 GMT -5
All I want to say is I like Faramir better in the books.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Nov 18, 2015 14:35:07 GMT -5
Here's the thing about Orcs and Goblinkind.
Yes, they are numerous and can be threats to settlements and villages, but the thing that keeps them from obtaining dominance is the infighting and hatred they have for even their own kind. Ready to turn on them at first moment of opportunity and stab them in the back.
Look at The Return of The King, When Shagrat and Gorbag fought over Frodo's mythril shirt their troops forgot all about their loyalty to Sauron and began fighting and killing each other. That's why they can't ever achieve anything.
It takes a person of great power to command or install fear in them and even then as I mentioned Sauron struggled to control them.
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Post by Gremlin on Nov 18, 2015 14:45:54 GMT -5
Absolutely.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Nov 18, 2015 15:15:49 GMT -5
In reading the books, I always envisioned the Orcs as being an undisciplined horde with no real structure outside of "Bigger and Meaner Orcs tell lesser orcs what to do". The only reason the Bigger and Meaner Orcs have any sort of plan is because something even Bigger and Meaner tells them.
In laymans terms, it would be like an army of first graders lead by a couple 3rd grade bullies that are kept in line by a handful of 5th grade bullies that all answer to one big evil 7th grader that lost his Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Ring.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Nov 18, 2015 15:20:33 GMT -5
I guess I'm just wondering why these guys are considered such a threat in the hands of Sauruman/Sauron, yet they are wiped out easily.
Hell, even the Witch King is a loser
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Nov 18, 2015 15:22:41 GMT -5
I'd like to know how there can be so freaking many orcs when there don't seem to be any female ones. They're like Smurfs that way.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Nov 18, 2015 15:25:31 GMT -5
I guess I'm just wondering why these guys are considered such a threat in the hands of Sauruman/Sauron, yet they are wiped out easily. Hell, even the Witch King is a loser I was always under the impression that with Sauron it was a total odds game. Basically he would send Thousands of Orcs against Hundreds of Men with the idea that the Men would lose hope and just crumble. (He normally was right) With Sauruman, I always thought his arrogance cost him. He thought he "bred the suck" out of orcs with his breeding programs. So he expected to crush a weak enemy with a force superior in numbers AND skill. He ended up overestimating the talent of his troops, being ignorant of the defense of Rohan and blowing off the idea that anybody would come to Theoden's aid at Helm's Deep since he spent years making Theoden King Asshole. |
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Johnny B. Decent
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Nov 18, 2015 15:33:10 GMT -5
I guess I'm just wondering why these guys are considered such a threat in the hands of Sauruman/Sauron, yet they are wiped out easily. Hell, even the Witch King is a loser Those aren't Orcs, per se. They are Uruk-Hai, half-Orc, half-Man. That's why they are also taller, as well. |
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jagilki
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Post by jagilki on Nov 18, 2015 15:34:15 GMT -5
In reading the books, I always envisioned the Orcs as being an undisciplined horde with no real structure outside of "Bigger and Meaner Orcs tell lesser orcs what to do". The only reason the Bigger and Meaner Orcs have any sort of plan is because something even Bigger and Meaner tells them. In laymans terms, it would be like an army of first graders lead by a couple 3rd grade bullies that are kept in line by a handful of 5th grade bullies that all answer to one big evil 7th grader that lost his Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Ring. Somewhere a grade school teacher just started crying |
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Nov 18, 2015 15:42:08 GMT -5
I guess I'm just wondering why these guys are considered such a threat in the hands of Sauruman/Sauron, yet they are wiped out easily. Hell, even the Witch King is a loser Those aren't Orcs, per se. They are Uruk-Hai, half-Orc, half-Man. That's why they are also taller, as well. Yeah, I guess I am meaning both Orcs and Uruk-Hai. |
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Nov 18, 2015 15:46:20 GMT -5
I guess I'm just wondering why these guys are considered such a threat in the hands of Sauruman/Sauron, yet they are wiped out easily. Hell, even the Witch King is a loser I was always under the impression that with Sauron it was a total odds game. Basically he would send Thousands of Orcs against Hundreds of Men with the idea that the Men would lose hope and just crumble. (He normally was right) With Sauruman, I always thought his arrogance cost him. He thought he "bred the suck" out of orcs with his breeding programs. So he expected to crush a weak enemy with a force superior in numbers AND skill. He ended up overestimating the talent of his troops, being ignorant of the defense of Rohan and blowing off the idea that anybody would come to Theoden's aid at Helm's Deep since he spent years making Theoden King Asshole. Sauron's mindset was of "We Have Reserves." Basically what Rome did. Even when his massive army that attacked Minas Tirith was defeated, he still had tens of thousands of orcs within Mordor he could let loose. No matter how many orcs Rohan or Gondor killed, he could just have more harvested and ready to fight whilst every man counted. I think in Shadow of Mordor they mentioned that hundreds could be made in under a day. |
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on Nov 18, 2015 17:53:27 GMT -5
I was always under the impression that with Sauron it was a total odds game. Basically he would send Thousands of Orcs against Hundreds of Men with the idea that the Men would lose hope and just crumble. (He normally was right) With Sauruman, I always thought his arrogance cost him. He thought he "bred the suck" out of orcs with his breeding programs. So he expected to crush a weak enemy with a force superior in numbers AND skill. He ended up overestimating the talent of his troops, being ignorant of the defense of Rohan and blowing off the idea that anybody would come to Theoden's aid at Helm's Deep since he spent years making Theoden King Asshole. Sauron's mindset was of "We Have Reserves." Basically what Rome did. Even when his massive army that attacked Minas Tirith was defeated, he still had tens of thousands of orcs within Mordor he could let loose. No matter how many orcs Rohan or Gondor killed, he could just have more harvested and ready to fight whilst every man counted. I think in Shadow of Mordor they mentioned that hundreds could be made in under a day. Yeah, a lot of the battles in the LOTR trilogy are the people of Middle Earth essentially buying time till the ring is destroyed. With the elves leaving, men without a leader, and the dwarves scattered, Sauron's forces eventually over running everyone was just an inevitability. The quest of the Fellowship is more or less a Hail Mary pass to just destroy Sauron once and for all rather than gradually losing ground to orcs, goblins, and Uruk-hai. |
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Post by ANuclearError on Nov 18, 2015 18:01:36 GMT -5
When it comes to Minas Tirith, Sauron got dealt a shit hand with the whole Army of the Dead thing. There's no way to take that into account in strategy, especially when they can only be defeated by a single sword held by some Ranger with a certain lineage.
Actually, that raises an interesting question: How did the people of Gondor react to the Army of the Dead? If you see a bunch of green ghosts rushing your city while being ransacked by orcs and trolls, wouldn't you assume at the star that these guys are on their side too? Must have been confusing when they helped.
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Post by Cela on Nov 18, 2015 19:50:03 GMT -5
I thought they were pretty badass in the LOTR movies.
The Hobbit movies however... damnit Peter Jackson.
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Post by Cela on Nov 18, 2015 19:50:53 GMT -5
When it comes to Minas Tirith, Sauron got dealt a shit hand with the whole Army of the Dead thing. There's no way to take that into account in strategy, especially when they can only be defeated by a single sword held by some Ranger with a certain lineage. Actually, that raises an interesting question: How did the people of Gondor react to the Army of the Dead? If you see a bunch of green ghosts rushing your city while being ransacked by orcs and trolls, wouldn't you assume at the star that these guys are on their side too? Must have been confusing when they helped. Like when Sheamus turned face and ran into help Cena, and Cena had a fight stance against him for a few seconds. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 18, 2015 20:03:56 GMT -5
All I want to say is I like Faramir better in the books. He's certainly more likeable, but his story arc doesn't make a lick of sense. Even Gandalf, Galadriel, and Aragorn are tempted by the power of the ring, and here's Boromir's little brother, who just goes "I know you have the ring, but I wouldn't even pick it up if I found it lying on the ground" and sends Frodo and Sam on their way. Lord of the Rings is probably my favourite novel, but man Tolkien made some dumb choices. |
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Nov 18, 2015 20:38:49 GMT -5
^
I had thought that Tolkien was trying to show that the brothers embodied the best and worst of what remained in Men. Bravery combined with foolish pride in Boromir, and Willpower combined with foolish honor in Faramir.
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Post by Glitch on Nov 18, 2015 20:48:51 GMT -5
When it comes to Minas Tirith, Sauron got dealt a shit hand with the whole Army of the Dead thing. There's no way to take that into account in strategy, especially when they can only be defeated by a single sword held by some Ranger with a certain lineage. Actually, that raises an interesting question: How did the people of Gondor react to the Army of the Dead? If you see a bunch of green ghosts rushing your city while being ransacked by orcs and trolls, wouldn't you assume at the star that these guys are on their side too? Must have been confusing when they helped. On that note, why didn't they use the dead army to take out Sauron's strong hold? They could have been freed afterwards, and it would made sense. |
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