Roman heel turn ...

[saintpat]

... I see post after post after post saying this is what they should do ... but where do those who says this is the best course think it should go/should have gone from there?

So he's a corporate heel champ, basically Rollins 2.0.

Then what?

Presuming he did so and won the title with The Authority's help/blessing ... I guess he feuds with Ambrose. But does anyone really think that (a) it would be fresh and different in any way than what we've had for month after month with Rollin (b) think it could go fo all the way to WM with Roman/Rollins and still be something anyone wants to see on the biggest stage of the year (c) have any other ideas besides Dean who could slot into the top babyface role for him to work with?

Obviously returning Cena ... but I don't believe the Cena haters who have been pushing this heel Roman idea really want to see Cena back in the title picture as the top heel. Ziggler? Undertaker? Who?

And when is he supposed to turn back babyface, and in what way that's going to make those who think this is a good idea say, "Yes, I can get behind him now"?

[Deleted]

Worked well for Rock. The reason people want him to go heel is because heels are allowed to be more expressive and most guys usually find themselves as heels. HBK, Austin, Rock, Cena, Orton, these are just some guys who have gone on to find themselves as heels and then when they go face, they just keep their same character but do more face things. That's the biggest problem with Reigns, he's not himself out there. When he is? It's usually when he's with both the Shield guys just messing around or when he's doing an interview. Until Reigns can become himself, he will never be who they want him to be as a face.

That's the same reason why apparently Triple H was pushing hard for Reigns to go heel during the Wyatt stuff but Vince shot him down. If Triple H knows Reigns, the guy he's been pushing heavily, needs to go heel you know something's up.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

The dude needs to find a god damn personality. He's smug enough to pull off a Corporate Champion look and feel, and he did in the early days of NXT for a hot minute.

He's just not working as a face, the fans are booing him already. Just do it, you literally cant do worse with Roman than you already have...

[Starshine]

Yes, he's the corporate champ because in the eyes of a vast number of fans he's already there. Whether they book him strong is up to them, but from historical evidence a heel turn is more likely to help him become a stronger face long term than staying on the current path. Otherwise he risks becoming another Sheamus, who I don't think ever recovered from his 2012 main event face run.

[RI Richmark]

Nov 23, 2015 18:59:09 GMT -5 @kn said:

Worked well for Rock.

With all due respect, things are different now.

Back then, the whole Evil Boss pushes his Corporate champion at the expense of the popular babyface was still fresh and new. The whole thing has been done to death by now.

I don't mind if Roman turns heel, I just didn't want to replay Survivor Series 98. I don't want to see him go corporate.

[ben:friendship frog]

I can kinda see him turning on Ambrose because of last night and not being there for him.
Maybe have him realise he should have listened to Triple H all along.

Contract ladder match for no.1 contendership at TLC between Ambrose and Reigns 3 years after their debut match. Roman win thanks to Authority who are backing 2 horawa. Roman beats Sheamus at Rumble. Ambrose wins Rumble and Wrestlemania turns into the Ambrose Asylum.

Just some armchair booking haha.

[Deleted]

If Roman turns heel and acts cool and badass he'll get over and fans will cheer when he turns face. If Roman turns heel and plays second fiddle to HHH and Steph no one will care.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2015 19:13:39 GMT -5 RI Richmark said:

Nov 23, 2015 18:59:09 GMT -5 @kn said:

Worked well for Rock.

With all due respect, things are different now.

Back then, the whole Evil Boss pushes his Corporate champion at the expense of the popular babyface was still fresh and new. The whole thing has been done to death by now.

I don't mind if Roman turns heel, I just didn't want to replay Survivor Series 98. I don't want to see him go corporate.

I edited my post, there's more than that.

And it honestly makes sense with who he is to the company to go corporate. He's literally the corporate guy, fans know this, Reigns also isn't being himself nor has he found his character so a heel turn is needed. He hasn't found his character since he's been a singles face so assuming he'll all of a sudden do it now when he hasn't in a year isn't how things go.

[A Platypus Rave]

Nov 23, 2015 19:17:54 GMT -5 @kn said:

Nov 23, 2015 19:13:39 GMT -5 RI Richmark said:

With all due respect, things are different now.

Back then, the whole Evil Boss pushes his Corporate champion at the expense of the popular babyface was still fresh and new. The whole thing has been done to death by now.

I don't mind if Roman turns heel, I just didn't want to replay Survivor Series 98. I don't want to see him go corporate.

I edited my post, there's more than that.

And it honestly makes sense with who he is to the company to go corporate. He's literally the corporate guy, fans know this, Reigns also isn't being himself nor has he found his character so a heel turn is needed. He hasn't found his character since he's been a singles face so assuming he'll all of a sudden do it now when he hasn't in a year isn't how things go.

I keep saying this... Dude is already the corporate champ and everyone knows it because the WWE doesn't' even try to hide it.

actually embracing it can only help him in the long run... because what they are doing is not doing him any favors.

[saintpat]

I've only seen one answer about what to do with him as a heel, who he should feud with, etc.

The rest seems to be "well, someone once turned heel and became popular" -- well, lots of guys who turned heel didn't become popular. I don't think "it worked for Rock" in a specific circumstance 15 years ago means it's a magic formula.

I was at SS last night. I don't know how it came across on PPV, but there were mixed reaction -- but pretty much EVERYBODY had a reaction to Roman, and from where I sat (not just people around me, I was in a good vantage to see the arena) it was probably 60-40 or more favoring Roman ... moreso for the ADR match, but 60-40 in the Face vs. Face.

I'm an Ambrose guy, but one thing I got from last night is that people were focused on RR, not on him. The chants weren't "Let/s Go Roman/Let's Go Dean" ... in fact there were no chants for Dean. That tells me whether you like him or hate him, Roman is everyone's focus when he's in a match.

Yes, people booed the cash-in ... but I in no way got the impression that people were booing Roman. They were booing Sheamus and Triple H as they stood over him. To say they were booing Roman is silly.

[Starshine]

Nov 23, 2015 19:54:53 GMT -5 saintpat said:

I've only seen one answer about what to do with him as a heel, who he should feud with, etc.

The rest seems to be "well, someone once turned heel and became popular" -- well, lots of guys who turned heel didn't become popular. I don't think "it worked for Rock" in a specific circumstance 15 years ago means it's a magic formula.

I was at SS last night. I don't know how it came across on PPV, but there were mixed reaction -- but pretty much EVERYBODY had a reaction to Roman, and from where I sat (not just people around me, I was in a good vantage to see the arena) it was probably 60-40 or more favoring Roman ... moreso for the ADR match, but 60-40 in the Face vs. Face.

I'm an Ambrose guy, but one thing I got from last night is that people were focused on RR, not on him. The chants weren't "Let/s Go Roman/Let's Go Dean" ... in fact there were no chants for Dean. That tells me whether you like him or hate him, Roman is everyone's focus when he's in a match.

Yes, people booed the cash-in ... but I in no way got the impression that people were booing Roman. They were booing Sheamus and Triple H as they stood over him. To say they were booing Roman is silly.

It's a booking strategy that has worked with more than just the Rock. The traditional WWE formula of making top face stars has been build them up as a heel then turn them when their push seriously begins. There are more examples of guys following this trend than bucking it. Savage. Austin. Michaels. Rock. Foley. Cena. Triple H. All these guys were pushed as heels and developed their characters before they turned face and reached the main event. People are suggesting a Reigns heel turn because it's honestly the best chance he's got at getting to that level. He hasn't got the unique characteristics to buck that trend like Hogan's charisma, or Hart's high level wrestling abilities, he needs help to get there and the heel push has been a proven success more often than not.

[saintpat]

Nov 23, 2015 20:07:08 GMT -5 Starshine said:

Nov 23, 2015 19:54:53 GMT -5 saintpat said:

I've only seen one answer about what to do with him as a heel, who he should feud with, etc.

The rest seems to be "well, someone once turned heel and became popular" -- well, lots of guys who turned heel didn't become popular. I don't think "it worked for Rock" in a specific circumstance 15 years ago means it's a magic formula.

I was at SS last night. I don't know how it came across on PPV, but there were mixed reaction -- but pretty much EVERYBODY had a reaction to Roman, and from where I sat (not just people around me, I was in a good vantage to see the arena) it was probably 60-40 or more favoring Roman ... moreso for the ADR match, but 60-40 in the Face vs. Face.

I'm an Ambrose guy, but one thing I got from last night is that people were focused on RR, not on him. The chants weren't "Let/s Go Roman/Let's Go Dean" ... in fact there were no chants for Dean. That tells me whether you like him or hate him, Roman is everyone's focus when he's in a match.

Yes, people booed the cash-in ... but I in no way got the impression that people were booing Roman. They were booing Sheamus and Triple H as they stood over him. To say they were booing Roman is silly.

It's a booking strategy that has worked with more than just the Rock. The traditional WWE formula of making top face stars has been build them up as a heel then turn them when their push seriously begins. There are more examples of guys following this trend than bucking it. Savage. Austin. Michaels. Rock. Foley. Cena. Triple H. All these guys were pushed as heels and developed their characters before they turned face and reached the main event. People are suggesting a Reigns heel turn because it's honestly the best chance he's got at getting to that level. He hasn't got the unique characteristics to buck that trend like Hogan's charisma, or Hart's high level wrestling abilities, he needs help to get there and the heel push has been a proven success more often than not.

Most of those had been faces and heels and faces again and heels again. I don't think the formula is the same as you're saying.

But as I recall, the Shield debuted as a heel faction, got over and turned babyface.

[Starshine]

Nov 23, 2015 20:12:11 GMT -5 saintpat said:

Nov 23, 2015 20:07:08 GMT -5 Starshine said:

It's a booking strategy that has worked with more than just the Rock. The traditional WWE formula of making top face stars has been build them up as a heel then turn them when their push seriously begins. There are more examples of guys following this trend than bucking it. Savage. Austin. Michaels. Rock. Foley. Cena. Triple H. All these guys were pushed as heels and developed their characters before they turned face and reached the main event. People are suggesting a Reigns heel turn because it's honestly the best chance he's got at getting to that level. He hasn't got the unique characteristics to buck that trend like Hogan's charisma, or Hart's high level wrestling abilities, he needs help to get there and the heel push has been a proven success more often than not.

Most of those had been faces and heels and faces again and heels again. I don't think the formula is the same as you're saying.

But as I recall, the Shield debuted as a heel faction, got over and turned babyface.

It's in the lead to their title win, not a total career count of face/heel turns. Look at Edge for example, he struggled for ages trying to get to the main event scene and it took a strong heel run to get him there. Austin was dead in the water as the Ringmaster, but a switch to the more defined Stone Cold heel character was what sent him to the stratosphere. Punk was a white meat babyface, who while he had support due to his independant work, never really connected with the wide crowds. It took a heel turn and him obnoxiously pushing his strightedge lifestyle to really get noticed. It a formula that works if the guy has the skills and creativity needed. History proves it.

Reigns never developed a personality in the Shield. He was just the guy who they heavily protects and gave the big highlight spots to. It would be the equivalent of saying the Ringmaster was enough for Austin, he didn't need the Stone Cold heel character to get over. Except the latter gave him the opportunity to develop a personality and show off what he could really offer as a character.

[saintpat]

Nov 23, 2015 20:21:00 GMT -5 Starshine said:

Nov 23, 2015 20:12:11 GMT -5 saintpat said:

Most of those had been faces and heels and faces again and heels again. I don't think the formula is the same as you're saying.

But as I recall, the Shield debuted as a heel faction, got over and turned babyface.

It's in the lead to their title win, not a total career count of face/heel turns. Look at Edge for example, he struggled for ages trying to get to the main event scene and it took a strong heel run to get him there. Austin was dead in the water as the Ringmaster, but a switch to the more defined Stone Cold heel character was what sent him to the stratosphere. Punk was a white meat babyface, who while he had support due to his independant work, never really connected with the wide crowds. It took a heel turn and him obnoxiously pushing his strightedge lifestyle to really get noticed. It a formula that works if the guy has the skills and creativity needed. History proves it.

Reigns never developed a personality in the Shield. He was just the guy who they heavily protects and gave the big highlight spots to. It would be the equivalent of saying the Ringmaster was enough for Austin, he didn't need the Stone Cold heel character to get over. Except the latter gave him the opportunity to develop a personality and show off what he could really offer as a character.

And Bryan finally got over as a semi-comedy act as the Tag Team Champion in Hell/No.

Austin being a heel as the Ringmaster did not in any way make him popular as a babyface. In fact, he was more of a tweener and because he was playing off of Evil Boss VKM he got cheered as a babyface. If he had come into WWE as Stone Cold/Rattlesnake, he could have gotten over without transitioning from the Ringmaster character. That had nothing to do with it.

[Starshine]

Nov 23, 2015 20:27:56 GMT -5 saintpat said:

Nov 23, 2015 20:21:00 GMT -5 Starshine said:

It's in the lead to their title win, not a total career count of face/heel turns. Look at Edge for example, he struggled for ages trying to get to the main event scene and it took a strong heel run to get him there. Austin was dead in the water as the Ringmaster, but a switch to the more defined Stone Cold heel character was what sent him to the stratosphere. Punk was a white meat babyface, who while he had support due to his independant work, never really connected with the wide crowds. It took a heel turn and him obnoxiously pushing his strightedge lifestyle to really get noticed. It a formula that works if the guy has the skills and creativity needed. History proves it.

Reigns never developed a personality in the Shield. He was just the guy who they heavily protects and gave the big highlight spots to. It would be the equivalent of saying the Ringmaster was enough for Austin, he didn't need the Stone Cold heel character to get over. Except the latter gave him the opportunity to develop a personality and show off what he could really offer as a character.

And Bryan finally got over as a semi-comedy act as the Tag Team Champion in Hell/No.

Austin being a heel as the Ringmaster did not in any way make him popular as a babyface. In fact, he was more of a tweener and because he was playing off of Evil Boss VKM he got cheered as a babyface. If he had come into WWE as Stone Cold/Rattlesnake, he could have gotten over without transitioning from the Ringmaster character. That had nothing to do with it.

You're missing the point. If they want Reigns to succeed, they need to think of the bigger picture. For as much as you claim he's doing fine in his current role, he's still alienating a lot of fans. It's all but guraranteed that he'll be booed out of Mania again this year on this current path. He's moved so far past the Shield that any good will he's had is gone, what what little he achieved during that run had no lasting power. I.e. they never developed a personality for him which is essential for top WWE babyfaces (similar to Austin's Ringmaster run). Austin needed to develop a personality and the Ringmaster didn't cut it, he needed that Stone Cold heel run so he could get over and feud with Bret and take it all the way to Vince. They built it up, the fans saw it develop, they got invested in the character, told their friends, and got them on board, boom period. Now i'm not saying a Reigns heel push could lead into another boom period, but he's better off developing that character in a heel run than as a face. WWE doesn't book faces to show personality. They tend to fit certain molds which stifles their development (see New Day for example).

Also Bryan got over during his heel "YES" phase. Remember it was Mania 28 where Sheamus squashing him killed the crowd, and likely Sheamus' appeal as a face going forward. That's where going against the grain has gotten WWE in the past.

[wisdomwizard]

Nov 23, 2015 19:17:27 GMT -5 @akeem said:

If Roman turns heel and acts cool and badass he'll get over and fans will cheer when he turns face. If Roman turns heel and plays second fiddle to HHH and Steph no one will care.

Bingo. This is the biggest reason amongst others why I don't want him to turn heel, because his reign will just be a rerun of Rollins.