Jericho talks the commitment to being a "real heel"

[héad.casé]

Jericho indicated that being a heel and being a babyface are both fun and challenging as a performer and while making the audience hate you is easier than it is to make them like you, once the fans like you, it is more difficult to get them to hate you. With that said, Jericho may prefer working as a heel simply because he had more success in his career as a heel.

"I've won the title six times as a heel and never once as a babyface, so I guess that tells you which I like better, maybe, if I had to really guess. But both are fun and both are very difficult to do. You really have to be able to understand what it is that the fans are looking for in either case."

On the subject of what makes a true heel, Jericho said that buying into the role is essential, but that is something not too many performers do nowadays.

"Being a heel, a true heel, you've really got to commit to it and a lot of guys don't now. To be a real, true heel, is a hard thing and you really have to be into it." Jericho added, "if you want to be a real heel, merchandise? What's that? Magazines? Why would I ever want to be in a magazine or on a website feature as a heel? No interviews allowed. Nothing allowed because if I'm a real heel, I don't want to talk to anybody."

www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2015/1207/604513/chris-jericho-on-if-pg-era-is-too-restrictive/

[Boourns]

Dec 7, 2015 17:21:22 GMT -5 héad.casé said:

Jericho indicated that being a heel and being a babyface are both fun and challenging as a performer and while making the audience hate you is easier than it is to make them like you, once the fans like you, it is more difficult to get them to hate you. With that said, Jericho may prefer working as a heel simply because he had more success in his career as a heel.

"I've won the title six times as a heel and never once as a babyface, so I guess that tells you which I like better, maybe, if I had to really guess. But both are fun and both are very difficult to do. You really have to be able to understand what it is that the fans are looking for in either case."

On the subject of what makes a true heel, Jericho said that buying into the role is essential, but that is something not too many performers do nowadays.

"Being a heel, a true heel, you've really got to commit to it and a lot of guys don't now. To be a real, true heel, is a hard thing and you really have to be into it." Jericho added, "if you want to be a real heel, merchandise? What's that? Magazines? Why would I ever want to be in a magazine or on a website feature as a heel? No interviews allowed. Nothing allowed because if I'm a real heel, I don't want to talk to anybody."

www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2015/1207/604513/chris-jericho-on-if-pg-era-is-too-restrictive/

It's a difficult way to make money. CM Punk alluded to it in the infamous podcast. Sure, you have to take more than a pinch of salt with most of what he said, but he was absolutely right when he said as a high merchandise selling guy the last thing you want to do is turn heel cause those royalty cheques dry up pretty quickly. 

But as Jericho alludes to here, if you're successful at it you're going to be in the main event and that can only be a good thing. 

[xCompackx]

When it comes to merchandise for heels, the thing too is that it must be a lot harder to come up with good merchandise for heels since the idea is that you're supposed to hate them. Taking Punk's heel run for example, holy shit were there a few shitty shirts that got released during that time, and even the decent ones were overshadowed pretty quickly.

[Deleted]

I really don't see the benefit of being so attached to getting people to boo you. Per Jericho's approach you basically make no money from merch or side appearances, and spend half your time being deliberately boring because if you're actually entertaining, people will cheer for you. Way I see it is you should be there more to make fans have a good time than to get them to give you the desired reaction.

[Gerard Gerard]

I still haven't really come to terms with the seeming necessity to have your name printed on your t-shirt. Are you worried it's gonna get lost, or something?

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2015 17:45:41 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I really don't see the benefit of being so attached to getting people to boo you. Per Jericho's approach you basically make no money from merch or side appearances, and spend half your time being deliberately boring because if you're actually entertaining, people will cheer for you. Way I see it is you should be there more to make fans have a good time than to get them to give you the desired reaction.

This.

People are more than inclined to suspend disbelief for the sake of having a good time, so while I get where he was coming at, it didn't make any sense in the long run to play the asshole in real life. And I also disagree with his comment that it's easier to make fans hate you than to like you. If you find your hook as a babyface, you are set for years and years, but as a heel, you need to find new angles to draw ire every so often, because you are at a larger risk of becoming a liability than a babyface that successfully found their niche. I mean, the Miz went from being one of the hottest acts in wrestling to being one of the most stale in just over a year because he didn't update anything about himself.

Besides, in pro wrestling, if you have an opportunity to make money, why not? For some, it's probably the only time they can get serious royalties.

[Vice honcho room temperature]

Dec 7, 2015 17:45:46 GMT -5 Gerard Gerard said:

I still haven't really come to terms with the seeming necessity to have your name printed on your t-shirt. Are you worried it's gonna get lost, or something?

Its why my mom put my name on my underwear as a kid

[RIHT]

In an ideal wrestling world, faces and heels are booked well and perform well. Cheering and booing is done at faces and heels respectively, usually because it's fun to do so. Having some heels legitimately hated is fine, too.

[celtics543]

What they would need is to set up a profit sharing system with merchandise. The heel needs some incentive so they should take the feud and the time frame and split the merch money from that time. For instance if Cena is feuding with Jericho, presumably so many Cena shirts are being sold because they want to see him beat Jericho, therefore Jericho is actually somewhat responsible for those sales. Him and Cena should split that money.

[Reflecto]

Dec 7, 2015 18:20:27 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

Dec 7, 2015 17:45:41 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I really don't see the benefit of being so attached to getting people to boo you. Per Jericho's approach you basically make no money from merch or side appearances, and spend half your time being deliberately boring because if you're actually entertaining, people will cheer for you. Way I see it is you should be there more to make fans have a good time than to get them to give you the desired reaction.

This.

People are more than inclined to suspend disbelief for the sake of having a good time, so while I get where he was coming at, it didn't make any sense in the long run to play the asshole in real life. And I also disagree with his comment that it's easier to make fans hate you than to like you. If you find your hook as a babyface, you are set for years and years, but as a heel, you need to find new angles to draw ire every so often, because you are at a larger risk of becoming a liability than a babyface that successfully found their niche. I mean, the Miz went from being one of the hottest acts in wrestling to being one of the most stale in just over a year because he didn't update anything about himself.

Besides, in pro wrestling, if you have an opportunity to make money, why not? For some, it's probably the only time they can get serious royalties.

The problem though, is that those two things are intertwined. People DON'T suspend their disbelief for the sake of having a good time anymore enough to make it work, because too many fans' good time is "Look how smart and awesome I am! I can recognize how talented a heel performer he/she is! I'm smarter than all these other sheeple who probably think they're really an asshole in real life, so they'll know I'm their true fan and better than all these casuals! Yay me!"- and in the process of that, they just forget that to a heel performer, boos ARE that heel performers' cheers.

If you cheer a guy when they're trying to be the asshole and make people dislike them, you're making their job harder and making them look like they're ineffective and suck at their job, defeating the whole purpose of your cheers...and in the process, you make it so that there really are no other options. Either they listen to the cheers and turn a wrestler face who's far better as a heel due to the cheers (leading to the "the faces in WWE are so lame, and they aren't as good as they were when they were heels" problem), or end up with people needing to follow Jericho's advice and slowly but surely strip away every single thing people like about them until the fans finally turn on them and hate them for it (leading to people being deliberately boring.)

[Reflecto]

Dec 7, 2015 18:24:57 GMT -5 celtics543 said:

What they would need is to set up a profit sharing system with merchandise. The heel needs some incentive so they should take the feud and the time frame and split the merch money from that time. For instance if Cena is feuding with Jericho, presumably so many Cena shirts are being sold because they want to see him beat Jericho, therefore Jericho is actually somewhat responsible for those sales. Him and Cena should split that money.

That's the weird thing, because in the older era of WWF, they DID have a profit sharing system- if they had merchandice, the face and the heel they were feuding with at the time would split the merch money. It only seemed to change once the NWO came in and heels realized "wait, we can be cool enough to sell T-shirts too, why take half the face's merch money?"

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2015 18:20:27 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

Dec 7, 2015 17:45:41 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I really don't see the benefit of being so attached to getting people to boo you. Per Jericho's approach you basically make no money from merch or side appearances, and spend half your time being deliberately boring because if you're actually entertaining, people will cheer for you. Way I see it is you should be there more to make fans have a good time than to get them to give you the desired reaction.

This.

People are more than inclined to suspend disbelief for the sake of having a good time, so while I get where he was coming at, it didn't make any sense in the long run to play the asshole in real life. And I also disagree with his comment that it's easier to make fans hate you than to like you. If you find your hook as a babyface, you are set for years and years, but as a heel, you need to find new angles to draw ire every so often, because you are at a larger risk of becoming a liability than a babyface that successfully found their niche. I mean, the Miz went from being one of the hottest acts in wrestling to being one of the most stale in just over a year because he didn't update anything about himself.

Besides, in pro wrestling, if you have an opportunity to make money, why not? For some, it's probably the only time they can get serious royalties.

To be fair with Miz, a big part of it was also the fact that people were wanting to cheer for him for a long ass time and they just wouldn't turn him, and when they finally did they did so in a way that treated it as basically inconsequential and had him become even more obnoxious instead of playing up the underdog parts of his persona.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

In what world is being a bad guy meaning you can't have merch or do interviews? Is a featured WWE.com article about how great Seth "So vain I had a statue of myself made" Rollins is not a great opportunity for him to talk himself up and further the gimmick? Was Owens saying that people should buy his song on iTunes so that he can get more money not totally in character for him? Plenty of heels want glory, money, and attention, so what part about being on the cover is a magazine is out of character? Since when are vanity and greed not absolutely viable negative character traits that heels have been milking forever?

It's a very old school attitude he's peddling, and it's in a way that comes out like total nonsense. The business has evolved, and there is room for heels to use those evolutions to help further their storylines and strengthen those storylines. Hell, the Michael Cole interviews have consistently proven some of the most deep and product-enriching content WWE's put out, and those initially began as a way for Triple H to convey the Authority's motivations.

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2015 18:31:58 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Dec 7, 2015 18:20:27 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

This.

People are more than inclined to suspend disbelief for the sake of having a good time, so while I get where he was coming at, it didn't make any sense in the long run to play the asshole in real life. And I also disagree with his comment that it's easier to make fans hate you than to like you. If you find your hook as a babyface, you are set for years and years, but as a heel, you need to find new angles to draw ire every so often, because you are at a larger risk of becoming a liability than a babyface that successfully found their niche. I mean, the Miz went from being one of the hottest acts in wrestling to being one of the most stale in just over a year because he didn't update anything about himself.

Besides, in pro wrestling, if you have an opportunity to make money, why not? For some, it's probably the only time they can get serious royalties.

The problem though, is that those two things are intertwined. People DON'T suspend their disbelief for the sake of having a good time anymore enough to make it work, because too many fans' good time is "Look how smart and awesome I am! I can recognize how talented a heel performer he/she is! I'm smarter than all these other sheeple who probably think they're really an asshole in real life, so they'll know I'm their true fan and better than all these casuals! Yay me!"- and in the process of that, they just forget that to a heel performer, boos ARE that heel performers' cheers.

If you cheer a guy when they're trying to be the asshole and make people dislike them, you're making their job harder and making them look like they're ineffective and suck at their job, defeating the whole purpose of your cheers...and in the process, you make it so that there really are no other options. Either they listen to the cheers and turn a wrestler face who's far better as a heel due to the cheers (leading to the "the faces in WWE are so lame, and they aren't as good as they were when they were heels" problem), or end up with people needing to follow Jericho's advice and slowly but surely strip away every single thing people like about them until the fans finally turn on them and hate them for it (leading to people being deliberately boring.)

Of course I get that quandary. You want to be hated, but you want the hatred to be legitimate hatred, and therefore look like you're doing your job. The problem, though, is that "heat" is so varied, you often don't really know what kind of reaction you'll get. Whether it's good heat, a vitriolus heat, or a "go away" heat, you won't know until your character has some time to be out there. Besides, the smarks kinda ruin things sometimes for the rest of us because they want to look smart about "kayfabe" and "workrate" and all that schlock.

So, you are stuck in this position where it feels like you have both be a bad guy AND also have to pander somehow to the "cool" audience or anybody who might be a rudo fanboy, even though that flies in the face of your main goal.

My issue with Jericho lies in the fact that he says that, in order to be hated, you must turn down the opportunity to make money at all times. Granted, a lot of outlets, besides some magazines and Larry King, don't like it when somebody wanders in not as themselves but as a persona and they have to "entertain" that persona instead of having a legitimate interview, but if you're crafty enough, you can probably figure out a way to both earn an extra check or two and build notoriety that can be used in the company for storytelling and heatseeking. As for merchandise sales, a lot of villainous shirts and stuff don't sell too well because there isn't as much emphasis on quality as there is just getting it out there.

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2015 18:34:44 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

Dec 7, 2015 18:20:27 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

This.

People are more than inclined to suspend disbelief for the sake of having a good time, so while I get where he was coming at, it didn't make any sense in the long run to play the asshole in real life. And I also disagree with his comment that it's easier to make fans hate you than to like you. If you find your hook as a babyface, you are set for years and years, but as a heel, you need to find new angles to draw ire every so often, because you are at a larger risk of becoming a liability than a babyface that successfully found their niche. I mean, the Miz went from being one of the hottest acts in wrestling to being one of the most stale in just over a year because he didn't update anything about himself.

Besides, in pro wrestling, if you have an opportunity to make money, why not? For some, it's probably the only time they can get serious royalties.

To be fair with Miz, a big part of it was also the fact that people were wanting to cheer for him for a long ass time and they just wouldn't turn him, and when they finally did they did so in a way that treated it as basically inconsequential and had him become even more obnoxious instead of playing up the underdog parts of his persona.

I was actually looking at 2010 Miz versus early 2012 Miz, which did lead into that awful babyface turn at the end of 2012.

[Bo Rida]

That was easier for SRS Jericho as he had the money and credibility built up by that point, even in WCW he had a reputation and in his mind nothing much to lose, it must be a lot harder for a newer heel.
If they don't have a inbuilt gimmick you need those things to click with people, it helps them seem like a real person.

I think Kevin Owens gets the balance right, he does the interviews but treats them with disdain, he has a cool t-shirt but has the kayfabe excuse of getting money for his son and it also makes him look like a hypocrite when feuding with Cena. His interviews during his feud with Sami are some of the best in recent history, the video of his son added to a feud with Cena. Without those I wouldn't have cared half as much.


There's also the problems that the whole "best for business" and "face of the WWE" bollocks cause, in kayfabe why would The Authority want somebody that doesn't play their game?
In fact take that to the logical conclusion and the attitude Jericho describes would be more suited to a face, a mysterious rebel that refuses to follow the corporate rules or exploit his fans.

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2015 17:21:22 GMT -5 héad.casé said:

"Being a heel, a true heel, you've really got to commit to it and a lot of guys don't now. To be a real, true heel, is a hard thing and you really have to be into it." Jericho added, "if you want to be a real heel, merchandise? What's that? Magazines? Why would I ever want to be in a magazine or on a website feature as a heel? No interviews allowed. Nothing allowed because if I'm a real heel, I don't want to talk to anybody."

If you are a heel, and you think you are better than everyone else:

-Why wouldn't you want to be all over the merchandise? ( So you can claim you sell more than anyone else)
-Why wouldn't you want to be on the cover of magazines? ( You are are the only one they should cover/or deserves to be on the cover/write articles about )
-Why wouldn't you want to be featured on a website, or every website. ( You are better than everyone else. They SHOULD be talking about you, and only you )
- Why wouldn't you do interviews. ( Talk to me, and only to me, the greatest wrestler of this or any generation, not some jobber. )
- If you are a real heel you want the only person that people talk about to be YOU. And only YOU. ( TALK ABOUT WADE BARRETT MORE! )



I understand where he's coming from but I'd have to disagree. Heels are almost always egotistical. They NEED everything to be centered around them.

[Deleted]

In terms of making money, the thought is that putting in that work character-wise makes you a more credible character with drawing power down the road, which is more important than merch sales right now which may harm your character. But since nobody's trying, and WWE's merchandising machine is so strong, most people have more faith in the money now than the impact that being a true heel could have down the line.

From an artiste and idealistic standpoint I'd agree with Jericho, but reality says the merch sales are probably your best bet, especially since that's how the company chooses who to push anyway.

[Starshine]

Jericho has a very strange way of viewing what makes a heel if he thinks they don't want to make money. It absolutely makes sense for certain heel characters to want their face plastered in magazines. posters and t-shirts. He should realise he's only talking about one very specific heel character and not all heels as a whole.

For example, 1999 Y2J heel Jericho would absolutely jump at being on the cover of WWF magazine. He was an egotistical jerk, it's a part of the package. Know your character, and understand that not every heel is a scowling, suit wearing, grinch.

[lemonyellowson]

Don't forget about publicly punching women fans either. That's where the real heeling is.