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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 2:21:58 GMT -5
ECW was incredible if for nothing else but how diverse it was, it had international, pure wrestling matches, guys like Lance Storm and Jerry Lynn who were consumate professionals and in-ring artists, spliced in with the heady brilliance of Raven, and then throw in a pile of dunderheads who just wanted to cut each other open and give each other concussions. I have no idea how a guy like Lance Storm shares a locker room with New Jack.
ECW was on the borderline of brilliance and insanity and though there are a lot of things about it I could take or leave, there was a sophistication to it that didn't make you feel dirty watching it like with XPW and the other ECW rip offs that came after. The surreality of it in is what makes ECW great to watch for me. There are too many great matches and moments that only could have happened in ECW. Mike Awesome vs. Spike Dudley, the RVD/Jerry Lynn matches, Taz/Bam Bam Bigelow. I don't think ECW had a negative affect on wrestling, ECW didn't invent chairshots, steroids or pain pills, professional wrestling was gonna learn these hard lessons one way or another.
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543Y2J
Patti Mayonnaise
Seventh level .gif Master
Posts: 38,794
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Post by 543Y2J on Dec 31, 2015 5:08:11 GMT -5
It does also deserve credit for introducing luchadors to an American audience for the first time. Especially creating some great hybrid matches in the blending of the lucha and ECW hardcore style with Rey, Psychosis
WCW did have a fair hand in introducing luchadors to America in the incredible cruiserweight division (they managed to book more of them than ECW did) but only after they got the start in ecw. It could be argued that without that move to bring them in there wouldn't be LU today.
So for that I feel that it does deserve credit. But it certainly hasn't aged well
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 31, 2015 6:13:25 GMT -5
It does also deserve credit for introducing luchadors to an American audience for the first time. Especially creating some great hybrid matches in the blending of the lucha and ECW hardcore style with Rey, Psychosis WCW did have a fair hand in introducing luchadors to America in the incredible cruiserweight division (they managed to book more of them than ECW did) but only after they got the start in ecw. It could be argued that without that move to bring them in there wouldn't be LU today. So for that I feel that it does deserve credit. But it certainly hasn't aged well That is hogwash. Guys like Konnan and Rey Sr. worked WCW events in the early 90s and WCW co-promoted a PPV featuring many of the guys who would go on to be the cornerstones of the WCW cruiserweight division. They got their first exposure in the US thanks to WCW, they got their biggest exposure in the US thanks to WCW, ECW was a place they dropped by for a cup of coffee people have decided deserves all the credit for discovering guys WCW already knew about. If you want to credit someone for getting Lucha onto the bigger stage in the US, thank Konnan, heck even Bischoff deserves more credit than he gets for his willingness to work with AAA.
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543Y2J
Patti Mayonnaise
Seventh level .gif Master
Posts: 38,794
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Post by 543Y2J on Dec 31, 2015 7:49:59 GMT -5
It does also deserve credit for introducing luchadors to an American audience for the first time. Especially creating some great hybrid matches in the blending of the lucha and ECW hardcore style with Rey, Psychosis WCW did have a fair hand in introducing luchadors to America in the incredible cruiserweight division (they managed to book more of them than ECW did) but only after they got the start in ecw. It could be argued that without that move to bring them in there wouldn't be LU today. So for that I feel that it does deserve credit. But it certainly hasn't aged well That is hogwash. Guys like Konnan and Rey Sr. worked WCW events in the early 90s and WCW co-promoted a PPV featuring many of the guys who would go on to be the cornerstones of the WCW cruiserweight division. They got their first exposure in the US thanks to WCW, they got their biggest exposure in the US thanks to WCW, ECW was a place they dropped by for a cup of coffee people have decided deserves all the credit for discovering guys WCW already knew about. If you want to credit someone for getting Lucha onto the bigger stage in the US, thank Konnan, heck even Bischoff deserves more credit than he gets for his willingness to work with AAA. Ah I didn't even realise they had a ppv at that time. I was going off the Rise and Fall of Ecw/bad memory for reference. Now that that is confirmed I guess the only positive is the hybrid matches that they had as lucha/hardcore style in ecw
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 31, 2015 10:07:23 GMT -5
It does also deserve credit for introducing luchadors to an American audience for the first time. Especially creating some great hybrid matches in the blending of the lucha and ECW hardcore style with Rey, Psychosis WCW did have a fair hand in introducing luchadors to America in the incredible cruiserweight division (they managed to book more of them than ECW did) but only after they got the start in ecw. It could be argued that without that move to bring them in there wouldn't be LU today. So for that I feel that it does deserve credit. But it certainly hasn't aged well That is hogwash. Guys like Konnan and Rey Sr. worked WCW events in the early 90s and WCW co-promoted a PPV featuring many of the guys who would go on to be the cornerstones of the WCW cruiserweight division. They got their first exposure in the US thanks to WCW, they got their biggest exposure in the US thanks to WCW, ECW was a place they dropped by for a cup of coffee people have decided deserves all the credit for discovering guys WCW already knew about. If you want to credit someone for getting Lucha onto the bigger stage in the US, thank Konnan, heck even Bischoff deserves more credit than he gets for his willingness to work with AAA. Those people you mentioned did one shots in WCW that went nowhere. Dean wrestled with his brother Joe in WCW in a one shot before he got a regular gig with them. WCW brought in international talents in for quick appearances and it was years and in some cases decades later before they appeared again like Norman Smiley. That exposure those luchadors got was so minor that most not realized they even appeared in NWA/WCW. When you're in a tournament with talent the Jive Tones, Mulkey Brothers, and the Thunderfoots; it pretty easy. AAA was making headways in Mexico and Konnan agreed to come to ECW with some of his best guys to capitalize on it. It was their ECW outings that earned them gigs because there was better folks still in AAA yet the ones who debuted in ECW got gigs first. Bischoff at the time had a working deal with New Japan. When he saw the success of Rey Mysterio Jr, he expanded the deal to include more AAA folks. Konnan tried to work with WCW before ECW but WCW wasn't not in the mood to work with him. The buzz they got from their ECW time changed their mind.
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Post by Ashy Larry on Dec 31, 2015 10:25:02 GMT -5
Anyone who criticizes ECW for bringing hardcore/garbage wrestling to the mainstream should direct that criticism toward FMW. Heyman borrowed the hardcore style and story telling from FMW and made it hip in America. ECW was to U.S. wrestling/sports entertainment what FMW was to Japanese wrestling/sports entertainment. The sports style presentation was also a throwback to older wrestling federations and almost everything felt organic. Russo won't admit it but he did copy the ECW format into his writing and tweaked it to match his ideas which was what made the Attitude Era popular. I'm a mark for a lot of that stuff and that style spawned a lot of different hardcore feds from CZW to XPW to IWA-MS and while those feds may get criticism, it has also greatly influenced cult TV shows like Wrestling Society X and Lucha Underground with the gritty form of sports entertainment they produced. I would argue that LU is more hardcore wrestling than it is traditional lucha. All of that gets traced back to ECW and before that, Heyman's interest in FMW.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 31, 2015 10:53:02 GMT -5
Anyone who criticizes ECW for bringing hardcore/garbage wrestling to the mainstream should direct that criticism toward FMW. Heyman borrowed the hardcore style and story telling from FMW and made it hip in America. ECW was to U.S. wrestling/sports entertainment what FMW was to Japanese wrestling/sports entertainment. The sports style presentation was also a throwback to older wrestling federations and almost everything felt organic. Russo won't admit it but he did copy the ECW format into his writing and tweaked it to match his ideas which was what made the Attitude Era popular. I'm a mark for a lot of that stuff and that style spawned a lot of different hardcore feds from CZW to XPW to IWA-MS and while those feds may get criticism, it has also greatly influenced cult TV shows like Wrestling Society X and Lucha Underground with the gritty form of sports entertainment they produced. I would argue that LU is more hardcore wrestling than it is traditional lucha. All of that gets traced back to ECW and before that, Heyman's interest in FMW. Onita learned about hardcore from his stint in Memphis. To think a concession stand brawl in Tupelo, MS helped inspired death match wrestling. Hardcore wrestling was around decades before ECW. Dusty Rhodes' forehead was scarred long before the Sandman had his first beer. The Sheik stabbed people with pencils and used chairs before it was cool. And LU is more like indy lucha like DTU than mainstream lucha like CMLL & AAA. You see the ECW influence in the mature storytelling, grittiness, and smash mouth style.
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Post by Ashy Larry on Dec 31, 2015 10:58:18 GMT -5
Anyone who criticizes ECW for bringing hardcore/garbage wrestling to the mainstream should direct that criticism toward FMW. Heyman borrowed the hardcore style and story telling from FMW and made it hip in America. ECW was to U.S. wrestling/sports entertainment what FMW was to Japanese wrestling/sports entertainment. The sports style presentation was also a throwback to older wrestling federations and almost everything felt organic. Russo won't admit it but he did copy the ECW format into his writing and tweaked it to match his ideas which was what made the Attitude Era popular. I'm a mark for a lot of that stuff and that style spawned a lot of different hardcore feds from CZW to XPW to IWA-MS and while those feds may get criticism, it has also greatly influenced cult TV shows like Wrestling Society X and Lucha Underground with the gritty form of sports entertainment they produced. I would argue that LU is more hardcore wrestling than it is traditional lucha. All of that gets traced back to ECW and before that, Heyman's interest in FMW. Onita learned about hardcore from his stint in Memphis. To think a concession stand brawl in Tupelo, MS helped inspired death match wrestling. Hardcore wrestling was around decades before ECW. Dusty Rhodes' forehead was scarred long before the Sandman had his first beer. The Sheik stabbed people with pencils and used chairs before it was cool. And LU is more like indy lucha like DTU than mainstream lucha like CMLL & AAA. You see the ECW influence in the mature storytelling, grittiness, and smash mouth style. I stand corrected. I didn't know what DTU was until I looked it up, looks very Perros Del Mal/NGX-like.
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Post by paperbackhero on Dec 31, 2015 11:23:36 GMT -5
All I got to say that if it wasn't for ECW, we still be stuck in the new generation era, and the wwe probably would've gone out of business The WWF would have to have changed course because of WCW's success and that owes more to Japan and the Mexican companies than it does to ECW. Maybe without ECW the WWF wouldn't have swung so hard toward carnival sideshow as it did and wouldn't have had to have spent the 2000s backpedalling to try and distance themselves from the image of trash TV they so rightfully acquired during that era. WCW's success was the NWO...the lucha stuff didnt move the needle. Not in the slightest. Their Japan stuff...which was only up to 94, did nothing...Chono? A lazy Mutoh? Hell, even when WCW poached Rey, Psicosis, Juvy, Maenko, et al, they still only got low rent Japanese stars...Kaz? Ultimo was working with lucha at the time, not through a Japan company....the Lucha they got, were from ECW exposure..Konaan's early foray was a lower midcard thing, with no traction. WWE copying ECW directly led to the Attitude era...their most profitable period. Letting Austin do his thing, and DX and all that, saved the company...especially from the horrible New Generation stuff that was getting spanked by WCW. WWE only dream about getting the numbers they got during this "trash TV" era you call it. They are only distancing themselves from it due to their shareholder constratints.
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DjZonk
Don Corleone
Where's my cat?
Posts: 1,325
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Post by DjZonk on Dec 31, 2015 12:08:05 GMT -5
It was a product of its time. It didn't suck at the time. Some of the content holds up very well today still, some doesn't - but every wrestling promotion ever has content that doesn't hold up, what, twenty years later.
Sorry OP, but you failed with your examples there bud. Peace out.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 31, 2015 13:17:33 GMT -5
I am being facetious to make a point That's not what that word means.
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Post by MC Blowfish on Dec 31, 2015 13:30:36 GMT -5
The thing with ECW as others have said is that it was so different compared to what we were getting. You had WWF and WCW with slick production, safe storylines, silly characters until ECW took off. ECW gave birth to The Attitude Era for better or worse. The more adult fans were catered to and it felt real. That was what was great about ECW back in the 90s.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Dec 31, 2015 16:06:22 GMT -5
Or did you think New Jack almost murdering a guy was awesome too? Do you ever get tired of baiting people with responses like this?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 17:01:56 GMT -5
I kinda agree, because I feel ECW is very overrated, but I definitely wouldn't say it sucked. It just wasn't as good as people remember. To me, there's a big difference between "it wasn't as good as I remember it," and "it's not what I think is good anymore when watching it 20 years later." It, and everything else I experienced at the time, in the moment, was absolutely "as good as I remember it." Because I was there, experiencing it. And at that moment, yes... it was good. A lot of the notes in the original post in this thread are constructs of the past 20 years. Nobody cared about 3/4 of that stuff in 1995 when the other wrestling on television wasn't as exciting or gritty. They just knew that what they were watching in ECW was an alternative, and something (to that audience, at that time) more interesting, better (in some ways), and yes, to those people, "good." ECW is very much one of those things that you had to experience as it happened to really "get it." Because no, compared to the (way more than in 1995) choreographed dance that wrestling has become in 2015, those guys weren't as flawless in their execution, the audience wasn't constantly thinking about "safe" and "unsafe," they left it up to the performers to give them a show. And they liked the show. Does it "hold up," to watch 20 years later? Not really. But it was great at the time to those who were fans of it.
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Juice
El Dandy
Wrong? Oh he can tell ya about being wrong.
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Post by Juice on Dec 31, 2015 18:16:05 GMT -5
No one gave a shit about unprotected chair shots til Benoit happened.
Women have always been sex objects in wrestling even Elizabeth, who was presented in a very good way bit an object nonetheless.
For every person who talks shit on credible, cw Anderson and Balls Mahoney there's a guy like me who loved them.
Furthermore if you don't think they were telling a story with that violence you dont understand wrestling.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 18:41:38 GMT -5
I like how Heyman just let people be what they were, and enhanced whatever that was. He didn't have a preconceived notion of what's good and try to micromanage everything. He had a vision, but he knew that vision would be realized by giving guys the freedom and instilling confidence in them, just letting everyone tear the house down in the way that those individuals could, and promoting it all as the greatest thing on the planet.
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ECW Sucked
Dec 31, 2015 19:54:01 GMT -5
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Post by MrElijah on Dec 31, 2015 19:54:01 GMT -5
Anyone who criticizes ECW for bringing hardcore/garbage wrestling to the mainstream should direct that criticism toward FMW. Heyman borrowed the hardcore style and story telling from FMW and made it hip in America. ECW was to U.S. wrestling/sports entertainment what FMW was to Japanese wrestling/sports entertainment. The sports style presentation was also a throwback to older wrestling federations and almost everything felt organic. Russo won't admit it but he did copy the ECW format into his writing and tweaked it to match his ideas which was what made the Attitude Era popular. I'm a mark for a lot of that stuff and that style spawned a lot of different hardcore feds from CZW to XPW to IWA-MS and while those feds may get criticism, it has also greatly influenced cult TV shows like Wrestling Society X and Lucha Underground with the gritty form of sports entertainment they produced. I would argue that LU is more hardcore wrestling than it is traditional lucha. All of that gets traced back to ECW and before that, Heyman's interest in FMW. Onita learned about hardcore from his stint in Memphis. To think a concession stand brawl in Tupelo, MS helped inspired death match wrestling. Hardcore wrestling was around decades before ECW. Dusty Rhodes' forehead was scarred long before the Sandman had his first beer. The Sheik stabbed people with pencils and used chairs before it was cool. And LU is more like indy lucha like DTU than mainstream lucha like CMLL & AAA. You see the ECW influence in the mature storytelling, grittiness, and smash mouth style. Man some of the NWA and the WWF got real gritty at times. The Horsemen gang beatings. Jim Cornette hitting Baby Doll with his Racket and braging about it. Heenan trying to blind Tommy Rich in Georgia, Memphis in general, Jake Roberts trying to kill Savage with a snake. Look at Vader vs. Sting or Cactus Jack. Those got real nasty.
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brody
Don Corleone
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Post by brody on Jan 3, 2016 20:56:44 GMT -5
In a nutshell, ECW deviated from the norm and was totally different from what we were used to at the time. New fans are likely desensitized to everything that made ECW stand out 20 years ago. That is exactly why ECW was a big deal and has a place in history. Good answer. ECW got a lot of press for their wild in ring action and risque angles in PWI and other mags. Meanwhile the WWF was showing Mantaur and Doink and WCW was loading up on WWF cast offs and having a lot of bad matches.
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Post by Hickster on Jan 4, 2016 12:14:47 GMT -5
The energy though, you really had to be a fan at the time to get it. Hearing rumors from other fans about some wrestling show that was more "real", flipping through channels late at night and coming across ECW TV. It felt like being a part of some rebel movement. Heatwave 98 is definitely in my top ten PPV's of all time. It was a time and a place. In a world of wrestling struggling to find itself post-Hulkamania, it was a breath of fresh air. (more than likely stale Newports and Red Dawg beer-as it was the 90s) To view it from this side of history doesn't do it justice, all of the imitations of the style have made it seem cliche. Now it's like when I hear Nirvana on classic rock radio...
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StuntGranny®
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Not Actually a Granny
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Post by StuntGranny® on Jan 4, 2016 12:21:11 GMT -5
Hardcore matches suck, yes. I will give you that much.
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