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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jan 13, 2016 18:31:03 GMT -5
Rams moving to St. Louis from Los Angeles in 1995, ending a 50 year run. Funny how people forget this. While I don't disagree as a St. Louis guy but it seems the NFL and Stan forgot about the stats of the LA Rams as well. The whole attendance argument people love to through at us when it was no different there. They won they drew. When they where bad they didn't. They had 20,000 fans at games in the last seasons. The St. Louis Cardinals Football was a hard one as well in this topic.
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Jan 13, 2016 18:46:23 GMT -5
Rams moving to St. Louis from Los Angeles in 1995, ending a 50 year run. Funny how people forget this. While I don't disagree as a St. Louis guy but it seems the NFL and Stan forgot about the stats of the LA Rams as well. The whole attendance argument people love to through at us when it was no different there. They won they drew. When they where bad they didn't. They had 20,000 fans at games in the last seasons. The St. Louis Cardinals Football was a hard one as well in this topic. Only one time, their final game in Los Angeles drew 25,000 and that was after it was decided that they were gone. Counterpoint, it was a different era in the NFL. The league wasn't as big in 1994 as it was in 2015. Second counterpoint, the Rams didn't play in Los Angeles from 1980 to 1994, they played in Anaheim Stadium, 35 miles from the Coliseum. Third counterpoint, they were one of two teams in that radius. When they moved to Anaheim in 1980, they alienated some of their older fans. When the Raiders moved to L.A. in 1982 and won the Super Bowl, that damaged any Rams fanbase, they became little brother to the Raiders. It didn't help they had the 49ers in the same division either. Also, its funny people sympathize with St. Louis but fail to bring up 1995 or when the city tried to bring in the Patriots.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 13, 2016 18:51:08 GMT -5
I need to think over the Dodgers/Giants move from NYC a bit more; I'm kind of fascinated about what baseball around here would look like today if those guys had never left.
The Dodgers' story is a pretty sad one, given that it was a case of "we need a new stadium!" from O'Malley (and, to be fair, Ebbets was getting pretty damn run down by then) and "you can only go to Queens!" from Robert Moses, and just a few years after finally winning a World Series, they're gone, AND they convinced the Giants to come along, too. Thankfully the Mets were there pretty quickly to replace them, but my God, it's still one of the stranger stories. California presented a whole new level of opportunities, but NYC remains the biggest hot bed for MLB to this day.
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Post by Doogie Bowser, MD on Jan 13, 2016 20:18:23 GMT -5
The Dodgers' story is a pretty sad one, given that it was a case of "we need a new stadium!" from O'Malley (and, to be fair, Ebbets was getting pretty damn run down by then) and "you can only go to Queens!" from Robert Moses, and just a few years after finally winning a World Series, they're gone, AND they convinced the Giants to come along, too. Thankfully the Mets were there pretty quickly to replace them The Mets only came along to squash a proposed third baseball league (the Continental League) that wanted to have an NY team and be recognized as part of MLB along with the NL & AL. The man whose idea the CL was an attorney named William Shea.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jan 13, 2016 20:35:47 GMT -5
While I don't disagree as a St. Louis guy but it seems the NFL and Stan forgot about the stats of the LA Rams as well. The whole attendance argument people love to through at us when it was no different there. They won they drew. When they where bad they didn't. They had 20,000 fans at games in the last seasons. The St. Louis Cardinals Football was a hard one as well in this topic. Only one time, their final game in Los Angeles drew 25,000 and that was after it was decided that they were gone. Counterpoint, it was a different era in the NFL. The league wasn't as big in 1994 as it was in 2015. Second counterpoint, the Rams didn't play in Los Angeles from 1980 to 1994, they played in Anaheim Stadium, 35 miles from the Coliseum. Third counterpoint, they were one of two teams in that radius. When they moved to Anaheim in 1980, they alienated some of their older fans. When the Raiders moved to L.A. in 1982 and won the Super Bowl, that damaged any Rams fanbase, they became little brother to the Raiders. It didn't help they had the 49ers in the same division either. Also, its funny people sympathize with St. Louis but fail to bring up 1995 or when the city tried to bring in the Patriots. As noted but the point of using attendance as an excuse shouldn't be. Because why would the Dome ever sellout on a below .500 teams? look at the list and tell me how any below .500 teams was at the top? Just about every bottom of the list on attendance was a lossing team and THAT does include Oakland who several time was below the Rams but who got the payout just now? Better yet lets not even talk about 06 and before all the home sellout games. That just why we in St. Louis are so mad about the whole thing is all the lies and mis information they want to release but we are getting off topic here.
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Doctor Of Style
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Jan 13, 2016 21:02:15 GMT -5
The Colts in the middle of the night I'd say the Kings going from Kansas City to Sac, but that move was more or less justified. Doesn't keep me from getting a little misty eyed though. Baltimore was trying to steal the Colts team away from Irsay under eminent domain, I don't blame him for leaving at all.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 13, 2016 22:25:39 GMT -5
The Dodgers' story is a pretty sad one, given that it was a case of "we need a new stadium!" from O'Malley (and, to be fair, Ebbets was getting pretty damn run down by then) and "you can only go to Queens!" from Robert Moses, and just a few years after finally winning a World Series, they're gone, AND they convinced the Giants to come along, too. Thankfully the Mets were there pretty quickly to replace them The Mets only came along to squash a proposed third baseball league (the Continental League) that wanted to have an NY team and be recognized as part of MLB along with the NL & AL. The man whose idea the CL was an attorney named William Shea. The CL was likely never going to happen, really; it was largely put together to convince MLB to bring expansion teams into the National League, in this case the Mets and the .45s/Astros. Thankfully for us Mets and Astros fans, the ploy worked. And yes, that's where Shea Stadium came from.
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Lupin the Third
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Post by Lupin the Third on Jan 13, 2016 22:56:05 GMT -5
The Colts in the middle of the night I'd say the Kings going from Kansas City to Sac, but that move was more or less justified. Doesn't keep me from getting a little misty eyed though. Baltimore was trying to steal the Colts team away from Irsay under eminent domain, I don't blame him for leaving at all. Yeah, Baltimore pretty much threw down the gauntlet and basically put a gun to Irsay's head, cocked it, and said, "Wanna see if it's loaded?" So I really don't blame Irsay for moving the Colts like he did. Plus, listening to ESPN today, the local affiliate said that Kroenke had a deal with St. Louis that they would need to make updates to the stadium on a needed basis. And if they didn't make those updates, they would compensate the Rams a certain dollar amount, like a "fine" so to speak. And it sounds like the city was not making the needed updates or compensating the Rams for them. Or something of that nature. So I really don't blame Kroenke either.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jan 13, 2016 23:06:16 GMT -5
Baltimore was trying to steal the Colts team away from Irsay under eminent domain, I don't blame him for leaving at all. Yeah, Baltimore pretty much threw down the gauntlet and basically put a gun to Irsay's head, cocked it, and said, "Wanna see if it's loaded?" So I really don't blame Irsay for moving the Colts like he did. Plus, listening to ESPN today, the local affiliate said that Kroenke had a deal with St. Louis that they would need to make updates to the stadium on a needed basis. And if they didn't make those updates, they would compensate the Rams a certain dollar amount, like a "fine" so to speak. And it sounds like the city was not making the needed updates or compensating the Rams for them. Or something of that nature. So I really don't blame Kroenke either. I wonder what have happened had Mayflower not been able to get the Colts out of Maryland before the Senate passed the eminent domain law. It could have had major affects on any other move that's happened since. Certainly it would have gone to SCOTUS.
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Lupin the Third
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Post by Lupin the Third on Jan 13, 2016 23:27:25 GMT -5
Yeah, Baltimore pretty much threw down the gauntlet and basically put a gun to Irsay's head, cocked it, and said, "Wanna see if it's loaded?" So I really don't blame Irsay for moving the Colts like he did. Plus, listening to ESPN today, the local affiliate said that Kroenke had a deal with St. Louis that they would need to make updates to the stadium on a needed basis. And if they didn't make those updates, they would compensate the Rams a certain dollar amount, like a "fine" so to speak. And it sounds like the city was not making the needed updates or compensating the Rams for them. Or something of that nature. So I really don't blame Kroenke either. I wonder what have happened had Mayflower not been able to get the Colts out of Maryland before the Senate passed the eminent domain law. It could have had major affects on any other move that's happened since. Certainly it would have gone to SCOTUS. Probably would've set a precedence. Any team wanting to relocate could be stopped by the local government passing eminent domain. Which would've led to an owner suing for control, or just doing what Irsay did, but have a contention plan set, and have it ready in case as Plan B. But have it set months in advance, and keep it in total secret.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 23:55:59 GMT -5
even bigger travesty: the NHL doing everything it can to keep the Coyotes from leaving Arizona. these moves usually happen for a reason, Bettman. Gary Bettman has about as much business running the NHL as Billy Joel does running a driving school. Bettman is a crappy commissioner but he's far from the worst commissioner or NHL President ever. The one thing I give him credit for was creating parity in the league and actually having the balls to lockout an entire season to make sure there is a salary cap. I do give him credit that he seems to learn from his mistakes from relocations and expansions of not being so short sighted and rushing a move anymore. Seriously he granted an expansion to Tampa Bay before they had arena plans and was a front for the Yakuza and had an owner nobody has ever met who may had never existed. Or relocating Winnipeg straight to Phoenix in an arena that was terrible for hockey and couldn't be converted to be hockey friendly arena hence the mess in Glendale.
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Post by Doogie Bowser, MD on Jan 14, 2016 1:06:10 GMT -5
Gary Bettman has about as much business running the NHL as Billy Joel does running a driving school. Bettman is a crappy commissioner but he's far from the worst commissioner or NHL President ever. The one thing I give him credit for was creating parity in the league and actually having the balls to lockout an entire season to make sure there is a salary cap. I do give him credit that he seems to learn from his mistakes from relocations and expansions of not being so short sighted and rushing a move anymore. Seriously he granted an expansion to Tampa Bay before they had arena plans and was a front for the Yakuza and had an owner nobody has ever met who may had never existed. Or relocating Winnipeg straight to Phoenix in an arena that was terrible for hockey and couldn't be converted to be hockey friendly arena hence the mess in Glendale. Bettman hasn't learned anything. He allowed the Coyotes to burn millions as a league-owned team while a valid offer was on the table from the Winnipeg group that later purchased the worthless Atlanta team. He continues to have delusions about teams in non-hockey markets to the extent that he's content to let the Panthers (who are actually a decent team on-ice now) rot in suburban Miami and champion the idea of putting an expansion team in Las Vegas.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 1:48:03 GMT -5
Bettman is a crappy commissioner but he's far from the worst commissioner or NHL President ever. The one thing I give him credit for was creating parity in the league and actually having the balls to lockout an entire season to make sure there is a salary cap. I do give him credit that he seems to learn from his mistakes from relocations and expansions of not being so short sighted and rushing a move anymore. Seriously he granted an expansion to Tampa Bay before they had arena plans and was a front for the Yakuza and had an owner nobody has ever met who may had never existed. Or relocating Winnipeg straight to Phoenix in an arena that was terrible for hockey and couldn't be converted to be hockey friendly arena hence the mess in Glendale. Bettman hasn't learned anything. He allowed the Coyotes to burn millions as a league-owned team while a valid offer was on the table from the Winnipeg group that later purchased the worthless Atlanta team. He continues to have delusions about teams in non-hockey markets to the extent that he's content to let the Panthers (who are actually a decent team on-ice now) rot in suburban Miami and champion the idea of putting an expansion team in Las Vegas. Non traditional market teams can work with good ownership. Tampa Bay, San Jose, Nashville, LA, Anaheim, and Dallas have been big success stories. The things is what makes non traditional markets work is often a factor of games being easily accessible and not in suburban hell or less competition of the other major leagues or colleges. Phoenix may have worked if they were in a downtown arena from the start and not in Glendale. Plus Vegas and Quebec City were literally the only two cities to apply for expansion this year. Vegas may work since they have a downtown arena in the Vegas Strip, will attract many canadian snowbird tourists for games, being the only major league in town, Vegas before the recession was the fastest growing major US city, and will have luxury boxes constantly sold it from casinos and investors. Also the one thing about the Panthers that'll defend them about is despite being probably the most dubious NHL franchise of the last 25 years in suburban miami hell, they somehow put on decent attendance numbers. Hell they had 20,000 max capacity sell out games during their winstreak. But stop you're making me into too much of a Bettman apologist and I feel dirty for it.
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Phil Parent
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Post by Phil Parent on Jan 14, 2016 2:08:40 GMT -5
Montreal Expos to Washington Nationals. The Expos had to get the hell out of Montreal at the end because the fans were not showing up anymore and it got to the point where the last year, they had to share games with Puerto Rico in an attempt to get people into the building for the games. There were lots of reasons for that though... - It all started with the 1994 season being stopped and the WS cancelled. The Expos were the best team in baseball and MLB recognized them as such and gave us a bullshit pennant deal that says "Best Team In Baseball 1994" the first time the Blue Jays came to do an exhibition. The stadium was full then but the strike pissed the fans off. - After the season, the team was dismantled in a firesale, and that wouldn't be the last time, we got used to see our good players develop and leave because the ownership didn't want to spend any money because... - They didn't get their downtown stadium. They could have stayed in the Big O but people didn't want to go because... - The ownership group had told the fans the stadium was lousy, ugly, that it was a bad experience overall. If the people trying to get you to go to a show and then told you "You know, the place where we do the show is horrendous. And by the way, our ace outfielder just left for Denver and we got nothing back, enjoy what we had in AAA to replace him" - Eventually, that local ownership group sold to Jeffrey Loria. Need I go on? I will. - Loria at first wasn't so bad. Then, he overpriced the media rights and the Expos weren't on radio or TV anymore. Fans lost track of them His own stadium plans didn't work. - Then the firesales resumed. - Then, that convulated sale happened where MLB got the Expos from Loria, who bought the Marlins and the owner of the Marlins bought another team. - Loria took with him the Expos coaches, all the scouting data, and all the team equipment and office furniture. Anything that wasn't bolted down or a player he left with. Expos staff were hosted by the Habs for a week. - MLB installed two good, honest people in charge of the team: Omar Minaya and Frank Robinson. The team had an uptick, carried by Vladimir Guerrero we were in the running for a playoff spot, while being on life support then.... - MLB refused to pay so that the Expos could do what every other team could, expand the rosters late in the season. It's said that Minaya VERY STRONGLY motherf***ed the MLB Commissioner for it. The team slowly slid in the rankings as fatigue and frustration took over. That was the final nail. - Then to add insult to injury, Guerrero left. - MLB kept pissing on the coffin and sent the team to Puerto Rico for half the home games. With Selig out of office, everybody sees the kind of clusterf*** this was. And now there are talks of bringing a team back, I hope it happens. -------- Nordiques leaving was more simple: Owners couldn't fund a new arena, so the team left. Only reason, the place was full enough.
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Jan 14, 2016 2:34:04 GMT -5
Rams moving to St. Louis from Los Angeles in 1995, ending a 50 year run. Funny how people forget this. The Rams were stolen from St. Louis because of a complete idiot who inherited the team from her dead husband. I've been a Rams fan since I was in diapers and have nothing against St. Louis (I was technically born there), but "St. Louis Rams" always sounded odd, even at their best. To be historically accurate, LA actually stole the Rams from Cleveland.
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Jan 14, 2016 3:28:58 GMT -5
The Rams were stolen from St. Louis because of a complete idiot who inherited the team from her dead husband. I've been a Rams fan since I was in diapers and have nothing against St. Louis (I was technically born there), but "St. Louis Rams" always sounded odd, even at their best. To be historically accurate, LA actually stole the Rams from Cleveland. You missed the post earlier about Reeves moving it on his own power to avoid competing with an upstart Cleveland Browns.
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The_Don_Mecha
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Post by The_Don_Mecha on Jan 15, 2016 15:58:48 GMT -5
Unintended bonus of these recent threads: children can learn geography in the United States through sports. It's how I learned.
To add to the thread: Philadelphia seemed to be the feeder city for the Bay Area in the 1950s and 60s (current Warriors, A's via Kansas City). I think the A's were better and worse off, as they won 5 championships while in Philadelphia from 1901-1954.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 11:52:39 GMT -5
I'm one of those guys that will always wonder about 1975's MLB off-season and how easily 1976 could have had these two teams:
Seattle White Sox Toronto Giants
Even weirder, although Oakland would have had the Bay Area to themselves, owner Charlie O. Finley's insurance business was based in Chicago (he rarely attended games in Oakland, he hired some teenager $7/game to phone him and do play-by-play. Some guy named Stanley Burrell.) and it's been said baseball would pull a few strings to get another AL team back in Chicago.
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Post by Doogie Bowser, MD on Jan 18, 2016 15:10:58 GMT -5
I'm one of those guys that will always wonder about 1975's MLB off-season and how easily 1976 could have had these two teams: Seattle White Sox Toronto Giants Many were so sure that the San Diego Padres were going to move to DC in 1974 that Topps initially printed their entire baseball card set that year to put the Padres roster on a team simply named "Washington".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 15:20:54 GMT -5
I'm one of those guys that will always wonder about 1975's MLB off-season and how easily 1976 could have had these two teams: Seattle White Sox Toronto Giants Many were so sure that the San Diego Padres were going to move to DC in 1974 that Topps initially printed their entire baseball card set that year to put the Padres roster on a team simply named "Washington". Think it was just the first two series of cards, not all of them. Back then, the cards came out in something like 7 series of printing. By the time they did a 6th, some players had updated cards if they were traded. Topps first "traded set" (1972, IIRC) was actually just the final series with updated cards inserted into packs.
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