Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 14, 2016 6:18:28 GMT -5
Kevin Owens is a dick to everyone, wouldn't be that forced for him to be a dick about that. Rusev is doing his heel foreigner schtick and brings up gay tolerance of how America is becoming weak and unmanly, gay dude takes offence. The Vaudevillains keep their talk of being from a bygone era going, and it starts similar to that Rusev one. Depending on the character, it's not that hard to do. Yeah, but you'd need to establish in-universe that the guy's gay before making a big deal out of it, and there isn't really much of a way to organically do that without being blatant about it. Plus we've seen how gun-shy sponsors can be these days. While TNA'd probably go full-force with it regardless, with WWE they'd probably cancel plans for such a thing immediately after the first time someone complains about it. The gunshyness yeah, that's a problem. But I don't think you need to establish someone as gay first, say Neville was the one who came out to answer it, people are surprised, he can just be "well it never came up", the whole point really is that it's not a big deal it's just part of his character, like how he's English but doesn't go around with a Union Jack the whole time. He's just facing down someone who's being a bigot and insulting him same as if they did it about another topic.
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Post by ________ has left the building on May 14, 2016 6:33:05 GMT -5
TNA promised a revolutionary character and what they delivered was the usual oversexed, horny gay trope. Wrestling does not how to handle a gay character without falling into the same traps. A lesbian character is written like she is in a porno. A gay male is a limp wristed dandy or exotico.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on May 14, 2016 8:23:30 GMT -5
Raven told a story in a shoot he had with James Mitchell that there were big plans for the character but when Jordan came dressed like that and with the male valet, the character died. The gimmick was really offensive, I blame Russo for that bullshit. That asshole probably believes that bisexual people are all like that, like a poster above mentioned. They had an opportunity to present an important and possibly interesting character and they chose they most offensive route. I blame Orlando himself. Didn't he pitch the same gimmick to WWE before he got released? Wait what? Why he chose the most humiliating and offensive gimmick? He should've known that he was not only going to embarrass himself but insult a whole community that didn't deserve it.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on May 14, 2016 9:40:58 GMT -5
Orlando Jordan could've been the SRS Gay Bisexual we needed, but he instead chose to do...that. I don't even see how it's needed. The entire concept's stupid, since wrestling isn't about romance typically the only ways to do a gay or bisexual character in it are either to make them stereotypes or have them do that irritating, "Have I told everyone I like guys in the past few days? No? Well, I do!" thing that's so common in shitty sitcoms. Sorry, but this is nonsense, along with the whole 'they're usually asexual' thing. WWE have just brought back Maryse on TV for the purpose of saying "Hey look, Miz is married to this attractive woman". Kevin Owens always goes on about his family. There was the whole Lana/Rusev/Ziggler feud. Vince perving on Divas. Most female valets have had implied relationships/attraction to their respective wrestlers. Every wedding angle ever done. There's plenty of ways to establish things like attraction and sexuality in wrestling that go on constantly. But nobody says to Owens "Yeah, you have a wife and kids, we know, god, stop mentioning your heterosexuality." People just only notice it when it's a non-straight sexuality. (And like 90% of the LGBT people I know love mentioning their sexuality, normally in pun form, I guess I live in a sitcom now.) And TNA actually got good praise and publicity for hiring an open gay wrestler, and they go and have him be every stereotype you can imagine rolled into one. I have gay friends, and they sure as heck as don't act like that. Holy Bi Erasure, Batman!
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 14, 2016 10:21:42 GMT -5
I don't even see how it's needed. The entire concept's stupid, since wrestling isn't about romance typically the only ways to do a gay or bisexual character in it are either to make them stereotypes or have them do that irritating, "Have I told everyone I like guys in the past few days? No? Well, I do!" thing that's so common in shitty sitcoms. Sorry, but this is nonsense, along with the whole 'they're usually asexual' thing. WWE have just brought back Maryse on TV for the purpose of saying "Hey look, Miz is married to this attractive woman". Kevin Owens always goes on about his family. There was the whole Lana/Rusev/Ziggler feud. Vince perving on Divas. Most female valets have had implied relationships/attraction to their respective wrestlers. Every wedding angle ever done. There's plenty of ways to establish things like attraction and sexuality in wrestling that go on constantly. But nobody says to Owens "Yeah, you have a wife and kids, we know, god, stop mentioning your heterosexuality." People just only notice it when it's a non-straight sexuality. (And like 90% of the LGBT people I know love mentioning their sexuality, normally in pun form, I guess I live in a sitcom now.) And TNA actually got good praise and publicity for hiring an open gay wrestler, and they go and have him be every stereotype you can imagine rolled into one. I have gay friends, and they sure as heck as don't act like that. Holy Bi Erasure, Batman! Bi-erasure; so ridiculous that even Glee, a supposedly pro-queer show across the board, does it.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2016 12:32:03 GMT -5
I don't even see how it's needed. The entire concept's stupid, since wrestling isn't about romance typically the only ways to do a gay or bisexual character in it are either to make them stereotypes or have them do that irritating, "Have I told everyone I like guys in the past few days? No? Well, I do!" thing that's so common in shitty sitcoms. Sorry, but this is nonsense, along with the whole 'they're usually asexual' thing. WWE have just brought back Maryse on TV for the purpose of saying "Hey look, Miz is married to this attractive woman". Kevin Owens always goes on about his family. There was the whole Lana/Rusev/Ziggler feud. Vince perving on Divas. Most female valets have had implied relationships/attraction to their respective wrestlers. Every wedding angle ever done. There's plenty of ways to establish things like attraction and sexuality in wrestling that go on constantly. But nobody says to Owens "Yeah, you have a wife and kids, we know, god, stop mentioning your heterosexuality." People just only notice it when it's a non-straight sexuality. (And like 90% of the LGBT people I know love mentioning their sexuality, normally in pun form, I guess I live in a sitcom now.) Yeah, there are cases of romance in wrestling, absolutely. It's just not the driving force of everything, or most things even, and there really isn't very much reason for someone to be gay to come up in a way related to Owens or Miz or whatever unless, like with Miz, you outright establish a boyfriend character to go along with them, or for Owens, it's somehow integral to the gimmick to be constantly mentioning it. I just don't see any real way, or point, to do such a thing without it coming across as completely forced and crammed in just for the sake of it. Unless I guess you have someone just bashing homosexuality in general and some established face takes issue with it and comes out that way but even then, really past the initial storyline don't really see how you could continue to make that a consistent facet of the character that really means something short of just plain having them and everyone they cross paths with constantly mention it or introducing some secondary gay character entirely for them to play off of.
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Post by Big Bad Kahuna on May 14, 2016 12:38:11 GMT -5
And TNA actually got good praise and publicity for hiring an open gay wrestler, and they go and have him be every stereotype you can imagine rolled into one. I have gay friends, and they sure as heck as don't act like that. I think that's what Bischoff and Hogan think gays/lesbians/bisexuals act like
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on May 14, 2016 16:49:08 GMT -5
I also remember reading the gimmick was Orlando idea,but dont have a source now.
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Ragnal
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Post by Ragnal on May 14, 2016 17:51:48 GMT -5
Didn't GLAAD actually praise the gimmick?
But yeah, when Orlando first popped up on the recording I watched I immediately thought to myself "Yep, this isn't going to go well for ANYONE".
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Post by kurtanglestumour on May 14, 2016 18:20:04 GMT -5
Why not have a gay tag team who wish to have a child, one of the knockouts agrees to be a dirtiest but her partner objects and goes after them saying there not man enough he jumps them etc eventually it leads to a show down where the gay team over come the odds prove there masculinity and win the day.
Then the knock out has a mid carriage which she blames her now former partner for. Starting a new fued
That's reveloutionary
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on May 14, 2016 18:40:04 GMT -5
I also remember reading the gimmick was Orlando idea,but dont have a source now. This is me repeating barely remembered news I read back in the day, but as I recall, Jordan was pitching it in his later days in the WWE, along with bringing his then(still?) boyfriend on the road with him, and trying to pitch him as part of the gimmick, and it was starting to grate on everyone's nerves. Now, remember, I'm repeating what I think I read way back when, so that may or may not be accurate.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 15, 2016 2:05:40 GMT -5
I also remember reading the gimmick was Orlando idea,but dont have a source now. This is me repeating barely remembered news I read back in the day, but as I recall, Jordan was pitching it in his later days in the WWE, along with bringing his then(still?) boyfriend on the road with him, and trying to pitch him as part of the gimmick, and it was starting to grate on everyone's nerves. Now, remember, I'm repeating what I think I read way back when, so that may or may not be accurate. He was, I also think the managers were dropped right away because Ric Flair scared the guy Orlando had away after a freak out and he berated the kid
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on May 15, 2016 8:15:33 GMT -5
Even without the stupid Bisexual/Gay stereotypes and the squirty-cream shit the gimmick was always doomed to fail because Orlando Jordan just isn't a good worker.
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Post by ________ has left the building on May 15, 2016 10:01:27 GMT -5
Didn't GLAAD actually praise the gimmick? But yeah, when Orlando first popped up on the recording I watched I immediately thought to myself "Yep, this isn't going to go well for ANYONE". They did when it was first announced about TNA having a bisexual wrestling character. GLADD was quiet after he start to dry hump The Pope and Samoa Joe.
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Ragnal
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Post by Ragnal on May 15, 2016 10:47:45 GMT -5
This is me repeating barely remembered news I read back in the day, but as I recall, Jordan was pitching it in his later days in the WWE, along with bringing his then(still?) boyfriend on the road with him, and trying to pitch him as part of the gimmick, and it was starting to grate on everyone's nerves. Now, remember, I'm repeating what I think I read way back when, so that may or may not be accurate. He was, I also think the managers were dropped right away because Ric Flair scared the guy Orlando had away after a freak out and he berated the kid If I remember right I think it was because OJ's boyfriend at the time was being lewd in a bar by offering shots from his stomach and Ric got upset at how unprofessional it was. Pot calling kettle black? Yeah, probably.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 15, 2016 11:34:26 GMT -5
He was, I also think the managers were dropped right away because Ric Flair scared the guy Orlando had away after a freak out and he berated the kid If I remember right I think it was because OJ's boyfriend at the time was being lewd in a bar by offering shots from his stomach and Ric got upset at how unprofessional it was. Pot calling kettle black? Yeah, probably. Damn right it was unprofessional, you wanna be a wrestler, you don't wear pants while you're being a drunk idiot.
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Post by Alexander The So-so on May 15, 2016 14:56:28 GMT -5
As a bi man, this gimmick is just absolutely baffling and infuriating, for one major reason. Derogatory gay heel gimmicks are, sadly, a dime a dozen in pro wrestling. But this gimmick was actually intended to be positive. And I can say from personal experience: this gimmick wasn't helpful or positive. Quite the opposite, this sort of thing hurts a lot more than it helps.
For LGBT kids who are coming out, there are a lot of causes for anxiety. One of them, in my opinion, doesn't get discussed enough: identity. Whether or not coming out about your sexuality means fundamentally changing who you are and how you behave.
Speaking for myself, this was the major issue for me, since I am the most non-stereotypical gay/bi guy I know. I'm into wrestling, martial arts, rock music, anime, and video games. I don't care about my appearance. I don't do casual sex or one-night-stands.
And yet, people like me grew up bombarded with extremely stereotypical media images about "positive" LGBT identity, that nonetheless don't speak to us. To put things in perspective: roughly around the same time Orlando Jordan was doing this gimmick, it was about the same time that Chris Crocker (the "leave Britney alone" guy) was having his 15 minutes of fame, and when "What What, In the Butt" was going viral.
I would see this kind of stuff and think to myself, "is this what I have to look forward to? Am I really going to have to become a Lady Gaga-obsessed, go-go-dancing, prissy, fashion-obsessed, promiscuous sex-crazed freakazoid?" Of course, eventually, as you grow older, you realize that no, that's not the case, and that who you're attracted to doesn't have to change anything about your identity. But for teenagers and college kids, especially, who are at that age when they're struggling to define their personal identity, this sort of thing can cause a lot of alienation and further aggravate their anxiety and depression.
So I have no idea how Orlando Jordan or anyone in their right mind thought that his pervy freak bisexual character would help anyone. As far as I'm concerned, it is the second worst treatment of the LGBT community in wrestling history (number one for me being when WWE made Kanyon do the Boy George impression. For very similar reasons as what I just laid out, only in that case it was worse, because they imposed it on a man who himself was struggling badly with his identity due to his sexuality, and I'm convinced that doing a gimmick like that helped push him over the edge).
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Post by Alice Syndrome on May 16, 2016 5:01:45 GMT -5
I blame Orlando himself. Didn't he pitch the same gimmick to WWE before he got released? Wait what? Why he chose the most humiliating and offensive gimmick? He should've known that he was not only going to embarrass himself but insult a whole community that didn't deserve it. Orlando Jordan, legitimate bisexual, somehow thought that this gimmick would actually be inspirational to bi kids and teens. Yes, the full one. Not the tined down one where he had a minor crush on his tag partner, but the squirt bottle of jizz one.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on May 16, 2016 5:05:32 GMT -5
Sorry, but this is nonsense, along with the whole 'they're usually asexual' thing. WWE have just brought back Maryse on TV for the purpose of saying "Hey look, Miz is married to this attractive woman". Kevin Owens always goes on about his family. There was the whole Lana/Rusev/Ziggler feud. Vince perving on Divas. Most female valets have had implied relationships/attraction to their respective wrestlers. Every wedding angle ever done. There's plenty of ways to establish things like attraction and sexuality in wrestling that go on constantly. But nobody says to Owens "Yeah, you have a wife and kids, we know, god, stop mentioning your heterosexuality." People just only notice it when it's a non-straight sexuality. (And like 90% of the LGBT people I know love mentioning their sexuality, normally in pun form, I guess I live in a sitcom now.) Holy Bi Erasure, Batman! Bi-erasure; so ridiculous that even Glee, a supposedly pro-queer show across the board, does it. Glee drinking game: watch the Rocky Horror episode and take a shot every time someone says "tranny" in the same episode that censored the word transsexual. If you have anything left from 3 bottles before you die of alcohol poisoning, my wife would like the rest.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on May 16, 2016 5:09:16 GMT -5
And for the trifecta: I'm not joking, the first segment aired the day after I first kissed a girl. I'm not even sure how I managed to work things out positively with THAT role model
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