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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jun 21, 2016 23:22:01 GMT -5
If the guy who was pretty much literally the backbone of TNA says that WWE guys and other tv guys got undue focus every time out regardless of merit, I'd tend to believe him. How is it even arguable when that dude is saying: "Yeah, this is how it was." ? No one is saying that isn't how it was. I'm just against the idea that "once you're in WWE, you have to make it in WWE, and if you don't make it, then you have to retire from the business because any other company that so much as googles your picture online is TEH BUSH LEAGUEZ". I mean, Mr. Anderson sucks now, but he was over in WWE as Mr. Kennedy, so why wouldn't any company push him?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2016 23:25:57 GMT -5
If the guy who was pretty much literally the backbone of TNA says that WWE guys and other tv guys got undue focus every time out regardless of merit, I'd tend to believe him. How is it even arguable when that dude is saying: "Yeah, this is how it was." ? No one is saying that isn't how it was. I'm just against the idea that "once you're in WWE, you have to make it in WWE, and if you don't make it, then you have to retire from the business because any other company that so much as googles your picture online is TEH BUSH LEAGUEZ". I mean, Mr. Anderson sucks now, but he was over in WWE as Mr. Kennedy, so why wouldn't any company push him? Nobody is saying otherwise. There is a difference though between, "Sure, let's push Mr. Anderson," and, "Let's bring in a past his prime Booker T, when he clearly doesn't give a shit about what he's doing here, and let him push guys backstage around, make up a belt for him, and constantly talk about how amazing he is and how maybe our multi-time TNA Champion AJ Styles can one day hope to be good enough to lick his boots." Or alternatively, "Let's go from constantly playing up the Knockouts division as the pinnacle of women's wrestling to talking about how now it's legitimized because Mickie James has decided to show her face here with everyone in the division immediately focusing on nothing but her."
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 21, 2016 23:27:11 GMT -5
If the guy who was pretty much literally the backbone of TNA says that WWE guys and other tv guys got undue focus every time out regardless of merit, I'd tend to believe him. How is it even arguable when that dude is saying: "Yeah, this is how it was." ? No one is saying that isn't how it was. I'm just against the idea that "once you're in WWE, you have to make it in WWE, and if you don't make it, then you have to retire from the business because any other company that so much as googles your picture online is TEH BUSH LEAGUEZ". I mean, Mr. Anderson sucks now, but he was over in WWE as Mr. Kennedy, so why wouldn't any company push him? No one is saying that people have to retire or that any other company is the bush league, except tna that is. People can make a nice living in the Indy circuit and in New Japan and ROH, just not in tna, tna is a cesspool. Regarding Mister Anderson, I guess no company will push him because he showed to work under the influence of drugs.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 21, 2016 23:33:12 GMT -5
If the guy who was pretty much literally the backbone of TNA says that WWE guys and other tv guys got undue focus every time out regardless of merit, I'd tend to believe him. How is it even arguable when that dude is saying: "Yeah, this is how it was." ? No one is saying that isn't how it was. I'm just against the idea that "once you're in WWE, you have to make it in WWE, and if you don't make it, then you have to retire from the business because any other company that so much as googles your picture online is TEH BUSH LEAGUEZ". I mean, Mr. Anderson sucks now, but he was over in WWE as Mr. Kennedy, so why wouldn't any company push him? But no one is saying your thing either. Approximately zero percent of people are saying that you have had to made it in WWE before going somewhere else and succeeding. Saying that guys shouldn't be pushed above in company guys solely because they were in the big leagues (and again, that's inarguable, they were) =/= guys shouldn't be hired elsewhere. You're making an argument that no one else is debating.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Jun 21, 2016 23:40:54 GMT -5
If the guy who was pretty much literally the backbone of TNA says that WWE guys and other tv guys got undue focus every time out regardless of merit, I'd tend to believe him. How is it even arguable when that dude is saying: "Yeah, this is how it was." ? No one is saying that isn't how it was. I'm just against the idea that "once you're in WWE, you have to make it in WWE, and if you don't make it, then you have to retire from the business because any other company that so much as googles your picture online is TEH BUSH LEAGUEZ". I mean, Mr. Anderson sucks now, but he was over in WWE as Mr. Kennedy, so why wouldn't any company push him? Quite literally, no one is making that argument except YOU. You are the only one to have the idea that people want WWE guys to never get another shot. You. You're letting your baseless paranoia for the people you like and others cannot stand cloud what is actually happening. You are creating the bullshit ideas you are rallying against and causing so many to hate these people. You are too busy creating these nonexistent problems to see that you're being your own worst enemy. Once again, no one is saying that Ryback or Cody Rhodes or Curt Hawkins or Zack Ryder or Derrick Bateman or Victoria or Skirt Tiffany or Who The f*** Ever should never get another shot. That is you. That is you creating this idea. What AJ Styles and others are saying is don't throw them away because someone else had a cup of coffee in WWE. They were living the very issues you argue against, they were dumped because someone with a name came in and took their spot. They lost their spots because the owner of the company was a mark for WWE guys. The lost their spot because Dixie Carter acted like you are in all this.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Jun 21, 2016 23:44:35 GMT -5
TNA has always been run like a money mark operation. The problem with TNA is that they didn't view their own guys as equals of the WWE/WCW hasbeens that they would bring in. As such they never really used the WWE cast offs to put over any of the TNA regulars, or when they did it was quickly followed by them bringing in another WWE cast off guy who went over the TNA guy. That's really the sad tale of Styles' career. TNA never could figure out if he was "The Man" or if he was some up and coming youngster. Eventually he left the Titanic right as it hit the Spike TV iceberg. They never treated him as "The man", he was always the future... and he'd be the man in like 2 years. Even after winning all the titles, and being the longest reigning world champion. He was still never really treated as the focus and was that young up and comer! At absolute best they treated him as the person that built the X-division... but he was never the focus of hte overall company despite the fans basically relating AJ Styles to TNA. Let us never forget, she literally said AJ was just coming into his own in his last year there. Dixie gonna Dixie.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 22, 2016 0:44:07 GMT -5
They never treated him as "The man", he was always the future... and he'd be the man in like 2 years. Even after winning all the titles, and being the longest reigning world champion. He was still never really treated as the focus and was that young up and comer! At absolute best they treated him as the person that built the X-division... but he was never the focus of hte overall company despite the fans basically relating AJ Styles to TNA. Let us never forget, she literally said AJ was just coming into his own in his last year there. Dixie gonna Dixie. Funnily enough, they offered a hall of fame induction to AJ a short time later. He went from coming into his own to a hall of famer just like that??? I don't get why Dixie thinks anyone would ever believe her lies and bullshit. AJ had to feel great turning down her shit offer for her fake shit bootleg hall of fame with the fake rolexes and cheap dinner.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Jun 22, 2016 0:48:27 GMT -5
If the guy who was pretty much literally the backbone of TNA says that WWE guys and other tv guys got undue focus every time out regardless of merit, I'd tend to believe him. How is it even arguable when that dude is saying: "Yeah, this is how it was." ? No one is saying that isn't how it was. I'm just against the idea that "once you're in WWE, you have to make it in WWE, and if you don't make it, then you have to retire from the business because any other company that so much as googles your picture online is TEH BUSH LEAGUEZ". That is not an idea that anybody has though. Where have you seen that posted?
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 22, 2016 5:31:07 GMT -5
I think a good way to illustrate the problem with TNA is to look at Johnny Mundo in Lucha Underground. The dude spent years in WWE, had nine title reigns, and is just in general an accomplished midcarder who some people wanted to see get more. And now in LU he's getting that more as one of their more pushed guys. It's a higher profile than he was ever likely to get in WWE, but he's also still rocking the same look he had in WWE and uses the same taunt and shit.
But he's treated like a Lucha Underground guy. It's not "guy who held nine belts in WWE Johnny Mundo", it's not "Johnny Mundo, who ties for the record of most tag team title reigns in 'that company up North'". He's not forming a stable of disgruntled former WWE dudes who talk about how they were "bigger somewhere else". It's "here is Johnny Mundo look at how talented he is" and talking about his storylines within Lucha Underground. That presentation is a big difference in the perception that he was hired because he is mad talented and not because he's a face they can stick on a TV bumper and hope people remember him. It's a night and day difference from what TNA does.
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Post by corndog on Jun 22, 2016 22:18:22 GMT -5
I think a good way to illustrate the problem with TNA is to look at Johnny Mundo in Lucha Underground. The dude spent years in WWE, had nine title reigns, and is just in general an accomplished midcarder who some people wanted to see get more. And now in LU he's getting that more as one of their more pushed guys. It's a higher profile than he was ever likely to get in WWE, but he's also still rocking the same look he had in WWE and uses the same taunt and shit. But he's treated like a Lucha Underground guy. It's not "guy who held nine belts in WWE Johnny Mundo", it's not "Johnny Mundo, who ties for the record of most tag team title reigns in 'that company up North'". He's not forming a stable of disgruntled former WWE dudes who talk about how they were "bigger somewhere else". It's "here is Johnny Mundo look at how talented he is" and talking about his storylines within Lucha Underground. That presentation is a big difference in the perception that he was hired because he is mad talented and not because he's a face they can stick on a TV bumper and hope people remember him. It's a night and day difference from what TNA does. Great post and point. TNA is pretty much the only current organization that doesn't make people who were stars somewhere else, re-establish themselves. As you said, they book them as a former WWE wrestler and revolve a lot of their character around that. It's incredibly bush league and really just lets you know that WWE is the major leagues and TNA is the minors. Which is why most companies don't book like that and treat themselves as separate entities.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jun 23, 2016 1:04:10 GMT -5
I think a good way to illustrate the problem with TNA is to look at Johnny Mundo in Lucha Underground. The dude spent years in WWE, had nine title reigns, and is just in general an accomplished midcarder who some people wanted to see get more. And now in LU he's getting that more as one of their more pushed guys. It's a higher profile than he was ever likely to get in WWE, but he's also still rocking the same look he had in WWE and uses the same taunt and shit. But he's treated like a Lucha Underground guy. It's not "guy who held nine belts in WWE Johnny Mundo", it's not "Johnny Mundo, who ties for the record of most tag team title reigns in 'that company up North'". He's not forming a stable of disgruntled former WWE dudes who talk about how they were "bigger somewhere else". It's "here is Johnny Mundo look at how talented he is" and talking about his storylines within Lucha Underground. That presentation is a big difference in the perception that he was hired because he is mad talented and not because he's a face they can stick on a TV bumper and hope people remember him. It's a night and day difference from what TNA does. Great post and point. TNA is pretty much the only current organization that doesn't make people who were stars somewhere else, re-establish themselves. As you said, they book them as a former WWE wrestler and revolve a lot of their character around that. It's incredibly bush league and really just lets you know that WWE is the major leagues and TNA is the minors. Which is why most companies don't book like that and treat themselves as separate entities. But when they do, you get Orlando Jordan.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 23, 2016 9:21:00 GMT -5
Yeah, the point here is absolutely not that TNA should never have signed WWE guys. I do recall plenty of people over the years going on about "why do they keep signing WWE rejects?!", but at the same time I don't think there are many people who were faulting them for bringing in Angle, Christian, Rhino, the Dudleys, and a decent handful of other established guys; some were brought in to get eyes on the product when it was still young, others because they were still in a money making phase of their career and worth bringing in for a good run. However, where I think TNA gets universally and deservedly panned is how far they went with that. Kurt Angle made all the sense in the world to sign; Kurt Angle going over Samoa Joe in his first big match in TNA and ending Joe's unbeaten streak made no sense whatsoever (and that's ignoring the insanity of doing Joe vs. Angle friggin' one month or so into Kurt's time in the company). Booker T coming in wasn't a terrible idea in the abstract; it got silly, though, when it became clear that Booker wasn't going to be used to put anybody over. There were a lot of other short term runs for guys and gals who never even made a name for themselves in WWE, yet still got brought in and pushed for a bit, but they'd flame out and be gone in a flash, while the TNA "originals" were still stuck at square one, no progress made for anybody (see: Shannon Moore, guys like that). When you bring guys like that in, you need to have a purpose in mind: typically, the purposes are either that you think the big ticket guy still has a money-drawing run in him (Angle, Hardy, Christian); that they're young enough and just didn't get enough of a chance in WWE to show what you think are their much better talents because you've scouted them well and know they have a lot to offer (EC3, Galloway); because you think they have clout with the audience and letting younger talent go over them would prove a nice boost to their image (how guys like Booker or RVD should've been used); or, you could do it for the reason TNA seemed to do it most often - because you're so desperate to put eyeballs on your young show and have convinced yourself that the way to do it is to put on "familiar faces", but you don't really have a rhyme or reason for why you're bringing them in in the first place. To me, that's the big issue: TNA would bring all these guys in, and where would all the stuff they did lead? Kevin Nash served a useful role as a charismatic voice that got featured with the X Division guys...but where was the eventual payoff to, say, his alliance with Alex Shelley and Austin Starr? Val Venis wasn't a completely unjustifiable signing, but you had him come in and beat Christopher freaking Daniels on pay per view...and then he was gone! What was the point? Then it just compounds when you take the guys who WERE signed for good reasons like mentioned above, but use them in ways that derail, slow down, or otherwise hamper your more dynamic talent that could take you to the next level (Angle ending Joe's streak, Hardy ending Aries' title reign, RVD beating AJ for the belt on a random Impact, Eric Young never really being put over in all his interactions with the former nWo, Motor City Machine Guns never definitely dethroning the Dudleys as the top team in the company, never figuring out what to do with LAX post-Konnan, not capitalizing on Jay Lethal's promos with Ric Flair, etc.). By the time the equation started to balance a bit it was already around 2012, and the end of the road was nigh. It will, for me, forever go down as TNA's fatal flaw: they got caught up in "let's sign so-and-so because they'll put eyeballs on the product" (never happened), and in the process never actually built their own identity that people could point to and say "THAT is TNA". They never treated him as "The man", he was always the future... and he'd be the man in like 2 years. Even after winning all the titles, and being the longest reigning world champion. He was still never really treated as the focus and was that young up and comer! At absolute best they treated him as the person that built the X-division... but he was never the focus of hte overall company despite the fans basically relating AJ Styles to TNA. Let us never forget, she literally said AJ was just coming into his own in his last year there. Dixie gonna Dixie. The only benefit out of the doubt I'll give her on that is that it kind of was that last year or so that AJ really nailed what his character going forward was going to be, from his promos getting better to his overall demeanor to his ring gear to all the little details he added that we now mostly associate with his Bullet Club run. That said...she is a dunce who didn't realize that AJ was ready to be pushed as the company's top star as early as freaking 2005.
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Post by H-Virus on Jun 25, 2016 18:30:37 GMT -5
Honestly, I think EC3 was probably the best example of a WWE castoff being brought in to TNA and being utilized properly, and the reason why was because he was one of the few WWE guys to be repackaged before he even debuted. Kurt Angle, Jeff Hardy, Christian, Mr Anderson, Booker T, The Dudleys, Kevin Nash, Val Venis, all of them came into TNA with the same gimmicks and personalities as they had when they left WWE. Some of them (Hardy, Bully Ray) reimagined themselves later on to great success, but for the most part, they were all just "Former WWE Superstar: _____________".
EC3, on the other hand, wasn't brought in as "Former NXT Star: Derrick Bateman", he was brought in as "Dixie's Spoiled Nephew: Ethan Carter III". So not only was he stripped of his connection to WWE, he was also presented with a realistic reason for why he should be pushed to the top ahead of other, more deserving guys: Nepotism, the perfect gimmick for a new top heel. The fact that he was also talented enough to carry himself in the ring and on the mic, unlike other acts of true nepotism like Garret Bischoff, was a major benefit as well.
Hell, for another example, look back at D'angelo Dinero. His Pope gimmick was on fire when he first entered the company, and people were actually calling for him to become TNA World Champion, something I can't remember anybody saying when he was in WWE. Then they put him in that goofy ass feud with Abyss, turned him heel and put him in an even goofier ass feud with Samoa Joe, and that was pretty much the end of that story.
Of course, for instances where repackaging doesn't always work, see Orlando Jordan. Full stop.
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Post by Ted Sheckler on Jun 26, 2016 23:24:36 GMT -5
Honestly TNA cannot be faulted for bringing in the biggest names of wrestling. The likes of Booker T, Rob Van Dam and others may have been lazy but they still offer a "Oh wow, lets go see them" effect on fans in local towns and those fans don't care if they get a five star match they're happy with a scissor kick, a frog splash and an autograph.
Comparison I like to make is if you're the Jacksonville Jaguars and a star player from the Patriots becomes available do you simply give him a miss because he's from there or do you try and grab him? I think most sports around the world would try and grab a star player and TNA did the same when they grabbed Booker, Angle, Sting, Van Dam, Steiner etc etc. I don't even have an issue with TNA grabbing guys or girls who were solid hands in WWE. Guys like Chavo, Kendrick, Kid Kash etc are fine as well.
I also have no issue with TNA taking an underutilised talent such as an EC3 and attempting to make a star out of them. The problem I have which most of you seem to agree with is when they take a guy simply because he was in WWE and put him on the roster. A GREAT example was a couple years back when Ezekiel Jackson and Gene Snitsky randomly joined Team Dixie for three weeks and left the company never to be seen again.
Those guys were legitimately hired simply because Dixie liked watching them on TV that's all it is. She (Or her people) could have easily found two big guys to play henchman for probably a quarter of the price.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jun 27, 2016 0:01:40 GMT -5
^i think you gotta give Dixie credit for Big Zeke and Snitsky. Weren't they intentionally meant to be short term? Weren't they doing some kind of ECW rehash with Dixie taking the piss out of herself by bringing in two WWECW guys specifically to put over the "real extreme guys"?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 27, 2016 0:11:28 GMT -5
^i think you gotta give Dixie credit for Big Zeke and Snitsky. Weren't they intentionally meant to be short term? Weren't they doing some kind of ECW rehash with Dixie taking the piss out of herself by bringing in two WWECW guys specifically to put over the "real extreme guys"? Give credit is not the phrase of wording I would use regarding Dixie and that Bullshit.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 27, 2016 0:36:00 GMT -5
^i think you gotta give Dixie credit for Big Zeke and Snitsky. Weren't they intentionally meant to be short term? Weren't they doing some kind of ECW rehash with Dixie taking the piss out of herself by bringing in two WWECW guys specifically to put over the "real extreme guys"? Put over the same exteme guys who were known for their ECW and WWE exposure? Rehashing the Dudley gimmick of puting women through tables?
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Post by benstudd on Jun 28, 2016 22:18:22 GMT -5
TNA has always been run like a money mark operation. The problem with TNA is that they didn't view their own guys as equals of the WWE/WCW hasbeens that they would bring in. As such they never really used the WWE cast offs to put over any of the TNA regulars, or when they did it was quickly followed by them bringing in another WWE cast off guy who went over the TNA guy. That's really the sad tale of Styles' career. TNA never could figure out if he was "The Man" or if he was some up and coming youngster. Eventually he left the Titanic right as it hit the Spike TV iceberg. AJ was handled so badly most of the time that the fans in Orlando would sometime cheer for the big WWE/WCW guys over him. I kid you not it would sting me the f*** out every time. It feels like only when he was about to leave he had his just due from management and reaction from the fans. Another thing about this subject is that I think having so many bookers in management that have been with WWE and WCW, they think they know better cause they come from more successful promotions and they will always view the former WWE/WCW guys as better and more over. An example of this Bruce Prichards had an argument with Austin Aries who was Champ in 2012 that Hardy had to go over at BFG cause he was more over. Aries kept saying, you're wrong you are gonna see in the audience that at least half the people will cheer for me. Then when the show happened and it was way more than half that was rooting for A Double. And they booed the Hell out of the title change.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jun 28, 2016 22:32:52 GMT -5
^i think you gotta give Dixie credit for Big Zeke and Snitsky. Weren't they intentionally meant to be short term? Weren't they doing some kind of ECW rehash with Dixie taking the piss out of herself by bringing in two WWECW guys specifically to put over the "real extreme guys"? Put over the same exteme guys who were known for their ECW and WWE exposure? Rehashing the Dudley gimmick of puting women through tables? and again The ECW Guys that A. most of couldn't use their famous names and had shitty knock offs. (that some openly mocked like Balls who was surprised his name was apparently Kahoneys) B. Were names 13 years earlier... c. weren't even allowed to say Extreme Championship Wrestling, or reference the letters ECW or do anything specifically mentioning ECW. and again... Even if Zeke and Snitsky were hired "As a joke" against the ECW guys... it's still in response to hiring people that MADE THEIR NAMES IN ANOTHER COMPANY 13 YEARS AGO.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 28, 2016 22:53:05 GMT -5
^i think you gotta give Dixie credit for Big Zeke and Snitsky. Weren't they intentionally meant to be short term? Weren't they doing some kind of ECW rehash with Dixie taking the piss out of herself by bringing in two WWECW guys specifically to put over the "real extreme guys"? A program that only ever put over guys who Dixie had hired due to their fame from other companies? That feeds into everything that AJ was saying how can we give them credit for that. She put on a second storyline built around the idea of "ECW was so great and I'm putting it over my company that currently exists".
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