Are Triple H & NXT bad for the wrestling business?

[lizzurd]

I saw this being discussed on reddit (it quickly descended into name calling and downvotes but that's par for the reddit course) and thought it could make for an interesting debate. The argument goes that HHH signing a bunch of big names from the indies and Japan ("killing the indies!") will harm the wrestling business as a whole in a similar way that Vince's cable deals and talent contracts arguably "killed the territories" back in the 80's.

Some are also saying that WWE having to sign all these ex-TNA, NJPW, and big name indy guys to pump up NXT reflects poorly on the Performance Center's ability to train new talent.

Thoughts?

[gr1990]

They're not, and never will be, killing the indies, because even WWE has a limit to its finances, and definitely a limit to its roster spaces. New stars will always be created on the indies, people will always leave WWE and return to the indy circuit, it's self-replenishing. In fact, WWE acknowledging the 'minor leagues' and treating people's achievements there as a big deal is arguably boosting the wider wrestling business. They have no competition anyway, so there's nothing wrong with the indies being a breeding ground for WWE stars of the future, it's how a lot of people have been wishing the business would be for years. You're more likely to go to your local indy show if you see it as where stars are born rather than a poor relation to what you watch on TV.

I'm more saddened about the fact that NXT seems content to be this indy superfed now when it built its reputation on creating its own stars, either training people from scratch or taking lesser-known indy talents and giving them the extra training and the gimmick to make them into stars. Now they're just signing 35-year-old indy vets, saying 'do what you've always done' and sending them out there. NXT is losing its identity and its creativity, WWE's homegrown talent is having its path blocked by 'name' talent who are always going to get the nod when you've only got an hour of TV each week, and the whole thing has become very dry and lazy.

[Deleted]

NXT isn't big enough to make a difference one way or the other.

Triple H, probably. I think he's probably the main reason for the shift toward more NWA-ish booking with the always a heel on top, things of substance very rarely happen move in recent years and I find that way more insufferable than shit like the guest host era.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Vince was the guy who was lucky and positioned well enough to get national cable deals, but if he hadn't done it someone else would have, and the territories as they were just weren't going to last forever. There was going to be nationally and internationally broadcast wrestling on cable from somewhere, and with the advent of things like the internet, the NWA cutting up the country just wasn't ever going to pan out. The system was going to die anyway, and when it went under it gave birth to wrestling companies that ran certain parts of the country but had a looser sense of walled off internal continuity and could use tapes and later DVDs to help bolster ratings. If Vince hadn't done it then someone else would have because wrestling is a greedy, skeevy business, and anyone with their head on straight knew the solution was to land a cable deal and start devouring the competition. And honestly, I'd say the weakening of the NWA's power and the rise of unaffiliated indies probably did more good than bad for the scene.

Much the same way, I don't think Triple H can actually kill off the indies; there's other names, other stars, other guys who will step into the vacuum left by losing names like Steen, Generico, and Styles. WWE pulled both guys from the semi-main of Wrestle Kingdom out from under New Japan the very next day and the company is still doing fine.

As for NXT itself, yes the TV time that homegrown guys get is a little too thin right now, but the problem with "its identity" is that it's no longer something being run out of a warehouse and running local shows; it's touring the US, been to the UK multiple times now, and you just can't make money on a national tour with a bunch of guys who are still learning everything. You need names for that, you need veterans, and it does inspire a higher level of competency needed. WWE and its audience are becoming a lot more focused on ringwork, and we're seeing guys who come up to full-time NXT TV pushes who are much more seasoned than they once were. If this were 2007, Elias Samson would be on Smackdown by now.

But regardless of how you feel about the balance of homegrown vs. indie on NXT, to say that what they're doing is going to kill the indies/is on the whole bad for wrestling is just alarmist nonsense.

[Sephiroth]

I would argue that with NXT Triple H has established a very modern kind of formula that should serve as a blueprint for other promotions in the future.

[cool]

I'd say Dixie Carter and TNA are bad for the business, Not HHH or NXT.

[jagilki]

Of course NXT and Triple H aren....

Oh wait.

Triple H.

BAD RRRRAR BAAAAAAAAD

*Gathers Pitchtorches and Forks.*

[mrbananagrabber]

If anything it'll drive more casual viewers to maybe check out independent wrestling. With WWE now openly discussing (and in Zayn/Owens and Balor/Nakumura, building their own storylines from) indie wrestling, and that their top new stars all came from other companies, it might make someone who only thinks of WWE as wrestling (and I count myself in with that) want to check out an indie show or DVD.

[mrbananagrabber]

Jul 17, 2016 6:51:00 GMT -5 cool said:

I'd say Dixie Carter and TNA are bad for the business, Not HHH or NXT.

I agree. Shady business practises, letting guys wrestle with concussions, relaxed drug policies and hiring Grado are all things that need to be stamped out.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Jul 17, 2016 6:43:30 GMT -5 Sephiroth said:

I would argue that with NXT Triple H has established a very modern kind of formula that should serve as a blueprint for other promotions in the future.

NXT would last 2 maybe 3 shows without the WWE behind it as it's losing money hand over fist even with good attendances at live events they don't have to compensate the talent for. Draw 500, draw 5000, most of the roster are still paid in the $25-30,000 range unless they were already a big name coming in.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Jul 17, 2016 7:17:06 GMT -5 mrbananagrabber said:

If anything it'll drive more casual viewers to maybe check out independent wrestling. With WWE now openly discussing (and in Zayn/Owens and Balor/Nakumura, building their own storylines from) indie wrestling, and that their top new stars all came from other companies, it might make someone who only thinks of WWE as wrestling (and I count myself in with that) want to check out an indie show or DVD.

Why would NXT benefit the Indy scene when the success of indy darlings like Punk and Bryan in the WWE didn't? NXT is indy wrestling for hipsters, a one stop shop for people who want the best of the indy scene without having to lower themselves to actually paying to attend a show in a small venue or watch an event recorded with sub WWE production values or in a foreign language. The thousands of people attending NXT aren't going off to support their local indy or Ring of Honour after the show, they're watching it instead of, and all the WWE are doing is taking a bigger slice of an ever shrinking pie and people are deluding themselves it's a good thing because 'indy names and workrate!'.

I'm not sure NXT will be as well regarded in 2-3 years time when they and their relationship with Evolve starts damaging RoH, but we'll see.

[corndog]

Jul 17, 2016 7:42:44 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

Jul 17, 2016 7:17:06 GMT -5 mrbananagrabber said:

If anything it'll drive more casual viewers to maybe check out independent wrestling. With WWE now openly discussing (and in Zayn/Owens and Balor/Nakumura, building their own storylines from) indie wrestling, and that their top new stars all came from other companies, it might make someone who only thinks of WWE as wrestling (and I count myself in with that) want to check out an indie show or DVD.

Why would NXT benefit the Indy scene when the success of indy darlings like Punk and Bryan in the WWE didn't? NXT is indy wrestling for hipsters, a one stop shop for people who want the best of the indy scene without having to lower themselves to actually paying to attend a show in a small venue or watch an event recorded with sub WWE production values or in a foreign language. The thousands of people attending NXT aren't going off to support their local indy or Ring of Honour after the show, they're watching it instead of, and all the WWE are doing is taking a bigger slice of an ever shrinking pie and people are deluding themselves it's a good thing because 'indy names and workrate!'.

I'm not sure NXT will be as well regarded in 2-3 years time when they and their relationship with Evolve starts damaging RoH, but we'll see.

Considering some of the NXT talent, like Gargano and Ciampa, still work the indy scene, I don't see how it can't help the indies. As far as ROH is concerned, yeah WWE completely strip mined their talent, but they somehow didn't lose any business. So I think giving them recognition evened things out.

Also, I know this isn't NXT, but it's HHH's doing, do you not think the CWC will help the indies?

[Kevin Hamilton]

It's a one word answer, but it's the correct one: no.

[cabbageboy]

I think the bigger question is whether or not signing various guys from the indies and overseas is anything that will actually help WWE's bottom line or ratings. If anything it might produce a product that a lot of fans don't understand or care about. As far as indies go, I don't think WWE views them as a threat the way Vince viewed the territories of the 80s. It was inevitable that the bigger promotions back then would try and consolidate power. Gagne was doing it by expanding into the west coast. Crockett did it by expanding into GA, FL, and the midwest. Vince went nationwide. In an era of cable TV staying regional wasn't a viable idea. But now? Why would WWE fear a bunch of indie promoters? If anything WWE has taken steps to semi work with these groups to develop talent. Having someone signed by WWE can only make a smaller company look good and lead to that indie signing their own guys at a faster rate.

That said, these Evolve type feds need to realize what wrecked what was left of the 1990s smaller fed scene and that was getting too cozy with Vince and bringing in WWE stars. It wrecked the USWA and SMW in the long run, since the WWE guys popped a crowd but then gates cratered without The Undertaker or Savage, or whoever.

[2coldMack is even more baffled]

Eventually, yeah. HHH wants to be Vince 2.0, and I believe a part of that for him is controlling, at the very least, pro wrestling in North America, down to the root. EVOLVE has already out and out stated that they're changing the way they do things and the people that they book to appeal to the WWE's process, how long till others follow suit?

[A Platypus Rave]

Nope.

and There are two NXT's

there is the touring TV brand and the performance center brand.

To use Baseball terms The PC Brand is like AA to TV NXT's AAA

and while they have a lot of former indy and Japanese stand outs on the TV brand at the moment they also have people like.

Alexa Bliss, Gable and Jordan, the Revival, Tye Dillenger, teh Authors of Pain, Elias Samson, Mojo Rowley... etc. etc.

that make TV on a pretty regular basis.

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

Jul 17, 2016 4:00:59 GMT -5 lizzurd said:

I saw this being discussed on reddit (it quickly descended into name calling and downvotes but that's par for the reddit course) and thought it could make for an interesting debate. The argument goes that HHH signing a bunch of big names from the indies and Japan ("killing the indies!") will harm the wrestling business as a whole in a similar way that Vince's cable deals and talent contracts arguably "killed the territories" back in the 80's.

Some are also saying that WWE having to sign all these ex-TNA, NJPW, and big name indy guys to pump up NXT reflects poorly on the Performance Center's ability to train new talent.

Thoughts?

Nope, Most wrestlers goals is to make it in the WWE in the first place and make a living which is hard to do in the indies unless your good enough to that you could be in the WWE radar. EX TNA guys is laughable because TNA is in such horrible shape. They left for good reason and for them are being used way better then how TNA had been using them. The WWE signing the best workers is what you are supposed to do. You always look for the best talent to do the job, which is having the best matches and the abilities to entertain the fans. I don't think signing them reflects the Performance center at all. It much harder to find a person who is a natural at wrestling and most wrestlers needs years of training period before they could be in the WWE or NXT even. Kurt Angle when I went to his Q&A a few weeks ago said most wrestlers needs 5 years at less unless you are a rare case of talent. Like himself or Brock for example. Angle admit he was in the main roster 6 months end but had no idea why because he didn't knew what he was doing and had to allow the people he worked with to tell him what to do because he still had no idea how to call spots and ext.

[abjordans]

The performance center is still training great athletes from the ground up and young indy wrestlers that need seasoning. NXt is also taking ready for prime time vets and introducing them to the WWE audience and style of doing things. It is the best of both worlds.

[Surfer Sandman]

Jul 17, 2016 7:42:44 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

Jul 17, 2016 7:17:06 GMT -5 mrbananagrabber said:

If anything it'll drive more casual viewers to maybe check out independent wrestling. With WWE now openly discussing (and in Zayn/Owens and Balor/Nakumura, building their own storylines from) indie wrestling, and that their top new stars all came from other companies, it might make someone who only thinks of WWE as wrestling (and I count myself in with that) want to check out an indie show or DVD.

Why would NXT benefit the Indy scene when the success of indy darlings like Punk and Bryan in the WWE didn't? NXT is indy wrestling for hipsters, a one stop shop for people who want the best of the indy scene without having to lower themselves to actually paying to attend a show in a small venue or watch an event recorded with sub WWE production values or in a foreign language. The thousands of people attending NXT aren't going off to support their local indy or Ring of Honour after the show, they're watching it instead of, and all the WWE are doing is taking a bigger slice of an ever shrinking pie and people are deluding themselves it's a good thing because 'indy names and workrate!'.

I'm not sure NXT will be as well regarded in 2-3 years time when they and their relationship with Evolve starts damaging RoH, but we'll see.

I don't appreciate you saying that NXT is "indie wrestling for hipsters". I am a long-time wrestling fan and I honestly feel that NXT is better than the main roster at times. My lack of exposure to the indies comes from the inability to understand the commentary. Without competent commentary, I'm pretty much lost in the match (which makes RAW painful to watch unmuted). Many indie DVDs do not have subtitles. This is changing now though (LU is subtitled on iTunes).

[Cyno]

"Indy wrestling for hipsters" is a weird thing to call NXT when indy wrestling itself is way more hipster when you think about it.

"Oh, you watch NXT? I'd rather watch (inset indy fed here). You've probably never heard of it."