魔界5号
Hank Scorpio
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Post by 魔界5号 on Jul 25, 2016 17:58:24 GMT -5
Stop booking everything to make New Japan look so strong because Delirious is so desperate to keep Gedo happy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 18:00:31 GMT -5
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I've only had a passing glance at the show, but I've given it a chance a few times because they do feature wrestlers I like.
1) No real identity. Sure they're arguably the biggest independent promotion in the US, but they don't seem to have any real identifiable brand. Everything from the production to the logo to the music feels 12 years in the past and makes the whole show very blase' & dated to me.
2) Commentary is horrible. Just flat out horrible every time I watch it. They come off very carny and annoying most of the time and often sexualize the valets in a way that just makes me roll my eyes. Like, is this show for 11 year olds or something?
They basically need a hook or a gimmick or a mantra or SOMETHING to produce their shows around.
LU is the grindhouse lucha-sploitation show. WWE is the "circus" or Barnum & Bailey of wrestling. TNA is apparently a walking in-joke of a wrestling show now.
Even some non-televised indies have a pseudo theme to work around - I know these shows aren't as successful as RoH, but I mean they have a clear, identifiable theme. Progress is the "british punk rock" show Chikara is the "living comic book" show PWG - well, PWG is honestly the hipster show at this point (but in a good way).
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Post by Rudy Gobert Fadeaway on Jul 25, 2016 18:37:36 GMT -5
One of the reasons I haven't been interested to watch in awhile is because it looks exactly the same as it did when I lost interest. Like, when I heard that Whitmer vs. Corino was still going on as of last month I nearly f***ing died.
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Post by Starshine on Jul 25, 2016 18:57:57 GMT -5
They need to get off New Japan's dick. It's the business equivalent of an abusive relationship. You know as soon as NJ don't need ROH, they'll be kicked to the curb and have nothing to show for it. In the last two years, who have been the drawing talents? The answer is the New Japan guys. ROH has done nothing to utilise them in order to help bolster their own potential stars. So we're stuck in this quandry where Jay Lethal is almost champion by default since he has no real competition in the top spot.
Go back to ROH's better years and there were always a handful of guys they could rely on to carry a show. Now they've got almost no one, and are losing what little they have left in buckets. They need to attract more big time talent and commit to pushing them. They don't have any other option. If things keep moving in their current direction there might not be an ROH left in too long.
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jul 25, 2016 19:59:11 GMT -5
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I've only had a passing glance at the show, but I've given it a chance a few times because they do feature wrestlers I like. 1) No real identity. Sure they're arguably the biggest independent promotion in the US, but they don't seem to have any real identifiable brand. Everything from the production to the logo to the music feels 12 years in the past and makes the whole show very blase' & dated to me. 2) Commentary is horrible. Just flat out horrible every time I watch it. They come off very carny and annoying most of the time and often sexualize the valets in a way that just makes me roll my eyes. Like, is this show for 11 year olds or something? They basically need a hook or a gimmick or a mantra or SOMETHING to produce their shows around. LU is the grindhouse lucha-sploitation show. WWE is the "circus" or Barnum & Bailey of wrestling. TNA is apparently a walking in-joke of a wrestling show now. Even some non-televised indies have a pseudo theme to work around - I know these shows aren't as successful as RoH, but I mean they have a clear, identifiable theme. Progress is the "british punk rock" show Chikara is the "living comic book" show PWG - well, PWG is honestly the hipster show at this point (but in a good way). I haven't watched ROH in years but I totally agree with these points. ROH was all about the wrestling. Honestly they don't really have a strangle on the pure wrestling market like they used to. NXT has the potential to put a nail in ROH's coffin. If I were a newer wrestling fan I wouldn't give a damn about ROH. The only thing that could save them from mediocrity would be if CM Punk "purchased" the company and became the main star.
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Post by Crow Dust on Jul 25, 2016 20:43:09 GMT -5
They could try not being WWE lite.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 26, 2016 4:53:23 GMT -5
Beg Roddy to come back.
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Post by ronnie2hotty on Jul 26, 2016 8:20:50 GMT -5
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I've only had a passing glance at the show, but I've given it a chance a few times because they do feature wrestlers I like. 1) No real identity. Sure they're arguably the biggest independent promotion in the US, but they don't seem to have any real identifiable brand. Everything from the production to the logo to the music feels 12 years in the past and makes the whole show very blase' & dated to me. 2) Commentary is horrible. Just flat out horrible every time I watch it. They come off very carny and annoying most of the time and often sexualize the valets in a way that just makes me roll my eyes. Like, is this show for 11 year olds or something? They basically need a hook or a gimmick or a mantra or SOMETHING to produce their shows around. LU is the grindhouse lucha-sploitation show. WWE is the "circus" or Barnum & Bailey of wrestling. TNA is apparently a walking in-joke of a wrestling show now. Even some non-televised indies have a pseudo theme to work around - I know these shows aren't as successful as RoH, but I mean they have a clear, identifiable theme. Progress is the "british punk rock" show Chikara is the "living comic book" show PWG - well, PWG is honestly the hipster show at this point (but in a good way). This. 100% this. I loosely followed ROH from inception to about 2005/2006ish. Then regularly followed it from about the time Danielson won the title to 2008 when Gabe was fired. I've been really trying to get back into it and catch up from some of the good stuff I missed from 2009 to present, but some of todays stuff is hard to get into. It's not that it's bad, because it's not. It's just not as good as it used to be. With a limited amount of free time and disposable income, ROH is just not a priority for too many people these days. NXT has really dampened the appeal of ROH. They combined all the good stuff about ROH's past (great technical wrestlers, good storylines, top international stars) and mixed it with the WWE's production values to make current ROH to look passé and behind the times. Also, since NXT is now working with Evolve, most people, myself included, would rather give Evolve a chance than try to stay awake for another ROH show.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jul 26, 2016 9:09:56 GMT -5
I'm glad others have jumped on board with this critique of ROH. These were the same criticisms I made when ROH had the brief Destination America run. I thought the show was too reliant on NJPW guys who all went over, too many cheesy wrestlers that had no appeal, the entire Corino/Whitmer dreck, etc. But in the big picture the NJPW stuff is the worst. I can almost guarantee everyone that at some point ROH management will start trying to put their guys over at long last and then New Japan will balk and cut ties, leaving the ROH roster jobbed out to an outside company with no upside.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 26, 2016 9:35:06 GMT -5
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I've only had a passing glance at the show, but I've given it a chance a few times because they do feature wrestlers I like. 1) No real identity. Sure they're arguably the biggest independent promotion in the US, but they don't seem to have any real identifiable brand. Everything from the production to the logo to the music feels 12 years in the past and makes the whole show very blase' & dated to me. 2) Commentary is horrible. Just flat out horrible every time I watch it. They come off very carny and annoying most of the time and often sexualize the valets in a way that just makes me roll my eyes. Like, is this show for 11 year olds or something? They basically need a hook or a gimmick or a mantra or SOMETHING to produce their shows around. LU is the grindhouse lucha-sploitation show. WWE is the "circus" or Barnum & Bailey of wrestling. TNA is apparently a walking in-joke of a wrestling show now. Even some non-televised indies have a pseudo theme to work around - I know these shows aren't as successful as RoH, but I mean they have a clear, identifiable theme. Progress is the "british punk rock" show Chikara is the "living comic book" show PWG - well, PWG is honestly the hipster show at this point (but in a good way). Good points, and just to add something, while ROH is still the biggest indy right now, working for them doesn't have the same hook it used to. A big part of that is how ROH is booked right now, and how they have been killing the momentum of a lot of over acts in a way that would make WWE and TNA shake their heads.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 26, 2016 10:12:32 GMT -5
Hire Russo, just to make the fanbase and Jim Cornette's heads explode.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 10:21:58 GMT -5
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I've only had a passing glance at the show, but I've given it a chance a few times because they do feature wrestlers I like. 1) No real identity. Sure they're arguably the biggest independent promotion in the US, but they don't seem to have any real identifiable brand. Everything from the production to the logo to the music feels 12 years in the past and makes the whole show very blase' & dated to me. 2) Commentary is horrible. Just flat out horrible every time I watch it. They come off very carny and annoying most of the time and often sexualize the valets in a way that just makes me roll my eyes. Like, is this show for 11 year olds or something? They basically need a hook or a gimmick or a mantra or SOMETHING to produce their shows around. LU is the grindhouse lucha-sploitation show. WWE is the "circus" or Barnum & Bailey of wrestling. TNA is apparently a walking in-joke of a wrestling show now. Even some non-televised indies have a pseudo theme to work around - I know these shows aren't as successful as RoH, but I mean they have a clear, identifiable theme. Progress is the "british punk rock" show Chikara is the "living comic book" show PWG - well, PWG is honestly the hipster show at this point (but in a good way). Good points, and just to add something, while ROH is still the biggest indy right now, working for them doesn't have the same hook it used to. A big part of that is how ROH is booked right now, and how they have been killing the momentum of a lot of over acts in a way that would make WWE and TNA shake their heads. I agree. I mean, I personally consider ROH to be the #2 promotion in North America, but they don't really have that impactful guy on top. If anything, it must be echoed that an over-reliance on New Japan may seem like a good investment, but it doesn't work when you have your shows revolved around all these big names from New Japan... and they are partnered with guys that aren't uttered in the same breath. The wrestling is still solid, but I have to admit that there is a relative amount of blandness right now, and the fact that we're seeing Bullet Club Elite running around ROH right now doesn't help with the promotion because it's not a revolutionary idea. Again, I don't see where they go because while Jay Lethal's a great wrestler, I already mentioned that he's done everything he could with the main title. I actually want them to strap a rocket to somebody in the undercard and give them a chance to shine.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jul 26, 2016 10:32:43 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 11:21:31 GMT -5
Good points, and just to add something, while ROH is still the biggest indy right now, working for them doesn't have the same hook it used to. A big part of that is how ROH is booked right now, and how they have been killing the momentum of a lot of over acts in a way that would make WWE and TNA shake their heads. I agree. I mean, I personally consider ROH to be the #2 promotion in North America, but they don't really have that impactful guy on top. If anything, it must be echoed that an over-reliance on New Japan may seem like a good investment, but it doesn't work when you have your shows revolved around all these big names from New Japan... and they are partnered with guys that aren't uttered in the same breath. The wrestling is still solid, but I have to admit that there is a relative amount of blandness right now, and the fact that we're seeing Bullet Club Elite running around ROH right now doesn't help with the promotion because it's not a revolutionary idea. Again, I don't see where they go because while Jay Lethal's a great wrestler, I already mentioned that he's done everything he could with the main title. I actually want them to strap a rocket to somebody in the undercard and give them a chance to shine. Part of the problem right now is that the champion doesn't really dictate the pace of the shows. ROH shows were great when they were centered around Lethal when he and Truth were at their peaks, and it followed a pretty standard formula of announcing a challenger, Jay Lethal/Truth Martini talking shit in the build up at their self aggrandizing best and building anticipation but now we can go weeks without seeing Lethal at all on TV. Like, when the Bullet Club ransacked the Colt Cabana match, kicked Lethal in the head a hundred times and beat up a small army of ROH staff, the followup was just a six man tag against the Bullet Club, a plain old standard tag match. The Bullet Club acted like criminals at the PPV and no one seemed all that concerned in the follow up to do anything about it. There needs to be at least some consistent thread that unravels from week to week. Their shows have been having the tendency to all exist in their own little bubbles from week to week instead of feeling like an episodic TV show.
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Post by ronnie2hotty on Jul 26, 2016 11:48:35 GMT -5
I agree. I mean, I personally consider ROH to be the #2 promotion in North America, but they don't really have that impactful guy on top. If anything, it must be echoed that an over-reliance on New Japan may seem like a good investment, but it doesn't work when you have your shows revolved around all these big names from New Japan... and they are partnered with guys that aren't uttered in the same breath. The wrestling is still solid, but I have to admit that there is a relative amount of blandness right now, and the fact that we're seeing Bullet Club Elite running around ROH right now doesn't help with the promotion because it's not a revolutionary idea. Again, I don't see where they go because while Jay Lethal's a great wrestler, I already mentioned that he's done everything he could with the main title. I actually want them to strap a rocket to somebody in the undercard and give them a chance to shine. Part of the problem right now is that the champion doesn't really dictate the pace of the shows. ROH shows were great when they were centered around Lethal when he and Truth were at their peaks, and it followed a pretty standard formula of announcing a challenger, Jay Lethal/Truth Martini talking shit in the build up at their self aggrandizing best and building anticipation but now we can go weeks without seeing Lethal at all on TV. Like, when the Bullet Club ransacked the Colt Cabana match, kicked Lethal in the head a hundred times and beat up a small army of ROH staff, the followup was just a six man tag against the Bullet Club, a plain old standard tag match. The Bullet Club acted like criminals at the PPV and no one seemed all that concerned in the follow up to do anything about it. There needs to be at least some consistent thread that unravels from week to week. Their shows have been having the tendency to all exist in their own little bubbles from week to week instead of feeling like an episodic TV show. The episodic TV thing is something that has ALWAYS hampered ROH. From the day it was announced from their original deal with HDNet clear up to today. ROH have never really been able to figure out whether they want to be a company that has weekly TV to build PPV's, or whether it wants to be a company that sells DVD's and uses the TV to promote those DVD's, or whether it wants to be both (which will never work out logistically).
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Post by chronocross on Jul 26, 2016 11:58:07 GMT -5
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I've only had a passing glance at the show, but I've given it a chance a few times because they do feature wrestlers I like. 1) No real identity. Sure they're arguably the biggest independent promotion in the US, but they don't seem to have any real identifiable brand. Everything from the production to the logo to the music feels 12 years in the past and makes the whole show very blase' & dated to me. 2) Commentary is horrible. Just flat out horrible every time I watch it. They come off very carny and annoying most of the time and often sexualize the valets in a way that just makes me roll my eyes. Like, is this show for 11 year olds or something? They basically need a hook or a gimmick or a mantra or SOMETHING to produce their shows around. LU is the grindhouse lucha-sploitation show. WWE is the "circus" or Barnum & Bailey of wrestling. TNA is apparently a walking in-joke of a wrestling show now. Even some non-televised indies have a pseudo theme to work around - I know these shows aren't as successful as RoH, but I mean they have a clear, identifiable theme. Progress is the "british punk rock" show Chikara is the "living comic book" show PWG - well, PWG is honestly the hipster show at this point (but in a good way). This. 100% this. I loosely followed ROH from inception to about 2005/2006ish. Then regularly followed it from about the time Danielson won the title to 2008 when Gabe was fired. I've been really trying to get back into it and catch up from some of the good stuff I missed from 2009 to present, but some of todays stuff is hard to get into. It's not that it's bad, because it's not. It's just not as good as it used to be. With a limited amount of free time and disposable income, ROH is just not a priority for too many people these days. NXT has really dampened the appeal of ROH. They combined all the good stuff about ROH's past (great technical wrestlers, good storylines, top international stars) and mixed it with the WWE's production values to make current ROH to look passé and behind the times. Also, since NXT is now working with Evolve, most people, myself included, would rather give Evolve a chance than try to stay awake for another ROH show. I agree with this, I started watching and went to the live shows from 2004-2007 and then stopped watching consistently for several years. I found it difficult to get into the storylines these days, I liked the video showing the feud with Whitmer and Corino, but the stuff with Sullivan we could do without, IMO. I used to go the live shows here in NYC, Philly and Jersey for wrestling that would blow away WWE and TNA, but I feel like it's just there, not awful or anything, but not intriguing enough to hold my interest for a full show. I may take a look at Evolve and see what they have going on, now that you mention it.
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jul 26, 2016 14:52:36 GMT -5
I feel the same sentiment as almost the the recent posts.
I was a HUGE ROH fan. I was front row for Misawa, I was there the night Matt Hardy debuted back during the Lita thing, hell I have a TWO Carnage Crew t-shirts... For some reason I feel very little desire to attend a live show. I was contemplating going to Final Battle this year, but what's the point? I'll be at 3 shows with Rhodes before he finally goes to ROH. Obviously I'm a HUGE homer since Taven/Bennett are local guys, but Taven/Bennett/Maria was the only thing that drew me in at all to ROH and stupid ass TNA had to go and ruin it. Now I find myself dying to watch them, but I don't have the desire to buy tickets or DVDs...
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Rave
El Dandy
Perpetually Bored
Posts: 8,200
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Post by Rave on Jul 26, 2016 16:00:09 GMT -5
Decrease the New Japan presence. It's no longer special having them around if they're on just about every show.
Kill the Corino/Whitmer storyline with fire and distribute the brain bleach so that we forget all about it. There's no reason that schlock should still be going.
Fire Kevin Kelly.
Clean out the roster! There are quite a few folks who've served their purpose (like Silas Young and Whitmer) or are being shoehorned into everything to justify their contract (ADAM COLE!). Cycle these folks out and cycle in fresh talent.
Stop with the Briscoes. They're relics of a bygone era. Cycle them out for a good long while, if not for good.
Ditch NESN and find an affiliate for non-Sinclair areas that will air the TV show every week and won't pre-empt it for crap like car shows and golf course tours.
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543Y2J
Patti Mayonnaise
Seventh level .gif Master
Posts: 38,794
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Post by 543Y2J on Jul 26, 2016 16:10:26 GMT -5
I love Delirious as a worker. Such a captivating character, that he executes exceptionally well.
Its a wonder to me how such originality abd personality that the lizard man brings that he can't transcend it into his booking to make an interesting vibrant product.
Its not like roster isn't full of talented workers either. Not the strongest it's ever been for the company but certainly not bad at all.
They still have good matches whenever I occasionally watch the product, but its all stuck in a vapid shell of bland WWE lite presentation from graphics, stage etc.
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Post by thegatewaydrug on Jul 26, 2016 18:36:33 GMT -5
Simple:
MOAR Super Kicks!
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