Dukect
Don Corleone
A person who tries to make sense of the senseless
Posts: 1,569
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Post by Dukect on Jul 25, 2016 11:36:25 GMT -5
I hope this isn't breaking any rules but I really wanted to make this thread for quite a while now and since a lot of people have soured on ROH this year I wanted to see why that is and what can be done to fix it.
And what better to have the discussion here live on the Freakin' Awesome Network Forums (Cheap pop)
So with that said what's the deal with Ring of honor how did it get to this funk it has with its fans and is there a way out of it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 12:07:57 GMT -5
Put the focus on their own guys instead of on outsiders, inject some much needed variety and spontaneity into the lifeless droll of a main event scene where nothing ever happens (including having Lethal lose the belt, given he's been some variety of weasely but legit heel champion for well over two years at this point and it's very, very old), and start having the weekly shows have things of substance instead of nothing but random matches. Those'd help a lot.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 25, 2016 13:08:13 GMT -5
Develop people and use them. Stop being scared to pull the trigger on title reigns and pushes, not everything has to be the big epic thing. Silas Young, Ciampa, Mark Briscoe, ACH, Moose and on and on with the list of guys that were hot but ignored. Now two are gone, two are damaged goods that may never reach the heights they had before and one is a second class citizen to his brother for no reason.
Stop being NJPW's bitch. You should not be dominated by them on your own shows.
Bring back more of the guys people like but don't want exclusive deals. Colt was a great first step, now how about Hero? No reason they cannot be used, even if you don't feel safe using them as champ.
Go back in time and fire Jim Cornette sooner.
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Post by Andy Martin on Jul 25, 2016 13:31:33 GMT -5
Fire Kevin Kelly.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Jul 25, 2016 13:35:30 GMT -5
Sign some of the big names WWE just realized like Cody, Ryback and Sandow.
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Post by funakifan88 on Jul 25, 2016 14:12:56 GMT -5
Restructuring how their shows are scheduled and what their TV is like would go miles to help them. There's no reason why their follow up television show to a PPV like Global Wars, where (arguably) the landscape of ROH shifted, should have been a rehash of shows from February. CUT THAT SHIT OUT!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 14:30:24 GMT -5
Restructuring how their shows are scheduled and what their TV is like would go miles to help them. There's no reason why their follow up television show to a PPV like Global Wars, where (arguably) the landscape of ROH shifted, should have been a rehash of shows from February. CUT THAT SHIT OUT! This is the big one for me. I'm often hesitant to even go on the website and click on the TV shows link because I always expect I'm gonna sit through the intro, listen to the commentary team and find out that I'm there for a bunch of exhibition matches recorded prior to the most recent PPV that really have no bearing on anything anymore. It makes it hard to follow them chronologically because their PPV shows are prompted by a break that feels too long, and often times their go-home shows aren't even available to me till the PPV is done, so I always feel a bit out of step when the PPV's come around. I don't agree that NJPW is running roughshod over ROH but the interpromotional matches certainly feel of lesser consequence to everything else. I don't really like their "dream match" approach to putting cards together because it's nice to have Okada/Tanahashi/Liger/Ishii on a card, but if they're not doing anything beyond that, as a viewer I don't have a real investment. It's not really enough for me to just have Elgin vs. Ishii on a card if all it is, is just a match for the sake of a match. The upcoming Cody Rhodes match I'm definitely interested in because I wanna see what Cody Rhodes is capable of outside of WWE, but it kind of sucks that there's no expectation of anything else and a lot of ROH's matches have that feeling of just being a match for the sake of it. It's just putting names on a card to draw an audience without a real hook when it comes to the NJPW stuff. Narrow down your numbers to a core group that you can actually get involved in storylines. If you can't have Okada enough times to make it seem like he's actively trying to climb the ROH competitive ladder then don't bring him in. |
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 25, 2016 14:33:04 GMT -5
Sign some of the big names WWE just realized like Cody, Ryback and Sandow. They have Cody coming in at Final Battle. No clue if it is a one off or not. Restructuring how their shows are scheduled and what their TV is like would go miles to help them. There's no reason why their follow up television show to a PPV like Global Wars, where (arguably) the landscape of ROH shifted, should have been a rehash of shows from February. CUT THAT SHIT OUT! The problem is that would require a unified time on all their stations which they don't have. Better follow up would be great, it is just not logistically possible. |
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MWC
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,824
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Post by MWC on Jul 25, 2016 15:20:13 GMT -5
I just want every show to feel important again. I have almost every show on DVD from 2002-2012 and about 75% from 2013/2014. Really fell off in the middle of 2014 for me and it's been hard watching the shows. Nothing stands out much any more compared to the past where every show had a huge selling point. Shows have just started to blended together.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 15:23:08 GMT -5
I know they sell shirts, but don't put an emphasis on the Bullet Club.
Also, use some of those prospect tournaments that you have to help build guys instead of using them to progress feuds like Corino/Silus Young (though he and the Beer City Bruiser are awesome). And, maybe it's time to move the belt off of Jay Lethal, since he's done everything possible with it, and see what you can do with, say, Dalton Castle, ACH, or Matt Sydal.
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Post by eldandyjamupguy on Jul 25, 2016 15:41:44 GMT -5
They flat out need a new creative direction. That is not an indictment on Delirious because he's had a good run, but in general it is good to have a new creative vision every few years in order to prevent complacency and stagnation which is what I feel is ROH 2016. Heck, in a few years bring Delirious back on when it's time for another change. By that time his stuff will feel fresh again. Go back in time and fire Jim Cornette sooner. lmao without Jim Cornette ROH very likely dies in 2011. Silkin was gonna close up shop and Cornette was one of 2 key people involved in getting it sold to Sinclair. So, yeah, boo Cornette |
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Jul 25, 2016 16:01:52 GMT -5
Book Nick Gage against Haku
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 25, 2016 16:14:32 GMT -5
They flat out need a new creative direction. That is not an indictment on Delirious because he's had a good run, but in general it is good to have a new creative vision every few years in order to prevent complacency and stagnation which is what I feel is ROH 2016. Heck, in a few years bring Delirious back on when it's time for another change. By that time his stuff will feel fresh again. Go back in time and fire Jim Cornette sooner. lmao without Jim Cornette ROH very likely dies in 2011. Silkin was gonna close up shop and Cornette was one of 2 key people involved in getting it sold to Sinclair. So, yeah, boo Cornette Yeah helped them sell it, good for him. Then as booker he drove away popular talent that only now are coming back and presided over the worst stretch in ROH history. Sorry if I still want to joke about his great ROH run. So yeah I think I will boo that jackass for that run and everything he's done after. |
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Post by eldandyjamupguy on Jul 25, 2016 16:26:36 GMT -5
Keep sipping that Steen/Cabana/Bucks kool-aid bruh.
Love the mob mentality of how people just accept the talent's narrative without giving consideration to front office stuff and listen to the other side of the sotry. Steen/Generico held it against Cornette that he didn't want them to do their next level stuff because he was trying to help broker a deal to ensure there would still be an ROH around. To them, it's "Cornette didn't want to listen to the boys! What a scum bag!" Yes, let's do a blood feud with violence all while we're trying to sell the company to a corporate perspective buyer. Makes sense.
Also such a bad time to be and ROH fan when he finally pulled the trigger on Tyler Black, kept his word and delivered on Steen and made him the champion, pushed KOW to the moon, and brought in Adam Cole. Oh but he said Cabana couldn't be a top guy and wanted Steen to lose weight, so yeah. Things are so much better today, right?
Fact of the matter is there would be no ROH today if not for Jim Cornette and Gary Jester.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 25, 2016 16:35:49 GMT -5
Keep sipping that Steen/Cabana/Bucks kool-aid bruh. Love how people just accept the talent's narrative without giving consideration to front office stuff. Steen/Generico held it against Cornette that he didn't want them to do their next level stuff because he was trying to help broker a deal to ensure there would still be an ROH around . Yes, let's do a blood feud with violence all while we're trying to sell the company to a corporate perspective buyer. Makes sense. Also such a bad time to be and ROH fan when he finally pulled the trigger on Tyler Black, kept his word and delivered on Steen and made him the champion, pushed KOW to the moon, and brought in Adam Cole. Oh but he said Cabana couldn't be a top guy and wanted Steen to lose weight, so yeah. Fact of the matter is there would be no ROH today if not for Jim Cornette and Gary Jester. Things are so much better today, right? Yeah, I do find today's ROH a thousand times better than everything Cornette did but never mind that. You've taken a joke and turned it into a mess while copping an attitude I don't appreciate. How about drop it all now and stay on the intended topic. |
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Post by eldandyjamupguy on Jul 25, 2016 16:45:13 GMT -5
Agreed, to tie it all back together with a nice bow: let's talk about how Delirious has navigated this ship into the worst waters it has been in a loooong while (if ever? I didn't follow ROH prior to the age of the fall stuff so I can't speak for it, but the stuff I've seen and how many lackluster events there have been is at an all time high atm. I just flat out disagree with your opinion that Cornette years being the dirt worst. Cornette's worst moment during his run as booker is better than ROH 2016).
Already this year we've seen long time ROH loyalist Roderick Strong be chased away and Moose bail. Mix in how he's just allowing his talent look like geeks and be a door mat to the guys who are presented as the real stars (NJPW) and it's a bad vibe around the company. Prior regimes did not really sell out their own talent like that and present them as jokes like he has done with ROH atm.
I don't know why he resorted to making this kind of deal with NJPW (based on booking, I would wager NJPW has final say). Really they are just the conduit to help NJPW expand to America the little bit that they can. Meanwhile, all ROH gets is for their trouble is to have the privilege for their guys to lose to NJPW top guys all the time.
Feel like that's coming down too hard on Delirious, but ROH is not in a good spot right now and is in desperate need of a new vision.
It's like sports: your team misses the playoffs for a few years in a row, the GM gets fired. The last really good show they've had was BITW 15 and the build up for tha felt like a big title fight so good on Delirious, but now it has just been a steady stream of 6.5/10. Nothing offensive, but nothing really good; just there. Creative and workrate wise, it is a dark period for ROH.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847 
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Post by Reflecto on Jul 25, 2016 16:49:37 GMT -5
Either crap or get off the pot.
Either fully rebrand ROH into "New Japan Pro Wrestling-USA" or cut the cord as much as possible and become its own promotion. And given the situation with pro wrestling in 2016, ROH fully rebranding into New Japan's USA promotion would probably be their better option simply because NXT has guaranteed ROH will be WORSE than WWE (instead of DIFFERENT THAN, which made ROH work for so long.)
ROH's entire buildup happened because they could get the biggest names on the independent scene because WWE ignored them for so long. Now, NXT has made it clear that WWE WILL sign the top independent talent and a top star on the indies has a fighting chance of getting booked by WWE- which shifted the indy talent balance of power to EVOLVE and their WWE working agreement and away from ROH.
With that in mind, the only way to try and stop the ROH funk would be to fully rebrand ROH and make it absolutely clear to indy talent "If you'd prefer to go to New Japan instead of WWE, sign with ROH and you'll eventually get a chance there."
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
Hank Scorpio
note to all: he's a pants-less heathen
I Survived The Impact Spoilers 7/22/15-7/30/15
Posts: 7,097
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Jul 25, 2016 16:54:34 GMT -5
I don't think (at least for me) ROH is in as bad a situation as many make out. Their hourly television shows are the easiest hour of television that I sit through every week.
That being said, it is far from perfect and after a really good 2015 (particluarly the first half or so of the year) 2016 has definitely felt a decline in quality. Several things really bug me.
Firstly, the PPV's. I just mentioned how the TV show is easy to sit through, well the PPV's have been anything but. Most of the matches on the last three or four PPV's haven't really felt like "PPV quality" matches. They are building to the shows well and then failing to deliver what the build has promised and the conclusion is the most important part so failing to deliver that is a fairly big deal.
Also, their tour shows, I know these are never going to be as big as their PPV's and there is potentially a logistical issue with regards to how the storylines play in regards to television but I wish they'd make these feel a bit more important. They are always fun shows to watch but they generally feel totally unimportant and kind of exist within their own bubble. I realise they're not going to do major things on these shows (generally) but storyline advancement should happen with every show you do, no matter how minor.
Thirdly, dear god sort your television schedule following PPV's out. They do a PPV and tend to follow it with a TV taping the next day. Now granted the PPV is usually Friday and their show airs on Saturday/Sunday/Wednesday so the first one is obviously not going to be a follow-up (which is fine, keep it as the general PPV "preview" they usually do) but next week's show (usually exactly a week after the tapings on its first airing) should absolutely be a follow-up. Sometimes we're waiting two, even three weeks following a PPV for some follow-up. When something big, like the ending of Global Wars, happens if you wait almost a month to follow it up with anything it loses pretty much all of the heat it ever had.
Next, stop making yourselves look like complete jokes every time New Japan come to town, and stop not booking good shows just because you know the Japanese guys are going to help you sell it out anyway. I know Fish got the big win over Ishii and I'm well aware NJPW is the bigger company but this relationship that was once exciting is becoming toxic.
And finally, although he's booking generally solid, enjoyable shows, I think it is time for someone to replace Delirious as head booker. As I said the shows are solid but things feel kind of stagnant and Delirious has seemingly lost the ability to make things feel fresh or innovative. He's done a good job recovering the company following the Cornette debacle but it's time for a change.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 17:04:29 GMT -5
Either crap or get off the pot. Either fully rebrand ROH into "New Japan Pro Wrestling-USA" or cut the cord as much as possible and become its own promotion. And given the situation with pro wrestling in 2016, ROH fully rebranding into New Japan's USA promotion would probably be their better option simply because NXT has guaranteed ROH will be WORSE than WWE (instead of DIFFERENT THAN, which made ROH work for so long.) ROH's entire buildup happened because they could get the biggest names on the independent scene because WWE ignored them for so long. Now, NXT has made it clear that WWE WILL sign the top independent talent and a top star on the indies has a fighting chance of getting booked by WWE- which shifted the indy talent balance of power to EVOLVE and their WWE working agreement and away from ROH. With that in mind, the only way to try and stop the ROH funk would be to fully rebrand ROH and make it absolutely clear to indy talent "If you'd prefer to go to New Japan instead of WWE, sign with ROH and you'll eventually get a chance there." Though ROH I still consider pretty on the ball in terms of discovering talent and putting them on the map. Dalton Castle, Silas Young, Donovan Dijack, Lio Rush, the top prospect tournaments always bring about guys that I think have a lot to offer. I wanna see more of Punisher Martinez, that guy was badass. I don't think (at least for me) ROH is in as bad a situation as many make out. Their hourly television shows are the easiest hour of television that I sit through every week. I agree with this too. I'm definitely grading them on a curve, their shows are still good every time I watch them. They've been producing my favorite wrestling shows for years but they've definitely lost momentum. There's a lack of focus on their shows more lately where there's just a lot of stuff going on that doesn't feel like it's pushing anything forward. |
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Post by Dr. Mantis Toboggan on Jul 25, 2016 17:27:16 GMT -5
Ring of Honor is in a funk  I'm sorry. |
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