Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 22:09:39 GMT -5
I saw a clip online a few weeks ago of the Rock on Raw right after Backlash 2000 where he won the title. The fans were going apeshit as he finally won the title again and they were waiting for that to happen. Nowadays, you'd hear the crowd chant "you deserve it", knowing full well that it was a wrestler that the booking team finally gave a break to rather than one of their favorites winning the big one. It's just a weird, weird time for wrestling. When I watch Friends, I know it's a sitcom acted out by actors, but for 20+ minutes I can get lost in their world. In the WWE, the announcers tell you it's fake, the wrestlers tell you it's fake, and the fans act like it's fake. I guess HHH Is just embracing that aspect but it's not the direction I would go in. ...when do the announcers or wrestlers ever tell you it's fake? Has that ever happened on WWE tv? If an Entertainment Weekly interview with Courtney Cox doesn't hurt your ability to get lost in an episode of Friends, this shouldn't hurt your ability to get lost in an episode of Raw. The show is presented as a variety show, so even if by some chance they do a serious angle, it will be followed up by something that exposes that what you are watching is fake. The wrestlers don't come right out and say it, but it's implied many times on camera, lately with AJ styles talking about not wanting Cena to bury him during their feud. It's pandering to an audience that knows it's fake and is willing to accept that. Courtney Cox would never come out on the actual TV show as herself. Any interview she did outside the show was different. I'm talking about within the actual show. Look at NXT. The Zayn/Nakamura match was 20 something minutes of the crowd chanting everything under the sun and none of it was in the context of kayfabe. The fans, at least some of them, have accepted it, and the WWE (and pretty much every wrestling company now) has as well. Not my cup of tea but it is what it is.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Aug 11, 2016 22:14:15 GMT -5
What a complete load of bullshit.
Everything that he says doesn't matter are elements of why WWF succeeded. The only reason they continue to survive is due to brand recognition, and the fact that there truly isn't any real competition for them to truly test this ideology. But it has in fact hurt them more than it has helped them.
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Post by GuyOfOwnage on Aug 11, 2016 22:19:09 GMT -5
As someone who enjoys studying the business as much as I enjoy watching it, the problem with 50/50 booking is, the way he explains it, he acts as though people are saying it directly hurts the success of the promotion. No one has ever said that. The problem is it hurts the talent you book in that manner. Sure, WrestleMania was the most attended one of all-time. And it has zero to do with the card being presented and everything to do with the WWE brand, which is how Vince wants it anyway.
And using the "people love underdogs" excuse doesn't work here. That would imply there was some long-term story arc involved in these guys being yo-yo'd around. There isn't. WWE wouldn't know long-term booking if it bit them right in the ass. It's just careless, sloppy booking. That's it.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 11, 2016 22:22:49 GMT -5
...when do the announcers or wrestlers ever tell you it's fake? Has that ever happened on WWE tv? If an Entertainment Weekly interview with Courtney Cox doesn't hurt your ability to get lost in an episode of Friends, this shouldn't hurt your ability to get lost in an episode of Raw. The show is presented as a variety show, so even if by some chance they do a serious angle, it will be followed up by something that exposes that what you are watching is fake. The wrestlers don't come right out and say it, but it's implied many times on camera, lately with AJ styles talking about not wanting Cena to bury him during their feud. It's pandering to an audience that knows it's fake and is willing to accept that. Courtney Cox would never come out on the actual TV show as herself. Any interview she did outside the show was different. I'm talking about within the actual show. Look at NXT. The Zayn/Nakamura match was 20 something minutes of the crowd chanting everything under the sun and none of it was in the context of kayfabe. The fans, at least some of them, have accepted it, and the WWE (and pretty much every wrestling company now) has as well. Not my cup of tea but it is what it is. The AJ comments make perfect sense in kayfabe, and the same is true of every worked shoot I can think of since Russo left. The only times I can think the WWE has broken kayfabe is very extreme and odd situations like Benoit... they are absolutely not going around telling people the show is fake on the air. The crowd's a different matter. It doesn't really bother me, but it can get in the way of the story the WWE is trying to tell. But, I'd argue that the real source of that is the WWE itself: they just cannot give up the oldtimem carnie "This is REAL, people, REALLY REAL!" mindset, so now that everyone's caught on that the fighting is fake, they have to find realness somewhere, because they trained the crowd to only care about that. So the have to find it in the realness of backstage drama of pushes.
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Post by taker1990 on Aug 11, 2016 22:44:39 GMT -5
I have never seen a company so constantly thumb their nose at consumer criticism and complaints. Most will at least pay lip service to them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 23:07:11 GMT -5
He lost me with his argument about 50/50 booking. He claims it doesn't matter but there are plenty of guys who have stalled out because of it. Bray Wyatt is way less over than he used to be, and it's from 50/50 booking. I don't care what he says. I'm pretty sure he's just toeing the company line because you don't really see 50/50 nonsense in NXT on a regular basis. Publicly talking about how your boss is wrong about something isn't good. You can tell he was trying to be as political as possible when Austin was grilling him with similar questions on his podcast.
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Post by radiantsilvergun on Aug 11, 2016 23:28:22 GMT -5
God damn whats the point of pulling the curtain back like this? Theres people out there that are still worked by the product, and they WANT to be worked. They WANT to suspend their disbelief. They ENJOY suspending their disbelief. Cater to them instead of the "smarks". What in the f*** are they doing to our beloved wrestling? I see no problem with this. Kayfabe is dead, no one in this world buys wrestling as real. Pulling the curtain back is a behind the scenes look, just like TV Shows and Movies do. Kayfabe being dead is a misconception. One look at the WWE Facebook page will confirm that for you. Now people are trying their hardest to kill it, but its still very much alive. Barely, but it can be revived if people weren't so hellbent on killing it.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Aug 11, 2016 23:43:22 GMT -5
I love that a dude who got over mostly by never f***ing losing says it doesn't matter.
"wins and losses don't matter but don't let HHH look weak on the video game commercial. Lets have him be champ when he's 45."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 0:25:05 GMT -5
For a guy who preaches the glories of 50-50 booking, he sure never lead by example by politicking himself into 99-1 booking. Like if it was Jericho preaching 50-50 booking, I'd be more inclined in what he says.
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Post by Big Bad Kahuna on Aug 12, 2016 0:30:29 GMT -5
Besides parts of his 50/50 booking explanation, he's totally right though. That's why NXT works! What he says here, he does in NXT, yknow?
Some of you should rather rethink your "ideal psychology/booking philosophy"
What some of you don't understand: While ratings and houseshow numbers are far from good, WWE keeps making more money every year, via TV licenses, WWE Network, sponsors, merch etc
The brand itself is important now, not building megastars. Similar to WM's success every year, while the WM shows themselves are often worse than some of the regular PPV specials
Doesn't mean I agree with all decisions, but their track record reeks of success, while the typical IWC-style booking would surely generate less $$$
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Post by eJm on Aug 12, 2016 0:37:16 GMT -5
I see no problem with this. Kayfabe is dead, no one in this world buys wrestling as real. Pulling the curtain back is a behind the scenes look, just like TV Shows and Movies do. Kayfabe being dead is a misconception. One look at the WWE Facebook page will confirm that for you. Now people are trying their hardest to kill it, but its still very much alive. Barely, but it can be revived if people weren't so hellbent on killing it. That's sort of like saying "humanity is the worst, here's this YouTube comments section on a video about Peppa Pig talking about Nazis and cussing up women". People have a damn bizarre attachment to kayfabe like it's the only way to enjoy wrestling when all WWE has to do is have more faith in its own characters, universe and show concept in general to ACT like the show it wants to be rather than trying to be something it isn't instead of going out of your way to make your workers act like it's real all the time in a shallow way the other 99% can see through.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Aug 12, 2016 0:39:08 GMT -5
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 12, 2016 11:09:02 GMT -5
The problem with 50/50 booking is that they simultaneously have this narrative of "some wrestlers are just good and others are worthless scrubs."
If they successfully conveyed the idea that anyone on the roster could conceivably beat anyone else on any given night, then 50/50 booking is fine: it'd depend on the story. But they've worked so hard telling us PEOPLE LIKE JOHN CENA ARE IMPORTANT; PEOPLE LIKE CURTIS AXEL ARE WORTHLESS JOKES, we get confused wondering who the schlub is supposed to be.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Aug 12, 2016 11:54:14 GMT -5
Foley's sell during that bit is such an underrated, understated performance. Like, Punk is Punk, but Foley's sort-of resigned "yep, she said it" creases me up every time.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 12, 2016 13:41:44 GMT -5
His argument of "we are still selling out arenas!" is yet another example of Punk's "millionnaire/billionnaire" thing.
Even with their shitty booking, they are still profitable.
Imagine how much more successful they could be with logical booking.
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Aug 12, 2016 19:46:59 GMT -5
I see no problem with this. Kayfabe is dead, no one in this world buys wrestling as real. Pulling the curtain back is a behind the scenes look, just like TV Shows and Movies do. Kayfabe being dead is a misconception. One look at the WWE Facebook page will confirm that for you. Now people are trying their hardest to kill it, but its still very much alive. Barely, but it can be revived if people weren't so hellbent on killing it. Modern day wrestling isn't "real", its a TV show like any other. Thats the best way to keep wrestling alive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 20:56:50 GMT -5
Foley's sell during that bit is such an underrated, understated performance. Like, Punk is Punk, but Foley's sort-of resigned "yep, she said it" creases me up every time. Plus Edward Norton Ref lol
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canal
Samurai Cop
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Post by canal on Aug 12, 2016 22:50:35 GMT -5
Foley's sell during that bit is such an underrated, understated performance. Like, Punk is Punk, but Foley's sort-of resigned "yep, she said it" creases me up every time. He's never reminded me so more of The Dude than he does in that gif.
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Post by radiantsilvergun on Aug 13, 2016 0:50:05 GMT -5
Kayfabe being dead is a misconception. One look at the WWE Facebook page will confirm that for you. Now people are trying their hardest to kill it, but its still very much alive. Barely, but it can be revived if people weren't so hellbent on killing it. That's sort of like saying "humanity is the worst, here's this YouTube comments section on a video about Peppa Pig talking about Nazis and cussing up women". People have a damn bizarre attachment to kayfabe like it's the only way to enjoy wrestling when all WWE has to do is have more faith in its own characters, universe and show concept in general to ACT like the show it wants to be rather than trying to be something it isn't instead of going out of your way to make your workers act like it's real all the time in a shallow way the other 99% can see through. Kayfabe is very much a "if it ain't broke dont fix it" type thing. It worked for decades. Seeing two people who just beat the shit out of eachother in the ring having a laugh on Twitter is very discouraging as an example. Sure times are changing, business is evolving etc. But its happening too fast It can still work too. Zayn and Owens talk trash about each other in the media completely in kayfabe and people love it. Sure, we're "in on it", but its very easy to suspend disbelief if they're putting in a good effort into their characters. /endCornetterant
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canal
Samurai Cop
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Post by canal on Aug 13, 2016 0:59:34 GMT -5
I don't think he explained much of anything. He was just being pretentious and smug.
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