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Post by MrElijah on Aug 25, 2016 11:26:25 GMT -5
I notice that Owens sells severe beatings as well, especially with the limping. And now example how selling works: Hulk Hogan would look like he got his ass kicked, attack Savage's limbs? Randy made it look like the other guy tried to rip a leg off.
Watch Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair 2 out of 3 Falls from COTC VI. Everything in that match told a cohesive story which ended in a due to great selling and brilliant psychology.
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Post by sfvega on Aug 25, 2016 11:47:41 GMT -5
To the selling comment, it's been reported that officials tell the stars to not sell in matches. It's not their fault, they do want to sell but those in the back tell them to not do it. As stupid as it is, that's what's going on. Wow, that's insanely dumb. I do love that Vince seemingly just decides what wrestling is on any given day, seemingly on a whim.
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Post by Yacht Persona on Aug 25, 2016 12:07:59 GMT -5
I would have to think one of the reasons the brand split was brought back was to specifically reduce wear and tear on the performers.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 25, 2016 12:16:18 GMT -5
I would have to think one of the reasons the brand split was brought back was to specifically reduce wear and tear on the performers. That's my personal hope, but I'm not sure how it will play out. The plus side is that now the roster is split so that each half only has to worry about one weekly TV show in primetime to do big stuff for instead of two, though now with the smaller show rosters that'll mean more guys working Raw or SD more regularly, too. Then again, for the top stars this does lighten the TV workload a little bit, as you won't have, say, Reigns and Rusev fighting on Raw and then immediately having them fight again on SD. The possible downsides that worry me are that WWE has almost always had an A and B touring company, so now we can just call A and B Raw and Smackdown instead, so the layout isn't terribly different (unless somebody knows more than I do and can correct me on that, in which case please do so). Plus the announcement of more network specials, basically amounting to two PPVs a month if we were in the old format, isn't very encouraging, either. Again though, I'd be glad to hear that the positives are going to outweigh the negatives if anybody has better information on that question.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,263
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 25, 2016 14:02:06 GMT -5
You know who did some tremendous selling recently? Johnny Gargano. The CWC.
Setting the scene. The Revival tore his knee to shreds at TakeOver Brooklyn II, and then he had to go out and wrestle a match with Perkins on a hurt leg (Though taped weeks before, this plays into the biggest spot of the match)
In the span of the match, the leg starts breaking down, he starts off fine but after a suicide dive he starts limping a little, TJ sees it, tries to work it, tries to get the TJ Clutch synched in, Gargano fights out of it. Then a huge part of the match, Gargano risks it all on the outside and Perkins sends him flying legs first into the ring bell table, a spot that shocked the crowd so hard they went into silence. This spot was double important because again, this happened BEFORE TakeOver, why would Johnny sell a bad leg so much? This gave a legitimate reason for the live crowd to believe Johnny's leg was F***ed, and for the TV Crowd to realize the residual damage in wrestling time that the Revival just did to the knee.
After this Gargano's leg is all kinds of terrible at this point and he's selling it masterfully. He tries to do the Lawn Dart, and he crumbles. He basically has to will everything he has to hit it on the second attempt. By the end of the match he is literally hopping on one leg to try and hit his finisher, but Perkins locks the TJ Clutch, and Gargano has no choice, he taps because his leg and knee can't take anymore.
This is an INCREDIBLE story told in the match. I assume WWE is starting to tell guys to sell injuries again, Rusev with his ribs, and Sami with the worked ankle injury in the Rollins match. It's completely asinine not to sell moves, and maybe they're starting to back off this shitty mentality. I hope so anyway, in NXT, they definitely don't follow it, and that's awesome to see.
Also, I know there's already a thread about it, but Gargano is a F***ing Star, so is Ciampa, they are both fantastic.
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Shai
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,507
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Post by Shai on Aug 25, 2016 14:14:55 GMT -5
You know who did some tremendous selling recently? Johnny Gargano. The CWC. Setting the scene. The Revival tore his knee to shreds at TakeOver Brooklyn II, and then he had to go out and wrestle a match with Perkins on a hurt leg (Though taped weeks before, this plays into the biggest spot of the match) In the span of the match, the leg starts breaking down, he starts off fine but after a suicide dive he starts limping a little, TJ sees it, tries to work it, tries to get the TJ Clutch synched in, Gargano fights out of it. Then a huge part of the match, Gargano risks it all on the outside and Perkins sends him flying legs first into the ring bell table, a spot that shocked the crowd so hard they went into silence. This spot was double important because again, this happened BEFORE TakeOver, why would Johnny sell a bad leg so much? This gave a legitimate reason for the live crowd to believe Johnny's leg was F***ed, and for the TV Crowd to realize the residual damage in wrestling time that the Revival just did to the knee. After this Gargano's leg is all kinds of terrible at this point and he's selling it masterfully. He tries to do the Lawn Dart, and he crumbles. He basically has to will everything he has to hit it on the second attempt. By the end of the match he is literally hopping on one leg to try and hit his finisher, but Perkins locks the TJ Clutch, and Gargano has no choice, he taps because his leg and knee can't take anymore. This is an INCREDIBLE story told in the match. I assume WWE is starting to tell guys to sell injuries again, Rusev with his ribs, and Sami with the worked ankle injury in the Rollins match. It's completely asinine not to sell moves, and maybe they're starting to back off this shitty mentality. I hope so anyway, in NXT, they definitely don't follow it, and that's awesome to see. Also, I know there's already a thread about it, but Gargano is a F***ing Star, so is Ciampa, they are both fantastic. I SAW THAT!! That's exactly the kinda stuff I miss. Don't get me wrong I love all the high spot matches but the current trend of no selling in WWE is getting kind of tiresome. It's even the small things to me like the way Bayley actually LOOKS like she's been in a fight after her matches.
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Post by Lazy peon on Aug 25, 2016 14:18:06 GMT -5
This is the first thing I thought of after Finn no sold that superplex.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 25, 2016 14:22:53 GMT -5
I will ALWAYS respect good selling, but I also think that people need to open up their idea of "psychology" to include a wider range of things. It's GREAT when Gargano's leg injury causes him to fall on a big move, which his opponent exploits to win. But there's plenty of stories that can be told in a ring, and not all center on selling. Gallagher/Tozawa is an example: the german suplex is an insta-kill, so Gallagher has to do everything he can to avoid it while Tozawa does everything he can to hit it. Or hell, the Zayn/Cesaro NXT matches were nothing but highspots, but they were great, because of the clear story of Cesaro trying desperately to keep control over an opponent who refuses to be controlled.
It's another conversation whether these styles are dangerous (I still maintain it's the schedule that's worst) but this "minimal selling = no psychology" trope is just false.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Aug 25, 2016 21:54:15 GMT -5
The way the lack of selling is presented within the product bugs me a great deal. Selling the injury/the attack is part of the story and helps the audience whether it's live or at home become emotionally invested into the match. You'd think with Hunter being such an old school mark he'd put his foot down and tell Vince that not selling is retarded and insulting to the audience and the wrestlers.
I remember when The Rock gave Miz The People's Elbow and Miz instead of laying there jumped up to his foot and was thrown over the top rope. It really killed the moment and the move for me personally. I miss the days of wrestling where the wrestlers sold injured ribs, legs, arms, or bandaged foreheads due to blading during the match or limping after a hardcore brutal match. Why is Vince so hellbent on presenting the show like a film rather than a wrestling event?
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 61,902
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Aug 25, 2016 22:16:43 GMT -5
I can't complain with WWE's style after seeing the EC3 and Drew Galloway match tonight
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Aug 25, 2016 23:37:42 GMT -5
I can't complain with WWE's style after seeing the EC3 and Drew Galloway match tonight I've seen it with both promotions. But it just needs to stop and scaled back so fans can appreciate the story being told. One of my favorite selling moments is DDP still selling his injured ribs by wearing a wrap around his midsection. Along with D-Bry coming out with his arm bandaged and chest wrapped after having Hunter destroy him after their match. Some of the best sellers in the business tell the best stories and the best sellers of the past were Flair, Henning, Hunter, Shawn, Bret, Jake The Snake, Hogan(He sells extremely well when not hulking up), Savage, Hall, and the current ones who sell the best now are Ambrose, Rollins, Ziggler, Rusev, Jericho, Owens, Zayn, and AJ. Another great example of selling is Norman Smiley. During his heel run as WCW Hardcore Champion I loved when he would scream ridiculously high whenever he was hit and would still be screaming while crawling in an attempt to get away. Vince needs to stop presenting this as some high budget live action film/ballet demostration and present it as a wrestling show.
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ssdrivin
ALF
Claims to be squishy, has yet to be proven.
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Post by ssdrivin on Aug 26, 2016 2:19:37 GMT -5
I gotta admit, I don't really see the connection between lack of selling and too many highspots? I definitely agree with the point that it's stupid and a dangerous road to go down to have hard chops where the point is "Look, that ACTUALLY hurt in REAL LIFE!" But for some of this, you're blaming the wrong thing. Like, the matches in the CWC have, almost across the board, had AMAZING psychology. Almost every single match has a clearly told story; it's some of the best psychology I've seen in the WWE in years. They also have a billion highspots. The problem with injuries, as others have said, is mostly that the WWE forces people to work all year. There should be mandatory time off with no financial consequences built into people's contracts. I guess my point is that if you have 20 minutes for a match and you properly sell the high spots then there just isn't enough time to cram more in. A superplex should be a big spot that leaves both participants lying on the mat for 30 seconds before the one who delivered it crawls over and throws an arm across his opponent for a close 2 count and then they slowly work their way back to their feet. In all that takes several minutes of a match and builds tension. Currently a superplex takes about 25 seconds from the point of climbing the ropes to when they're back on their feet preparing another high spot. More selling = less necessary high spots in a match = less potential for injury Aside from pacing, I see selling as a way of showing the audience exactly how much a move matters. You can have moves mean something if they're sold afterwards, even moves that present-day WWE presents as run of the mill and boring, and if I see enough basic moves being given the proper aura I don't need to see people throwing themselves off the ropes ten times per match. But there has to be some substance to a match, whether it's selling, high spots, a meaty story, or a straight up beatdown. If things don't mean anything then you have to keep turning up the volume on whatever little there is to see, which is exactly what happened in the Attitude Era - the sex and violence and language wasn't enough, so they had to amp it up, and amp it up, and amp it up, and eventually there was really nowhere else to go. Except this time around it's not about pushing the boundaries of acceptable TV, but the bodies that have to perform it, day in and day out. Now that I think of it in those terms, I wonder if the current generation of young WWE fans will grow up to see the company realise that this style can't be amped any more, and have to watch it all get reset again as those of us who watched Attitude did. Personally I'd give up the high spots altogether (except for special occasions) if it meant less injuries, and I would trade them in an instant for psychology and storytelling I can believe in, and booking that doesn't end up in a confusing and pointless non-sequitur or a fizzled out waste of time. It's just another symptom of whatever the hell WWE thinks it's doing these days with its style. I've become less and less interested in the product since the early 2000s, not just because I was used to the Attitude style, but because it became boring through presentation. During the 2000s they hired a bunch of guys and forgot to give them personalities or roles that matter, they turned the production into over-perfect sterile corporate blandness, and more recently they've given up on telling stories properly altogether. There's no real structure to the roster any more, there's barely any selling in matches and there's rarely a reason to become invested. When they do give me a brief glimmer of a reason to care, they snatch it away at the last minute, and I never get to enjoy the chase, because it's all been nullified by a last minute loss or a screwy finish or a nonsensical ring invasion. You know what one of my favourite matches (possibly the favourite match) of the weekend was? Bayley vs Asuka. I don't even watch NXT regularly, I have no particular investment in Bayley (or Asuka), but they made me care. I was glued to my screen, on the edge of my seat, willing Bayley to win. That was my match of the night. I don't know how, I don't think I can pin down exactly why (at least without going back and analysing it), but what I want to know is this: why can't they do that on the main roster? Why can they do this for a woman I've barely seen on a show I don't follow, but not the flagship(s) full of people I want to cheer (or boo) because I actively like them? I don't understand, with guys like Ambrose, Ziggler, Jericho, Orton, and countless, countless others it should be an absolute doddle.
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Post by Ryushinku on Aug 26, 2016 2:44:20 GMT -5
I've always taken the 'no selling' story with a big pinch of salt. I wonder if it's something where, if the idea hadn't been floated, people would be saying mucb about it at all apart from more than the usual sporadic bits of bad selling.
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ssdrivin
ALF
Claims to be squishy, has yet to be proven.
Posts: 1,041
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Post by ssdrivin on Aug 26, 2016 3:03:40 GMT -5
I've always taken the 'no selling' story with a big pinch of salt. I wonder if it's something where, if the idea hadn't been floated, people would be saying mucb about it at all apart from more than the usual sporadic bits of bad selling. Personally I'm not sure, but even if that specific reason hadn't been pointed out I don't think it would hide the blandness and emptiness of a lot of matches. I can see why some reasoning might be considered overused or unduly focused on, but at the end of the day if the matches didn't weren't so hollow then they might not be so harshly critiqued. Whether it's "they're no-selling", or "this guy can't work", or "5 moves of doom", or "this commentary sucks", or various other points people make, it all adds up to "this product isn't entertaining me, and even I don't specifically know why I'm going to point to some possibilities". At least that's how I currently see it. I have my various complaints too, but there are so many things that niggle me about WWE it's very hard for me to pin down exactly what they all are, because it's a large collection of small things that obscure, mash together, and distort each other. Ultimately something isn't working for me (and other fans) at the moment, and it might as well be no-selling as much as anything else.
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Post by mehmonster on Aug 26, 2016 7:35:26 GMT -5
Ziggler never sells. He bumps. There is a difference.
No matter whay happens to him, he is running and jumping everywhere like nothing happenee. He is as bad as Nakamura.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Aug 26, 2016 7:51:37 GMT -5
The WWE want it both ways, they want their faces to be unstoppable supermen who're also the underdog in peril, they don't sell because they're no longer allowed to so the only way they can look like they're in trouble is if the heel hits them with numerous dangerous looking spots.
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Post by SUN ATTACK on Aug 27, 2016 17:59:12 GMT -5
This is why i still like Undertaker's wrestling, yes, there are lots of finisher kickouts, but even in matches like the one with Shane he kind of tells a story, plus he makes lots of his opponent moves look like they will knock him out, you can have matches with finisher kickouts as long as you are telling a story (the final stretch of Cena vs AJ at summerslam is another good example). The problem is matches like the ones that other guys like Roman and Finn Bálor have with certain opponents where they forget that the opponent worked a part of the guys body yet they manage to do shit that should have lesser impact given the damage they received before, maybe other things that WWE could shift on their style is having "big moves" win guys matches on non-PPV shows (like Cena's Stunner or Reigns powerbombs and shit).
If we go with puro analogies, i would say that the wrestlers try to be Misawa too much, yes, AJPW's Kings Road style had a lot of in-ring storytelling on his matches (which were also pretty spotty), but Misawa was heavily protected on it and he used to only bump (like Ziggler) to those moves, to only no sell the damage of those moves right after and win matches, that's why Kobashi is always my favourite on puro, because he always gave detail on the fact that he looked pretty battered, limping, beaten up or pulling his moves with difficulty after 20 minutes of wrestling other guys, to the point that when he actually wins, i cheer because it looked like his opponent was killing him or ripping his legs off.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Aug 27, 2016 18:51:48 GMT -5
Ziggler never sells. He bumps. There is a difference. Thank you. This is one of those things that irritates the hell out of me.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Aug 28, 2016 20:32:17 GMT -5
In honesty, selling is such a rare art that often now when I see it I assume the person is genuinely injured.
Balor/Rollins hacked me off in that regard. On the one hand, Finn is a legit trooper for doing that match with his screwed up shoulder and went up massively as a performer in my estimation for it. On the other, he's got an ACTUAL injury but no-sells a superplex after a 25 minute gruelling match, every bit as bad a nosell as that ROH gif, and demonstrated again why I can't fully get invested in him or Kevin Owens or others- because they don't tell stories anymore, they just do moves.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 29, 2016 13:59:27 GMT -5
I gotta admit, I don't really see the connection between lack of selling and too many highspots? The only one I can I think of is no selling = more time to fill in the match = more high spots. If you're not down selling something, you've got to be doing something else...
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