Injuries and the Lack of Selling

[celtics543]

I've made this comment in several of the ppv and Raw threads over the last few weeks but I think it deserves it's own thread. Injuries are picking up because no one on the roster sells anything anymore. I'm 28 years old so I grew up at the tail end of Hulkamania, through the Attitude Era, watched all of the Ruthless Aggression, and now into this new era and selling has become a lost art. Back in the day the guys knew how to work holds and wrestle a fairly low impact style that built to one or maybe two high spots in an entire match. They kept the crowd into it by teasing them with potential high spots and then finally "blowing the roof off" by hitting a high spot.

Conversely in the ring today guys are taking insane risks and taking way more of them than at any time in the past. At Summerslam Finn and Seth Rollins had a match that ended with Finn pretty much no-selling a superplex and hitting his finisher 30 seconds later. Why? On what planet is that a good idea? If no one sells the moves being delivered than we're really just watching a choreographed ballet and that sucks. Instead of trying to pack a 20 minute match with 10 high spots each and 3 finisher kick-outs, use some psychology and build up to a couple high spots and then one finisher to end the match.

I understand at a big show, like Wrestlemania or even Summerslam if a main event match features one guy kicking out of a finisher but at this point we have guys in the first match on the card of random Raw's kicking out of finishers. What's the point of having a finishing move if it never beats anyone? Why bother ever putting someone in the Walls of Jericho or hitting the Zig Zag if there's no chance it's going to end a match?

Because no one sells anymore injuries are piling up because now there's so many high spots in a match and everyone wants to wrestle the Japanese hard hitting style. I've heard guys make this point before, most notably Bret Hart, but when you're a pro wrestler and you're actually hurting each other in the ring, who's the mark? There's no reason to actually hit each other with chops or wrestle a "strong style" that actually hurts the other person, it's a show. There's nothing dumber than telling everyone it's fake and then going out there and actually beating the hell out of each other.

So now we have tons of guys and girls on the injured list because wrestling has turned into a high spot fest and features almost zero psychology. No one is selling anything that's being done in the ring and it's killing the business. Most matches are just two people that go out, do a bunch of high spots with no psychology involved and then hit 4 or 5 "finishers" before someone wins. I'm going to sound like a grumpy old man but I'll take Bret vs Bulldog at Wembley, Hogan vs Warrior, Macho vs Steamboat, or really any other match that uses psychology as it's selling point. Steve Austin was great at it too, he would work the crowd incredibly well.

It just seems like for all the talent, athleticism, and creativity today they're really missing that crucial element of selling during matches that gets a crowd to buy in. It's why Daniel Bryan got so over with everyone, he sold his ass off during matches and people believed in what he was doing.

Pretty much the overall point is that if guys would go back to selling and telling a story, then injuries would go way down.

[Deleted]

To the selling comment, it's been reported that officials tell the stars to not sell in matches. It's not their fault, they do want to sell but those in the back tell them to not do it. As stupid as it is, that's what's going on.

[Venti]

I pretty much totally agree with your post. It makes me cringe seeing such painful looking high spots, cause it hurts just to watch, and I fear for these guys' futures. No wonder everyone seems to be having neck problems, concussions, and just overall wear and tear.
And for what? I'm just speaking for myself, but I don't even enjoy the constant high spot style. My attention span is so bad it's hell trying to keep my mind up with the action. And you're right, selling gets wrestlers and the match over. I enjoyed John Cena vs Aj Styles not for the spots, but because they were telling a clear story and emotion seemed to be involved. They could have told the same amazing story without so many spots.

[Muskrat]

Aug 24, 2016 23:38:58 GMT -5 @kn said:

To the selling comment, it's been reported that officials tell the stars to not sell in matches. It's not their fault, they do want to sell but those in the back tell them to not do it. As stupid as it is, that's what's going on.

This is exactly the issue. Ever since the shift to "We're here to put smiles on peoples faces!", they've pretty much dropped the concept of selling. Vince's mindset is that people want to see the wrestlers do their big moves, and fancy entrances and believes that selling takes that away from people. Really backward ass thinking

[celtics543]

Aug 25, 2016 0:00:03 GMT -5 Muskrat said:

Aug 24, 2016 23:38:58 GMT -5 @kn said:

To the selling comment, it's been reported that officials tell the stars to not sell in matches. It's not their fault, they do want to sell but those in the back tell them to not do it. As stupid as it is, that's what's going on.

This is exactly the issue. Ever since the shift to "We're here to put smiles on peoples faces!", they've pretty much dropped the concept of selling. Vince's mindset is that people want to see the wrestlers do their big moves, and fancy entrances and believes that selling takes that away from people. Really backward ass thinking

And that's the biggest problem. They keep banning certain moves because they think they're causing injuries when really it's all the high spots that are the problem. Pile drivers and things like that wouldn't be a huge problem if they were one of only a couple high spots in a match instead of having 5 or 6 huge spots that put the talent in a lot of danger.

Maybe it's just the evolution of wrestler but I don't need to see people doing every single spot they can in every match. Sasha doesn't need to be doing the suicide dive every single time she wrestles. Save it for big moments like Undertaker used to and it becomes really special instead of just being a spot that has a high probability of disaster that fans don't care about because you're doing it every week.

[Ricky Nightshade]

Gotta give the people their money's worth, goddamit! Who cares if they took your leg out before the match, I want FLIPS GODDAMIT!

[mehmonster]

The audience starts boring chants and smarky "headlock city" chants the moment someone does a rest hold. The NXT audience did that annoying Family Guy thing when someone sold a knee injury. I'm not totally surprised if WWE really does this now. Selling causes more problems than it fixes in their eyes.

It is dumb but not a surprise anymore.

[thecrusherwi]

Very much agree with the OP. It sounds alarmist, but I believe this high spot style, that is being used basically everywhere these days, is a serious threat to the wrestling business' future and longevity. Having people go out there and do moves that have little to no semblance of a coherent "story" in an environment where the show itself heavily implies it's fake will only ever appeal to a very small group of people. Yes it takes some impressive athleticism and everyone can recognize that. But with no selling and no story in the matches, it becomes like an Olympic sport to all but the most hardcore fans: it's cool to look at for a while, but after you see the person jump of the high dive or do the pole vault a few times, it's really not that compelling and it doesn't bother you that you only see it once every 4 years. Wrestling's fanbase seems to be shrinking to a niche of the original pro wrestling niche. And I think the way they structure matches is the reason why.

[Session Moth is over]

Watch Owen vs Bret as Wrestlemania 10. This is only one example but one I like to use. A slow pace match, hardly a risky spot to be seen yet it's one of the all time best matches in WWE.

Great opening post, I've felt like this for a long time. Matches are too fast paced, no selling and too many big spots.

[Emmet Russell]

The best sellers are the heels.

Look at Rusev lately: selling his ribs to perfection, and for more than just one show. A week later, its still affecting his matches. Roman gets beat up and it's not even a SEGMENT before he's recovered and ready to go. Another heel who sold well: Jericho, after the tack spot, had his whole back bandaged, sold it through his whole match. Still won. Made to seem valiant...

Rusev is my go to guy for this, because last year when he won a triple threat match to earn a shot at Cena's title right away, he didn't just instantly recover and work like a heel - he sold exhaustion, and managed to almost win with a desperation submission attempt. Staying the course, making his matches mean something. Rusev is fantastic at selling... it's just a shame he's a heel.

We'll always love Ru Ru though.

[Dub H]

Aug 25, 2016 7:34:24 GMT -5 Emmet Russell said:

The best sellers are the heels.

Look at Rusev lately: selling his ribs to perfection, and for more than just one show. A week later, its still affecting his matches. Roman gets beat up and it's not even a SEGMENT before he's recovered and ready to go. Another heel who sold well: Jericho, after the tack spot, had his whole back bandaged, sold it through his whole match. Still won. Made to seem valiant...

Rusev is my go to guy for this, because last year when he won a triple threat match to earn a shot at Cena's title right away, he didn't just instantly recover and work like a heel - he sold exhaustion, and managed to almost win with a desperation submission attempt. Staying the course, making his matches mean something. Rusev is fantastic at selling... it's just a shame he's a heel.

We'll always love Ru Ru though.

thing is ,if he was a face , they would tell him to not sell

[Emmet Russell]

Aug 25, 2016 7:37:53 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Aug 25, 2016 7:34:24 GMT -5 Emmet Russell said:

The best sellers are the heels.

Look at Rusev lately: selling his ribs to perfection, and for more than just one show. A week later, its still affecting his matches. Roman gets beat up and it's not even a SEGMENT before he's recovered and ready to go. Another heel who sold well: Jericho, after the tack spot, had his whole back bandaged, sold it through his whole match. Still won. Made to seem valiant...

Rusev is my go to guy for this, because last year when he won a triple threat match to earn a shot at Cena's title right away, he didn't just instantly recover and work like a heel - he sold exhaustion, and managed to almost win with a desperation submission attempt. Staying the course, making his matches mean something. Rusev is fantastic at selling... it's just a shame he's a heel.

We'll always love Ru Ru though.

thing is ,if he was a face , they would tell him to not sell

What confusing logic this company has.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

It's interesting to see how opinions have changed in terms of what many of us want from our wrestling matches nowadays. Like, years ago we had our safe main events in WWE with selling and minimal highspots with the likes of Cena (OK, asterisk on the selling thing for him), Orton, Triple H, Edge, Batista, etc, and we'd end up looking longingly over at what the likes of TNA and Ring Of Honor were doing where they were just hitting insane moves on each other and thinking... "Can we get some of that in WWE, please?". So, eventually, WWE builds a roster featuring wrestlers from that kind of background, like Bryan, Cesaro, Rollins, Styles, Ambrose, etc, and they, along with someone like Cena who has basically become one of those guys trying to keep up with them, have upped the stakes to such an extent where we're here years later, and it almost seems like the shoe is on the other foot where we're looking at the matches in WWE and thinking... "OK, maybe this is TOO much now". You could say the same about their recruitment, where the pendulum has swung almost completely from a "cradle to grave" homegrown focus to a focus on experienced hands from the indies.

This isn't calling anyone hypocrites for changing their minds over time as injuries and retirements have piled up to seemingly unprecedented levels. I just think it's an interesting observation to make.

[mehmonster]

I havent swung. I still prefer this style. The difference is ROH didn't tell talent not to sell.

The "Golden Age" of ROH with Joe, Punk, Bryan, Aries, etc. all had selling with the workrate. Gabe never said ignore the impact like WWE apparently do. That and ROH weren't four days a week, every week.

Those are the issues, not the style.

[HMARK Center]

Aug 25, 2016 0:00:03 GMT -5 Muskrat said:

Aug 24, 2016 23:38:58 GMT -5 @kn said:

To the selling comment, it's been reported that officials tell the stars to not sell in matches. It's not their fault, they do want to sell but those in the back tell them to not do it. As stupid as it is, that's what's going on.

This is exactly the issue. Ever since the shift to "We're here to put smiles on peoples faces!", they've pretty much dropped the concept of selling. Vince's mindset is that people want to see the wrestlers do their big moves, and fancy entrances and believes that selling takes that away from people. Really backward ass thinking

A lot of that can be traced to a WWE style that has basically turned going to a live TV event into a chance for the audience to pop for the opening three seconds of somebody's theme music, to chant along with somebody's catchphrase, and then sit on their hands until somebody hits a notable finisher. Wrestling fans have always done something like those things, but the structure of WWE shows over the years has actively cultivated these call and response methods with their audience, and now they're about the only way to grab attention, it seems.

There are a lot of interesting points being brought up here, not the least of which include that WWE really does not build babyfaces very well on the main roster, especially given the "don't sell too much" edict. Bret Hart made part of his career off of convincing the audience that his knee had blown out midmatch but that he could persevere through the pain and still win; Daniel Bryan got knocked on his ass again and again but kept getting up, and he became the hottest act in the company in over a decade. But Vince has had it in his head for a long time that heroes don't show weakness, must be the coolest guys in the room, and that only weak, cowardly heels ever show they've been hurt by something; see the way Cena has been booked for the vast majority of his time on top of the company. It's ass backwards, really.

Plus, to repeat something I said in the thread about Bret's recent Rollins criticisms, there's the simple reality that marrying the "ROH style" of working with WWE's batshit insane work schedule just doesn't seem to mesh very well. I hate to sound like a broken record by bringing up puro so much on this topic, but go and watch the three day final of the G1 Climax tournament from this year, and you'll see main event matches (Marufuji vs. Goto, Tanahashi vs. Okada, Omega vs. Naito, Omega vs. Goto) that were filled with big spots, finisher kickouts, "fighting spirit", and guys looking like they were going to keel over in the ring. Catch is, G1 is basically the second biggest time of the year for New Japan, next to the January 4th Tokyo Dome shows, so if you're going to incorporate big spots and a lot of kickouts, that's the time of year to do it.

However, also take note of the stories being told in most of those matches, especially if you're familiar with the wrestlers involved in each match and what their characters have gone through during the past year or so. They're there, and they're done pretty spectacularly, leading to widespread acclaim and a lot of 4-5 star ratings for the final matches: Kenny Omega emerging as a star and the new top gaijin by slamming the door shut on his and his stable's past, Hirooki Goto inching toward overcoming his "can't win the big one" demons but allowing himself to fall back onto his reliance on his older moves that never won him the big gold, Okada and Tanahashi in their eternal struggle to be the ace of the company, etc.

As said above, go back and watch "Golden Age" ROH shows featuring guys like Samoa Joe, CM Punk, Bryan Danielson, Homicide, et. al., and see how the hard hitting action isn't a substitute for storytelling, instead it serves as a compliment. Those guys made great use of even small facial expressions to get across a match's story or the story of a larger feud they were involved in, and while moves like Low Ki's double stomp or Austin Aries brainbuster/450 combo were awesome, they weren't always the crux of why people grew so attached to those shows and those wrestlers.

Point is, that style can work perfectly well, but there's a catch: if you work New Japan, you wrestle on a tour for awhile but then get days off before the start of a new one. If you worked ROH back then, you worked around 30 shows a year for them, and even today with ROH's bigger schedule it's still nowhere near as hectic as WWE's, as TV tapings are for hour long shows that often don't involve "main event" level matches, since those are saved for bigger weekend cards.

Kenny Omega's last two G1 matches were brutal, hard hitting affairs, but afterward Kenny got to fly home, relax for a few days, work for a North American indy if he chose to, and when he gets back to Japan in September he'll start out wrestling 6 man tag matches so that he can be one of the stars on the card without having to bump so much, before building to one big singles match he'll be having against YOSHI HASHI.

Good luck with that in WWE, where there are more miles to travel (which can be hell if you're banged up), more continents to visit, more TV to film, more singles matches on your TV and house show schedule, flat-out more house shows, but less tag matches to reduce your bumping, less consecutive days off to let your bumps and bruises heal a bit (this goes a long way toward keeping guys from favoring an aching body part, as that contributes big time to injuries on other body parts that compensate for it), and not surprisingly, the injury body count begins to pile up, especially considering that guys like Seth Rollins, AJ Styles, and others from the early-to-mid 00s indy scene aren't exactly kids anymore, they've got wear and tear.

To me, this means WWE has to make a choice: either scale back the style, maybe only saving it for the biggest cards of the year, or work to change the way they present themselves by shaping shows to take better care of the wrestlers: go ahead and book more tag matches, don't have guys go out and kill themselves on house shows, let people have some regular time off, put people on certain house show/TV circuits that don't involve so much travel, just start taking into consideration that you can't really have your cake and eat it, too, without there being some very dangerous potential health consequences for your roster.

[r.]

This is why I find it refreshing when I see sami sell so well in the ring people in the thread think it's a real injury

[Hickster]

Aug 25, 2016 7:10:37 GMT -5 Session Moth is over said:

Watch Owen vs Bret as Wrestlemania 10. This is only one example but one I like to use. A slow pace match, hardly a risky spot to be seen yet it's one of the all time best matches in WWE.

Great opening post, I've felt like this for a long time. Matches are too fast paced, no selling and too many big spots.

I agree-actually I agree with probably 95% of this entire thread.


The first time I was pissed as a wrestling fan was when Road Warrior Hawk no sold a piledriver. Now I see that sort of crap all the time.

Then Bailey wins a match with a belly-to-belly suplex, and who is more over than she is?

[Magnus the Magnificent]

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

I gotta admit, I don't really see the connection between lack of selling and too many highspots? I definitely agree with the point that it's stupid and a dangerous road to go down to have hard chops where the point is "Look, that ACTUALLY hurt in REAL LIFE!" But for some of this, you're blaming the wrong thing.
Like, the matches in the CWC have, almost across the board, had AMAZING psychology. Almost every single match has a clearly told story; it's some of the best psychology I've seen in the WWE in years. They also have a billion highspots.

The problem with injuries, as others have said, is mostly that the WWE forces people to work all year. There should be mandatory time off with no financial consequences built into people's contracts.

[celtics543]

Aug 25, 2016 10:24:47 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

I gotta admit, I don't really see the connection between lack of selling and too many highspots? I definitely agree with the point that it's stupid and a dangerous road to go down to have hard chops where the point is "Look, that ACTUALLY hurt in REAL LIFE!" But for some of this, you're blaming the wrong thing.
Like, the matches in the CWC have, almost across the board, had AMAZING psychology. Almost every single match has a clearly told story; it's some of the best psychology I've seen in the WWE in years. They also have a billion highspots.

The problem with injuries, as others have said, is mostly that the WWE forces people to work all year. There should be mandatory time off with no financial consequences built into people's contracts.

I guess my point is that if you have 20 minutes for a match and you properly sell the high spots then there just isn't enough time to cram more in. A superplex should be a big spot that leaves both participants lying on the mat for 30 seconds before the one who delivered it crawls over and throws an arm across his opponent for a close 2 count and then they slowly work their way back to their feet. In all that takes several minutes of a match and builds tension. Currently a superplex takes about 25 seconds from the point of climbing the ropes to when they're back on their feet preparing another high spot.

More selling = less necessary high spots in a match = less potential for injury