Smart Marks are ruining The Business? RS

[StuntGranny®]

WWE:

[Hit Girl]

WWE: "We are now in the reality era!"

Fans: "WWE should stop forcing their preferred booking when it goes against fan reactions"

WWE: "You stupid smarks!"

[The Dark Order Inferno]

You can't decry fans on the internet at a point where your entire business model is heavily reliant on fans with internet access paying $9.99 a month.

[A Platypus Rave]

I'm pretty sure this was a joke thread with the first post removed...

[Deleted]

I'm surprised that there was never a jobber named Mark Smart.

[Reflecto]

Nov 16, 2016 8:25:12 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

You can't decry fans on the internet at a point where your entire business model is heavily reliant on fans with internet access paying $9.99 a month.

But that is also the same problem as well: Decrying fans on the Internet when you need Internet fans to pay $9.99 a month is not the problem.

The problem comes when those same fans have also decided the show is made up and the points don't matter. No storylines, no angles...and MAYBE, sometimes, a fun gimmick might count, but even then only rarely, matter to make a star. All that matters is:

"we like this person. Push them. Give them the world. Do it."
"Can we at least make a long-running, overarching storyline designed to make this person a superstar and eventually give them a Wrestlemania moment..."
"BUT WE WANT IT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW! Have them win the title on the next TV show with no build up!"
"That's a little bit of a quick turnaround- can we at least do the next PPV"
"NOW!"
"Fine..." *they win the title*
"There. They're the champion, now. They're a little lower than they could be, they won't get to be a huge star like they could be with buildup, but they're the champion now and you got what you wanted. Will you at least cheer them..."
"YES! That shit was so cash...Now do THIS PERSON!"

[Hit Girl]

Nov 16, 2016 14:02:05 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Nov 16, 2016 8:25:12 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

You can't decry fans on the internet at a point where your entire business model is heavily reliant on fans with internet access paying $9.99 a month.

But that is also the same problem as well: Decrying fans on the Internet when you need Internet fans to pay $9.99 a month is not the problem.

The problem comes when those same fans have also decided the show is made up and the points don't matter. No storylines, no angles...and MAYBE, sometimes, a fun gimmick might count, but even then only rarely, matter to make a star. All that matters is:

"we like this person. Push them. Give them the world. Do it."
"Can we at least make a long-running, overarching storyline designed to make this person a superstar and eventually give them a Wrestlemania moment..."
"BUT WE WANT IT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW! Have them win the title on the next TV show with no build up!"
"That's a little bit of a quick turnaround- can we at least do the next PPV"
"NOW!"
"Fine..." *they win the title*
"There. They're the champion, now. They're a little lower than they could be, they won't get to be a huge star like they could be with buildup, but they're the champion now and you got what you wanted. Will you at least cheer them..."
"YES! That shit was so cash...Now do THIS PERSON!"

It goes more like this:

WWE: "No. We're going to go with a badly written, contrived and illogical long-running, directionless, forced storyline, designed to impose this other person as a superstar because we think he should be, culminating in a shoehorned Wrestlemania moment we'll beat you over the head with for months in recap after recap, despite the fact the fan reactions are the exact opposite to what we'd prefer them to be"

[TWERKIN' MAGGLE]

Nov 16, 2016 14:02:05 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Nov 16, 2016 8:25:12 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

You can't decry fans on the internet at a point where your entire business model is heavily reliant on fans with internet access paying $9.99 a month.

But that is also the same problem as well: Decrying fans on the Internet when you need Internet fans to pay $9.99 a month is not the problem.

The problem comes when those same fans have also decided the show is made up and the points don't matter. No storylines, no angles...and MAYBE, sometimes, a fun gimmick might count, but even then only rarely, matter to make a star. All that matters is:

"we like this person. Push them. Give them the world. Do it."
"Can we at least make a long-running, overarching storyline designed to make this person a superstar and eventually give them a Wrestlemania moment..."
"BUT WE WANT IT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW! Have them win the title on the next TV show with no build up!"
"That's a little bit of a quick turnaround- can we at least do the next PPV"
"NOW!"
"Fine..." *they win the title*
"There. They're the champion, now. They're a little lower than they could be, they won't get to be a huge star like they could be with buildup, but they're the champion now and you got what you wanted. Will you at least cheer them..."
"YES! That shit was so cash...Now do THIS PERSON!"

Except their slow burn stories suck.

So, I don't feel bad for poor little WWE being picked on those mean ol' paying customers.

[Stu]

Yeah, how about we limit all complaints about the general product to this thread? Yeah, that'd be great. A good, ol' fashion mega thread. Yeah.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Nov 16, 2016 14:02:05 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Nov 16, 2016 8:25:12 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

You can't decry fans on the internet at a point where your entire business model is heavily reliant on fans with internet access paying $9.99 a month.

But that is also the same problem as well: Decrying fans on the Internet when you need Internet fans to pay $9.99 a month is not the problem.

The problem comes when those same fans have also decided the show is made up and the points don't matter. No storylines, no angles...and MAYBE, sometimes, a fun gimmick might count, but even then only rarely, matter to make a star. All that matters is:

"we like this person. Push them. Give them the world. Do it."
"Can we at least make a long-running, overarching storyline designed to make this person a superstar and eventually give them a Wrestlemania moment..."
"BUT WE WANT IT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW! Have them win the title on the next TV show with no build up!"
"That's a little bit of a quick turnaround- can we at least do the next PPV"
"NOW!"
"Fine..." *they win the title*
"There. They're the champion, now. They're a little lower than they could be, they won't get to be a huge star like they could be with buildup, but they're the champion now and you got what you wanted. Will you at least cheer them..."
"YES! That shit was so cash...Now do THIS PERSON!"

When does this happen? Come on now. It took months of rebellion and a few show hijacks to get the office to actually be willing to push Daniel Bryan, and the reason your strawman argument sucks is that the whole "WE WANT THIS GUY PUSH THIS GUY" isn't something the audience has really gotten against the wishes of the office since. The Shield guys were pegged as the future of the company from the moment they showed up (but it took the most over face of the bunch the longest to get the world title), Finn and Owens were both hand-picked stars in NXT, and AJ is being paid too much money not to get pushed to the level he's at. Nobody has been crowned world champion without the full blessing of the people writing the show.

[Reflecto]

Nov 16, 2016 15:24:11 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

When does this happen? Come on now. It took months of rebellion and a few show hijacks to get the office to actually be willing to push Daniel Bryan, and the reason your strawman argument sucks is that the whole "WE WANT THIS GUY PUSH THIS GUY" isn't something the audience has really gotten against the wishes of the office since. The Shield guys were pegged as the future of the company from the moment they showed up (but it took the most over face of the bunch the longest to get the world title), Finn and Owens were both hand-picked stars in NXT, and AJ is being paid too much money not to get pushed to the level he's at. Nobody has been crowned world champion without the full blessing of the people writing the show.

Even then, that just is part of the argument as well because even if you say those have a reason, it doesn't change that they are examples.

The "WE WANT THIS GUY PUSH THIS GUY" thing IS something that the audience has gotten against the wishes of the audience since then. A lot. Heck, James Ellsworth is a regular on Smackdown and probably got a contract and is running around main events solely based on "WE WANT THIS GUY PUSH THIS GUY" despite solely being used in a jobber squash once and having it be fun. Literally the only truly good example of "the crowd didn't get what they wanted" eventually since the Daniel Bryan debacle was Cesaro- and the crowd also proved, many many times, that they didn't REALLY want Cesaro as much as the smarks CLAIM they wanted Cesaro and that the casual WWE fans could not give a shit about him.

Even if the Shield guys are pegged as the future of the company, you still have the same point: You have Kevin Owens and AJ Styles as the World Champions right now, with Finn Balor supposed to be the champ until an injury. Dean Ambrose and Seth Rollins are their most regular challengers...and yet somehow, it's still a case of "WWE won't give us what we want!" in a level that goes past "WWE won't give the smart marks what they want" and outright "what the smart marks TRULY WANT is something to complain about and whine that the smart marks will never get what they want"- and since WWE has given fans so much of what they want, then it's almost a checkmate to the point of anything WWE does to give the smarks what they want WILL be wrong because they want EVERYTHING, AT ONCE.

Even if Kevin Owens is Universal Champ and they turned Seth Rollins face to accommodate it (like the fans wanted?) They'll still whine because it's not Owens and Zayn fighting forever and climaxing with fighting for the WWE Universal Title at Wrestlemania...even though the fans got Owens and Zayn fighting forever earlier this year, and it bombed hard, with those same fans whining that the Owens/Zayn feud was holding Kevin Owens back and he should be fighting for the World Championship. And even if they did all that and it's a long con building to that...? Well, Zayn was also a "hand-picked star in NXT", so it wouldn't count, would it?

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Ellsworth isn't the fans demanding a main event push for him, it's WWE riding the mild wave of interest and ironic cheers into some t-shirt sales while they fill time. At best, Ellsworth becomes the new Brooklyn Brawler once the dust settles.

My point wasn't "WWE won't give us what they want, they only pushed guys they wanted to push". Kevin Owens and AJ Styles are both over, the crowd was going nuts for Finn when he was winning, and Ambrose has been super over the whole time. My point is that what you're saying happens isn't something happening. People aren't just dragging WWE time and again into demanded pushes that WWE resignedly gives in and then finds that people have moved on to care about someone else instead; everyone that is over with the average internet fan on that list is someone who the office wanted to push anyone, not somebody who the fans made them push through angry tantrums. There was no "we want it now give him the title on TV" thing. It's not a "We didn't demand them to do this so it's not pure" rejection of the fact that Owens was booked to win the title without having Vince held at gunpoint, it's that what people want is rarely ever something that seems to be a factor.

I don't know what world you're living in where goddamn everybody wants nothing but Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens fighting every show; I saw a whole lot more complaints around here about Sami and Owens being drafted to the same show than anything about the fact that they aren't locked in an eternal struggle You're colouring an entire segment of the audience with a single opinion and then decrying them for having attitudes and doing things that aren't actually happening. Your strawman is not there.

[Starshine]

Nov 16, 2016 14:02:05 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Nov 16, 2016 8:25:12 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

You can't decry fans on the internet at a point where your entire business model is heavily reliant on fans with internet access paying $9.99 a month.

But that is also the same problem as well: Decrying fans on the Internet when you need Internet fans to pay $9.99 a month is not the problem.

The problem comes when those same fans have also decided the show is made up and the points don't matter. No storylines, no angles...and MAYBE, sometimes, a fun gimmick might count, but even then only rarely, matter to make a star. All that matters is:

"we like this person. Push them. Give them the world. Do it."
"Can we at least make a long-running, overarching storyline designed to make this person a superstar and eventually give them a Wrestlemania moment..."
"BUT WE WANT IT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW! Have them win the title on the next TV show with no build up!"
"That's a little bit of a quick turnaround- can we at least do the next PPV"
"NOW!"
"Fine..." *they win the title*
"There. They're the champion, now. They're a little lower than they could be, they won't get to be a huge star like they could be with buildup, but they're the champion now and you got what you wanted. Will you at least cheer them..."
"YES! That shit was so cash...Now do THIS PERSON!"

But there's more evidence that supports the alternative, that fans generally are willing to give a show a chance when they're engaged by what they're presented. It's why SmackDown is almost universally loved right now, going as far as to help make the Miz a more legitimate star, despite being persona non grata for the better part of the last 5 years.

[Reflecto]

Nov 16, 2016 16:49:30 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

Ellsworth isn't the fans demanding a main event push for him, it's WWE riding the mild wave of interest and ironic cheers into some t-shirt sales while they fill time. At best, Ellsworth becomes the new Brooklyn Brawler once the dust settles.

My point wasn't "WWE won't give us what they want, they only pushed guys they wanted to push". Kevin Owens and AJ Styles are both over, the crowd was going nuts for Finn when he was winning, and Ambrose has been super over the whole time. My point is that what you're saying happens isn't something happening. People aren't just dragging WWE time and again into demanded pushes that WWE resignedly gives in and then finds that people have moved on to care about someone else instead; everyone that is over with the average internet fan on that list is someone who the office wanted to push anyone, not somebody who the fans made them push through angry tantrums. There was no "we want it now give him the title on TV" thing. It's not a "We didn't demand them to do this so it's not pure" rejection of the fact that Owens was booked to win the title without having Vince held at gunpoint, it's that what people want is rarely ever something that seems to be a factor.

I don't know what world you're living in where goddamn everybody wants nothing but Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens fighting every show; I saw a whole lot more complaints around here about Sami and Owens being drafted to the same show than anything about the fact that they aren't locked in an eternal struggle You're colouring an entire segment of the audience with a single opinion and then decrying them for having attitudes and doing things that aren't actually happening. Your strawman is not there.

Those are some fair points, but even then there's a similar example that makes this a problem and really hurts things:

Happy people don't complain, and in general, the "smart marks" tend to like pretty much EVERYONE. There are some unpopular people, and everyone has their own personal likes and dislikes- but as a general thing, the talent level of WWE is such that even the worst person on the WWE main roster is at least "perfectly acceptable to be on a wrestling program at a national level" (with even people assumed to be THE WORST on the roster before the brand extension- Braun Strowman and Eva Marie- at least ending up as "well, they're not good, but it's not like they have no business being in a wrestling ring either") and there's very, very few people who the smarks would outright riot if they got a push.

This is a huge positive for the smart marks in theory- they like everyone, they respect everyone...but since "happy people don't complain", it's a vicious cycle, because the endgame invariably becomes:

Someone gets a push to the top. Their fans are happy.

Since they're at the top? Someone else isn't. THEIR fans are unhappy. Their fans complain and whine and cry and hijack until their favorite gets to be the top star...and because most performers DO have some semblance of a following with the majority of the fans, eventually the happy people will take the side of 'push this person too!'...and if that leads to their favorite losing the title too early, then people will just complain their hero was buried by the short reign, and demand him get the title again- while other fans of a THIRD person complain THEY didn't get it, and so on, and so forth.