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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jan 4, 2017 19:55:22 GMT -5
Because in 5-10 years when the bubble bursts from the Network, they'll all be sitting there with their collective dicks in their hands wondering what went wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 20:00:39 GMT -5
No industry has more contempt for its own fanbase than wrestling. Until they retire or fall out with WWE. Then they become the fanbases best friend "please sign an autograph, come to my wrestling school/indie, listen to my podcast, buy my book/t-shirt ect ect". Sorry, not interested.
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Post by captainhindsite on Jan 4, 2017 20:01:05 GMT -5
It's not like we're not allowed to bitch. Who cares what they have to say about it at least they hear it.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 4, 2017 20:04:54 GMT -5
I think the issue is that the fans never stop complaining. I don't know any other fandom that is never happy with what they are fans of like WWE. The fans are passionate but never seem to be happy or even close to satisfied. I imagine as someone busting their ass to give the fans a good show that it gets a bit old.
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Post by Ecks Ecks Ringout Ecks Ecks on Jan 4, 2017 20:51:56 GMT -5
Lots of wrestlers have a severe casee of insecure dickheaditus. It's a horrible disease. Al Snow personifies this for me, though there are plenty of others. What they need to understand is that negative feedback from the fans is no different than critiquing a movie, book, song or any other creative work. We don't need to be involved in the associated industry in order to validate our comments on things we dislike. If something doesn't work for the audience, it doesn't work, no further justification is needed. I think some of the pushback comes from the modern wrestling product being so rigid and overproduced compared to what it used to be. We're long past the days where the style, length and result of a match might be changed on the fly due to the reaction of the crowd, and as a result, many of today's performers don't have the same ability to keep their fingers on the pulse of the fans. They're neither taught nor allowed to adapt, and it breeds defensiveness. Some wrestlers still have that talent, and will take advantage of their status as draws to break from the company line. John Cena comes to mind, from the piledriver in one of his matches with Punk, to the "sometimes we hit, sometimes we miss" tweet after Royal Rumble '15. Unfortunately, it's becoming an increasingly lost art.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Jan 4, 2017 23:42:38 GMT -5
I think the issue is that the fans never stop complaining. I don't know any other fandom that is never happy with what they are fans of like WWE. The fans are passionate but never seem to be happy or even close to satisfied. I imagine as someone busting their ass to give the fans a good show that it gets a bit old. Yeah, it does get a bit tiresome to hear the same people saying the same crap about the product week in and week out. If you're hate watching ANY company/show, whether it's WWE, TNA, or whoever, then maybe you need to take a good look in the mirror, and realize that maybe there's more important things you could be doing with your life than watching a show that's going to piss you off 85-90% of the time.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 4, 2017 23:58:21 GMT -5
I think the issue is that the fans never stop complaining. I don't know any other fandom that is never happy with what they are fans of like WWE. The fans are passionate but never seem to be happy or even close to satisfied. I imagine as someone busting their ass to give the fans a good show that it gets a bit old. Yeah, it does get a bit tiresome to hear the same people saying the same crap about the product week in and week out. If you're hate watching ANY company/show, whether it's WWE, TNA, or whoever, then maybe you need to take a good look in the mirror, and realize that maybe there's more important things you could be doing with your life than watching a show that's going to piss you off 85-90% of the time. I feel like a lot of modern fans think hate watching wrestling and endlessly pulling apart every negative detail is what the wrestling experience is suppoded to be. Pro wrestling was never intended to be watched in that manner. I think the wrong things are being focused on. I don't think the bad is as offensive as people make it out to be.
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Post by bearned on Jan 4, 2017 23:59:03 GMT -5
I think the problem is that we all complain and nobody listens. If there was a consistent level of acknowledgement that 'hey this ain't working, we'll change it' rather than the usual 'we'll just keep doing it until we wear you down' (see Roman Reigns) then we might all get along.
The Bryan run to mania and beating HHH etc is a good example of how good stuff can be when they actually do take on board fan sentiment.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Jan 5, 2017 0:12:56 GMT -5
Yeah, it does get a bit tiresome to hear the same people saying the same crap about the product week in and week out. If you're hate watching ANY company/show, whether it's WWE, TNA, or whoever, then maybe you need to take a good look in the mirror, and realize that maybe there's more important things you could be doing with your life than watching a show that's going to piss you off 85-90% of the time. I feel like a lot of modern fans think hate watching wrestling and endlessly pulling apart every negative detail is what the wrestling experience is suppoded to be. Pro wrestling was never intended to be watched in that manner. I think the wrong things are being focused on. I don't think the bad is as offensive as people make it out to be. Sadly, it's not just wrestling. We've just become so spoiled with getting what we want and getting it YESTERDAY(!!!) that we've become nitpicky little douches that just sap the fun out of everything we just used to simply.....y'know....enjoy. I mean, think about any movie that comes out now. No matter how good it is, it's not long before some smart ass has made a You Tube video pointing out every flaw in the movie, no matter how minor. "No, I don't want to know everything that was wrong with STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE. I thought it was a fun movie, and I don't need my fun picked apart by some loser that wants to feel superior to the product."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 0:24:25 GMT -5
No industry has more contempt for its own fanbase than wrestling. I think the issue is that the fans never stop complaining. I don't know any other fandom that is never happy with what they are fans of like WWE. The fans are passionate but never seem to be happy or even close to satisfied. I imagine as someone busting their ass to give the fans a good show that it gets a bit old. I think we're onto something. But yeah it's actually kind of amazing how WWE had to be forced to push Daniel Bryan but at the same time the amount of people who hate watch WWE every week and Vince still finds a way to make money out of the fans who may have quit watching Raw with Smackdown/NXT/205 Live and still get them coming to see the Big 4 PPV's live or on The Network.
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Reflecto
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The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 5, 2017 0:45:31 GMT -5
No industry has more contempt for its own fanbase than wrestling. I think the issue is that the fans never stop complaining. I don't know any other fandom that is never happy with what they are fans of like WWE. The fans are passionate but never seem to be happy or even close to satisfied. I imagine as someone busting their ass to give the fans a good show that it gets a bit old. I think we're onto something. But yeah it's actually kind of amazing how WWE had to be forced to push Daniel Bryan but at the same time the amount of people who hate watch WWE every week and Vince still finds a way to make money out of the fans who may have quit watching Raw with Smackdown/NXT/205 Live and still get them coming to see the Big 4 PPV's live or on The Network. This, because it really does go both ways. If the WWE refuses to ever give the fans what they want, and keep the pre-IWC viewpoint that the fans are idiots who should spoonfeed in everything they choose to give you and beg for more? Then you have an issue and the fans need to get some of what they want. ...BUT, at the same time, when the fans DO get what they want, and instead of being happy they get what they wanted, they just move on to the next thing on their list and whine about that instead? It's not hard to see why WWE would think that these fans will never be satisfied and stop listening.
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Post by xCompackx on Jan 5, 2017 0:57:03 GMT -5
I think we're onto something. But yeah it's actually kind of amazing how WWE had to be forced to push Daniel Bryan but at the same time the amount of people who hate watch WWE every week and Vince still finds a way to make money out of the fans who may have quit watching Raw with Smackdown/NXT/205 Live and still get them coming to see the Big 4 PPV's live or on The Network. This, because it really does go both ways. If the WWE refuses to ever give the fans what they want, and keep the pre-IWC viewpoint that the fans are idiots who should spoonfeed in everything they choose to give you and beg for more? Then you have an issue and the fans need to get some of what they want. ...BUT, at the same time, when the fans DO get what they want, and instead of being happy they get what they wanted, they just move on to the next thing on their list and whine about that instead? It's not hard to see why WWE would think that these fans will never be satisfied and stop listening. Fair point, and they'll never be able to satisfy every single person, but I do think that because wrestling is a never-ending machine, there has to be a much higher emphasis on keeping fans happy. Listen to what the crowds are saying and react accordingly. If someone needs to be turned or have their character tweaked in some fashion, try it and see how it works at a house show; you can get away with some crazy shit there.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
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Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 5, 2017 1:04:26 GMT -5
This, because it really does go both ways. If the WWE refuses to ever give the fans what they want, and keep the pre-IWC viewpoint that the fans are idiots who should spoonfeed in everything they choose to give you and beg for more? Then you have an issue and the fans need to get some of what they want. ...BUT, at the same time, when the fans DO get what they want, and instead of being happy they get what they wanted, they just move on to the next thing on their list and whine about that instead? It's not hard to see why WWE would think that these fans will never be satisfied and stop listening. Fair point, and they'll never be able to satisfy every single person, but I do think that because wrestling is a never-ending machine, there has to be a much higher emphasis on keeping fans happy. Listen to what the crowds are saying and react accordingly. If someone needs to be turned or have their character tweaked in some fashion, try it and see how it works at a house show; you can get away with some crazy shit there. Absolutely- but there should be a little bit of a grace period for these things as well. I remember distinctly- one of my longtime friends happened to be a reviewer for a board around the time of the YES! Movement, and one thing he said to me in passing from this was simple: "Can't WWE see if they give us Daniel Bryan, we'll give them Roman Reigns?" That theory made sense. He was DEAD WRONG. They gave us Daniel Bryan, and not only did we did not give them Roman Reigns in the least, we didn't even manage to be happy they gave us Daniel Bryan- within 24 hours the reaction was basically "that shit was great. NOW DO CESARO!" Keeping fans happy is the primary goal- but there should be at least a LITTLE BIT of a grace period when the fans finally get what they wanted. By contrast, there's a switchover within a couple weeks to demanding something else than that...if not outright turning on the person now that we finally got them (looking in your direction, Zack Ryder...)
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Post by CertifiedBA on Jan 5, 2017 1:18:10 GMT -5
Nothing. Nothing goes everyone's way all the time either. I haven't been overly into WWE for months, but I'm not complaining about it. I am still content going to live WWE shows that come around to the area and hit up local indies semi-frequently and I'm fine with it. If I find myself complaining more than not, I just step back from it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 1:30:51 GMT -5
They're the WWE, they're the MAJOR LEAGUE, they are all-knowing, and you will damn well enjoy whatever they feed you. But seriously, it's a load of shit that we as fans aren't allowed to criticize/debate angles or wrestlers. I hate when wrestlers throw out the "YOU DON'T WRESTLE, SO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE US!" I instantly lose respect for any wrestler who drops that shit. Tommy End dropped it on Twitter a couple of days ago. It's just a silly, stupid argument. The next 10 seconds in this video is my go-to now whenever people bring that up.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,077
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 5, 2017 1:45:59 GMT -5
It's worth noting that, especially in the case of Heyman, dude's been part of wrestling for the majority of his life. It's inevitably going to be personal for him. It's more than a little silly, and he ought to temper his responses, but it'd be like if you were reading reviews of your kid's play and they were all about how much they sucked. Thing is, he couldn't even answer the question in any way, he had to shift the argument. "3 hours makes the quality suffer" "It makes money" "But it makes it worse" "It makes money" To go to the play analogy, it'd be like hearing your kid sucked in the play, and saying "The set was well made".
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 5, 2017 1:46:34 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with Complaining about Wrestling
- CJB01, Resident FAN Complainer, Pretty Happy in Smackdown Threads Though
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Jan 5, 2017 2:52:13 GMT -5
I think the issue is that the fans never stop complaining. I don't know any other fandom that is never happy with what they are fans of like WWE. The fans are passionate but never seem to be happy or even close to satisfied. I imagine as someone busting their ass to give the fans a good show that it gets a bit old. So untrue. When the product is good, nobody complains. Go look at the old NXT Takeover events, read reviews of great PPPV's or the Lucha Underground threads. When the product is great the fans are happy and love it. We all came here likely to discuss our love of wrestling rather to slag it off. The difference between the WWE and other TV shows is that if other shows were as bad for so long as Raw has been they would be cancelled by now, but the WWE although they don't seem to care, have such loyal fans they frankly don't deserve. They also have an instant focus group of thousands of fans every week in the arena and millions on the internet who tell them what is and what isn't working every week. Other shows would kill for that. What is also baffling to me is that the fans have largely wanted the same thing for decades- well written stories. The WWE always brag that they "tell stories" but they hardly ever do. The WWE does have more contempt than it's fans than anybody else as previously stated with the exception of George Lucas, Tekken's Katsuhiro Harada and possibly Metal Gear Solid's Hideo Kojima who also treat the fans poor.
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Post by xCompackx on Jan 5, 2017 3:02:13 GMT -5
Fair point, and they'll never be able to satisfy every single person, but I do think that because wrestling is a never-ending machine, there has to be a much higher emphasis on keeping fans happy. Listen to what the crowds are saying and react accordingly. If someone needs to be turned or have their character tweaked in some fashion, try it and see how it works at a house show; you can get away with some crazy shit there. Absolutely- but there should be a little bit of a grace period for these things as well. I remember distinctly- one of my longtime friends happened to be a reviewer for a board around the time of the YES! Movement, and one thing he said to me in passing from this was simple: "Can't WWE see if they give us Daniel Bryan, we'll give them Roman Reigns?" That theory made sense. He was DEAD WRONG. They gave us Daniel Bryan, and not only did we did not give them Roman Reigns in the least, we didn't even manage to be happy they gave us Daniel Bryan- within 24 hours the reaction was basically "that shit was great. NOW DO CESARO!" Keeping fans happy is the primary goal- but there should be at least a LITTLE BIT of a grace period when the fans finally get what they wanted. By contrast, there's a switchover within a couple weeks to demanding something else than that...if not outright turning on the person now that we finally got them (looking in your direction, Zack Ryder...) I don't disagree, but this kind of highlights the issue in that there's a lot of guys ready for bigger things and seeing one guy make it is going to make people want the same for others.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,077
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 5, 2017 3:39:47 GMT -5
Absolutely- but there should be a little bit of a grace period for these things as well. I remember distinctly- one of my longtime friends happened to be a reviewer for a board around the time of the YES! Movement, and one thing he said to me in passing from this was simple: "Can't WWE see if they give us Daniel Bryan, we'll give them Roman Reigns?" That theory made sense. He was DEAD WRONG. They gave us Daniel Bryan, and not only did we did not give them Roman Reigns in the least, we didn't even manage to be happy they gave us Daniel Bryan- within 24 hours the reaction was basically "that shit was great. NOW DO CESARO!" Keeping fans happy is the primary goal- but there should be at least a LITTLE BIT of a grace period when the fans finally get what they wanted. By contrast, there's a switchover within a couple weeks to demanding something else than that...if not outright turning on the person now that we finally got them (looking in your direction, Zack Ryder...) I don't disagree, but this kind of highlights the issue in that there's a lot of guys ready for bigger things and seeing one guy make it is going to make people want the same for others. I'm not entirely seeing the problem. "Oh, GOD, the fans wanted us to push that guy, they did and now he's selling merch and we have big happy crowds, they want us to make them push someone they want AGAIN! Jesus, eventually we'll have a roster full of guys people like, crowds cheering every week, it's just too much!"
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