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Post by xCompackx on Jan 4, 2017 18:51:52 GMT -5
I watched Bring It To the Table again (which I wouldn't recommend), and Heyman's constant shouting during the "Is Raw too long" segment made me think of something: what exactly is the problem with complaining if we don't like something? There shouldn't be some expectation that, because it's WWE and they're the "big guys" of the wrestling world, that we have to like everything they do.
This brings up something else: Why do wrestlers get so upset when fans criticize wrestling? Chris Jericho comes to mind as his comments regarding Roman Reigns and his interference while wearing a Sin Cara mask were more accusatory than anything else. It always strikes me as odd how mean-spirited people in the wrestling industry are towards fans that give them money and want to like what they see.
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Post by katiemorgan67212 on Jan 4, 2017 19:06:35 GMT -5
When the public doesn't like the art,it is always because the art is misundertsood. No artist ever admits that the art was bad. It is not limited to wrestling to pushback against criticism.
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Post by 111111 on Jan 4, 2017 19:07:58 GMT -5
Theres nothing wrong with criticizing anything and there's nothing wrong with people responding to critique in whatever manner they see fit.
Ideally people wouldn't take it to heart, but creative types usually get really bothered by critism, it's not unique to wrestling.
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StuntGranny®
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Post by StuntGranny® on Jan 4, 2017 19:09:58 GMT -5
They're the WWE, they're the MAJOR LEAGUE, they are all-knowing, and you will damn well enjoy whatever they feed you.
But seriously, it's a load of shit that we as fans aren't allowed to criticize/debate angles or wrestlers. I hate when wrestlers throw out the "YOU DON'T WRESTLE, SO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE US!" I instantly lose respect for any wrestler who drops that shit. Tommy End dropped it on Twitter a couple of days ago. It's just a silly, stupid argument.
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ISO Mid Thigh Pull
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Post by ISO Mid Thigh Pull on Jan 4, 2017 19:13:00 GMT -5
Lots of wrestlers have a severe casee of insecure dickheaditus. It's a horrible disease.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 4, 2017 19:15:27 GMT -5
It's worth noting that, especially in the case of Heyman, dude's been part of wrestling for the majority of his life. It's inevitably going to be personal for him. It's more than a little silly, and he ought to temper his responses, but it'd be like if you were reading reviews of your kid's play and they were all about how much they sucked.
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pegasuswarrior
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Jan 4, 2017 19:19:35 GMT -5
Because they're competitors with egos who can't take second place or second rate for anything in a business where you have to take falls for others. Which, I actually admire. I wish more of our society had that attitude back. In their minds, it's not satisfactory to stink at what you do no matter if they actually do stink at it or not. And especially to be told that by people who perceivably (by them) couldn't even lace their boots in terms of the skill it takes to get to that level.
It's really a matter of which side of the coin you're looking at and what angle you're looking at it from. See also general public and "those d*** doctors."
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 4, 2017 19:20:45 GMT -5
No industry has more contempt for its own fanbase than wrestling.
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Post by Johawn on Jan 4, 2017 19:21:37 GMT -5
It's worth noting that, especially in the case of Heyman, dude's been part of wrestling for the majority of his life. It's inevitably going to be personal for him. It's more than a little silly, and he ought to temper his responses, but it'd be like if you were reading reviews of your kid's play and they were all about how much they sucked. I think this, pretty much, with added "you can sit there and watch and pick holes but you don't know what goes into this or how we come to our decisions." Which I understand and is completely fair. Plus, Heyman is right when he says "don't like it, boycott it." We do watch, for the most part, whatever happens, so I can also appreciate the "yeah you're complaining but you're still watching, so why should I care?" angle.
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pegasuswarrior
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Jan 4, 2017 19:21:39 GMT -5
No industry has more contempt for its own fanbase than wrestling. Fact.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 4, 2017 19:25:06 GMT -5
No industry has more contempt for its own fanbase than wrestling. I think film is still worse about it, but wrestlers "enjoy" a much closer line between them and fans than most industries. That can be great, or it can be miserable for fan and wrestler alike. It's not like a football team, they're their own team, and unless they wrestle in a mask, it's their face for every barb and remark people can muster. That has to be exhausting, even if I think more of them could stand to pull themselves back and see it still isn't personal, since fans don't really know them, even if they think they do. Doesn't help that most entertainers are by their nature needing in validation.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jan 4, 2017 19:25:43 GMT -5
They take it personally. They care just as much, if not more, and have busted their ass in one way or another..
So when we, as fans, go "The product sucks" they take it personally and strike it as not understanding.
That being said, I've been watching since 98' and the products gotten worse and I'm kind of bewildered why I've stuck around myself..
I think we want it to be good. Reminds me of th Star Wars prequels. As a huge Star Wars fan I didn't want those to be pieces of shit but they were. And my fandom and love made me stick around.
It is slightly annoying when some of them Bitch about US bitching ...but I get their egos take a hit.
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Post by GuyOfOwnage on Jan 4, 2017 19:25:47 GMT -5
But seriously, it's a load of shit that we as fans aren't allowed to criticize/debate angles or wrestlers. I hate when wrestlers throw out the "YOU DON'T WRESTLE, SO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE US!" I instantly lose respect for any wrestler who drops that shit. Tommy End dropped it on Twitter a couple of days ago. It's just a silly, stupid argument. The funny thing about the "you've never done it" argument is that plenty of people who HAVE done it have come out and voiced similar, if not outright identical concerns as the so-called hapless internet nerds. Which kinda blows a massive hole in their entire argument.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 4, 2017 19:28:38 GMT -5
But seriously, it's a load of shit that we as fans aren't allowed to criticize/debate angles or wrestlers. I hate when wrestlers throw out the "YOU DON'T WRESTLE, SO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE US!" I instantly lose respect for any wrestler who drops that shit. Tommy End dropped it on Twitter a couple of days ago. It's just a silly, stupid argument. The funny thing about the "you've never done it" argument is that plenty of people who HAVE done it have come out and voiced similar, if not outright identical concerns as the so-called hapless internet nerds. Which kinda blows a massive hole in their entire argument. Even without that context it is an argument that makes no sense. Criticism does not require experience of doing the activity. I don't need to make a film to know when a film sucks.
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Johnny
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Post by Johnny on Jan 4, 2017 19:30:02 GMT -5
Heyman clearly has no time for those who bitch and moan, but aren't going anywhere.
It's a business. You attract eyes and follow the money. If one section of the audience have shown that they will watch no matter what you present them, then there's no value in listening to their critiques.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 4, 2017 19:34:15 GMT -5
I think this, pretty much, with added "you can sit there and watch and pick holes but you don't know what goes into this or how we come to our decisions." Which I understand and is completely fair. Plus, Heyman is right when he says "don't like it, boycott it." We do watch, for the most part, whatever happens, so I can also appreciate the "yeah you're complaining but you're still watching, so why should I care?" angle. The bigger problem with the "don't like it, boycott it or STFU" claim was how WWE responds even then. We've SEEN IT. The ratings are plummeting. The fans ARE boycotting it because the show sucks, and the WWE still doesn't give a shit. The Heyman claim for the NXT debuts of "well, the fans will complain if they debut Nakamura or Joe with no build in the Royal Rumble, but they'd also complain if they got build and they weren't surprised" thing may have some merit...but it can be turned around on the WWE as well here. If the fans keep watching, the WWE would just say "You don't like it, then boycott it or STFU"...but when the fans DO stop watching, the response by WWE invariably is "Well, you just proved you're not the true fans you said you were. If you were REAL FANS, you'd keep watching. We're not listening to a bunch of fair-weather fans, we'll keep doing what we planned to anyway because the REAL FANS love it."
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Post by Push R Truth on Jan 4, 2017 19:39:46 GMT -5
One of the things that's always bugged me is there's a big "unknown" with contracts and willingness/ability to work. What do you mean Val?Ok I'll explain. Let's say... I want to see Wrestler X get a title run. The crowd likes him. He's a great worker. So I complain he's underused. Now, on the business side of things, perhaps X only signs 6 month deals. The WWE might not want to invest that much in a dude that's only on contract at most at any given time, 6 months. Now, on the personal side of things, maybe the guy prefers the lower stress of just being "One of the guys". Maybe he likes to do more PR rather than wrestle. Maybe he's got a bum hip and 2 ten minute high impact matches a month is all he can comfortably do. Most of the info in the above paragraph we are almost always in the dark about. Makes me realize we only see, hear and read about a small portion of the business. And sometimes none of that is the problem and Wrestler X just pissed the wrong person off
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Jan 4, 2017 19:44:34 GMT -5
The irony is, the portion of the audience they seem to disdain, is the portion of the audience the company's current direction most cultivates.
Boatloads of imported indie talent, a focus on in-ring competition, and a subscription based service filled with all the wrestling a person can handle. Look around you, WWE. We are you. You are we.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 19:51:13 GMT -5
I actually think what Heyman said is being misunderstood. I think he was actually trying to tell us to stop watching so they change things up. He was just saying it in a way that wouldn't get him fired.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 19:53:32 GMT -5
I think it needs to be taken into account that when wrestlers are complaining about complaining, it's because people directly communicate their complaints to them as if that's helpful to anyone.
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