mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jun 10, 2017 0:06:07 GMT -5
How many people did Hogan "make" during his glory days? What about Austin, how many folks did he "make"? Historically, the tippy top babyface has never "made" anybody in WWE. The issue is that they rode with Cena on top for too long and when they finally did try to appoint his successor, they made two awful f***ing choices (Sheamus and Roman Reigns). Get pissy at WWE, don't get pissy at Cena for doing his job. I don't think anyone is really arguing for him "making" guys, in fact it's mostly the people defending him that are using that excuse. What bothers me is that in clearly a time where WWE is not exactly in a boom period, they're cutting out the legs of guys who might be able to do something for the company. Again, they're beaten before given a chance to prove otherwise. And I'm talking about anything that garner's attention is immediately snuffed out. Nexus? Done before it gains any momentum. Summer of Punk? Barely a month long and I know that isn't Cena's fault. Ryback? Turned heel and jobbed out. Bryan? The company was forced kicking and screaming to give him a chance. Now looking back on the days of Stone Cold or Hulk? I can't recall many guys who were just so incredibly over that they could have eclipsed Austin or Hogan as opposed to it happening numerous times in the Cena era. And at least for Austin and Hogan, the numbers were there to justify their spot. Cena can really only point to merchandise sales (which is inflated because he had about 6x the amount of merch compared to any of the other guys) . And to be fair to Hogan, there were a lot of guys brought in with the goal of working with Hogan. The company doesn't really have that foresight anymore. They just see a guy who has potential and immediately suck the life out of him. |
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jun 10, 2017 0:10:40 GMT -5
How many people did Hogan "make" during his glory days? What about Austin, how many folks did he "make"? Historically, the tippy top babyface has never "made" anybody in WWE. The issue is that they rode with Cena on top for too long and when they finally did try to appoint his successor, they made two awful f***ing choices (Sheamus and Roman Reigns). Get pissy at WWE, don't get pissy at Cena for doing his job. I don't think anyone is really arguing for him "making" guys, in fact it's mostly the people defending him that are using that excuse. What bothers me is that in clearly a time where WWE is not exactly in a boom period, they're cutting out the legs of guys who might be able to do something for the company. Again, they're beaten before given a chance to prove otherwise. And I'm talking about anything that garner's attention is immediately snuffed out. Nexus? Done before it gains any momentum. Summer of Punk? Barely a month long and I know that isn't Cena's fault. Ryback? Turned heel and jobbed out. Bryan? The company was forced kicking and screaming to give him a chance. Now looking back on the days of Stone Cold or Hulk? I can't recall many guys who were just so incredibly over that they could have eclipsed Austin or Hogan as opposed to it happening numerous times in the Cena era. And at least for Austin and Hogan, the numbers were there to justify their spot. Cena can really only point to merchandise sales (which is inflated because he had about 6x the amount of merch compared to any of the other guys) . And to be fair to Hogan, there were a lot of guys brought in with the goal of working with Hogan. The company doesn't really have that foresight anymore. They just see a guy who has potential and immediately suck the life out of him. Who really surpassed Cena though? That's not meant to be rhetorical, I honestly might be drawing a blank here. Off the top of my head, I can think of CM Punk during the Pipebomb angle (before they dumped a ton of water on that fire) and Jeff Hardy (who they desperately wanted to keep but his demons got the best of him). That's about it. Everybody else is "what-ifs" that never really got close to Cena's level. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 10, 2017 0:12:25 GMT -5
It's funny the difference between him and Randy putting people over
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jun 10, 2017 0:16:38 GMT -5
And you know what? With how WWE is structured, there ain't never gonna be another #1 top guy or a guy that move buisness. You're right, because it's what Vince wants, not what the fans want. Otherwise they would've turned Cena heel back in 2006, possibly repackaged him, and gave him the tools to be a better long term face in the future like Rock. And let's not act like it's the talent's fault for failing. If the office doesn't believe in you, there's not much you can do. This isn't a shoot, and everything you say and do is scripted. So if you somehow get over, the company will use this as an opportunity to benefit someone else already established. I said several years ago that the WWE roster was a bunch of feeder mice for Triple H, Cena and Orton. They're already stuffed to the gills, but they still desire more. Gee, I wonder why it feels so stagnant!? |
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,958
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Post by Dub H on Jun 10, 2017 0:17:05 GMT -5
In both the Owens and Styles feuds, didn't Cena basically say their initial clean wins over him didn't mean anything and they needed to be men and face him again...and then when he got the win back, they were world-class athletes that only Hustle Loyalty and Respect could have vanquished? Didn't he do that with Bryan as well?, I'm sure he said something like "My arm wasn't 100%, That's why I lost" (Or something like that, It's been ages) Nope he said "I have to go because i need Elbow surgery. But that is not why I lost,Bryan was the better man" of course not exact words. |
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Jun 10, 2017 0:21:14 GMT -5
Didn't he do that with Bryan as well?, I'm sure he said something like "My arm wasn't 100%, That's why I lost" (Or something like that, It's been ages) Nope he said "I have to go because i need Elbow surgery. But that is not why I lost,Bryan was the better man" of course not exact words. Ah I just remember he mentioned his arm |
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Jun 10, 2017 0:23:19 GMT -5
I honestly don't even know what the f*** he's saying. Anyone care to translate for me?
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jun 10, 2017 0:24:44 GMT -5
Who really surpassed Cena though? That's not meant to be rhetorical, I honestly might be drawing a blank here. Off the top of my head, I can think of CM Punk during the Pipebomb angle (before they dumped a ton of water on that fire) and Jeff Hardy (who they desperately wanted to keep but his demons got the best of him). That's about it. Everybody else is "what-ifs" that never really got close to Cena's level. But it is rhetorical if you're asking something that can't be concluded. All that can be provided is evidence of a company that snuffed the fire as soon as it got too big. In that case, they can always claim it's the fault of the talent when it clearly wasn't. And why didn't they get close? Because they were buried along the way! Ryback was pretty damn over and look what happened. And while I don't think Christian would've ever topped Cena, he had a shirt in 2005 that was immediately taken off their site once people started buying it. And after hyping a feud, he was treated as a third wheel. Punk as mentioned. Bryan was wasted in filler crap forever. It's not even about being on or past the level Cena is at. It's about cutting their legs out before they even remotely get a chance. |
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jun 10, 2017 0:28:21 GMT -5
Who really surpassed Cena though? That's not meant to be rhetorical, I honestly might be drawing a blank here. Off the top of my head, I can think of CM Punk during the Pipebomb angle (before they dumped a ton of water on that fire) and Jeff Hardy (who they desperately wanted to keep but his demons got the best of him). That's about it. Everybody else is "what-ifs" that never really got close to Cena's level. But it is rhetorical if you're asking something that can't be concluded. All that can be provided is evidence of a company that snuffed the fire as soon as it got too big. In that case, they can always claim it's the fault of the talent when it clearly wasn't. And why didn't they get close? Because they were buried along the way! Ryback was pretty damn over and look what happened. And while I don't think Christian would've ever topped Cena, he had a shirt in 2005 that was immediately taken off their site once people started buying it. And after hyping a feud, he was treated as a third wheel. Punk as mentioned. Bryan was wasted in filler crap forever. It's not even about being on or past the level Cena is at. It's about cutting their legs out before they even remotely get a chance. Ok, I'm starting to get more where you're coming from now. I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. |
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jun 10, 2017 0:29:10 GMT -5
Who really surpassed Cena though? That's not meant to be rhetorical, I honestly might be drawing a blank here. Off the top of my head, I can think of CM Punk during the Pipebomb angle (before they dumped a ton of water on that fire) and Jeff Hardy (who they desperately wanted to keep but his demons got the best of him). That's about it. Everybody else is "what-ifs" that never really got close to Cena's level. But it is rhetorical if you're asking something that can't be concluded. All that can be provided is evidence of a company that snuffed the fire as soon as it got too big. In that case, they can always claim it's the fault of the talent when it clearly wasn't. And why didn't they get close? Because they were buried along the way! Ryback was pretty damn over and look what happened. And while I don't think Christian would've ever topped Cena, he had a shirt in 2005 that was immediately taken off their site once people started buying it. And after hyping a feud, he was treated as a third wheel. Punk as mentioned. Bryan was wasted in filler crap forever. It's not even about being on or past the level Cena is at. It's about cutting their legs out before they even remotely get a chance. Yep. They even tried to job The Shield out to Cena when they were white hot as well, but fortunately the 3 of them outright refused because they didn't want their stock to plummet. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 0:47:10 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is really arguing for him "making" guys, in fact it's mostly the people defending him that are using that excuse. What bothers me is that in clearly a time where WWE is not exactly in a boom period, they're cutting out the legs of guys who might be able to do something for the company. Again, they're beaten before given a chance to prove otherwise. And I'm talking about anything that garner's attention is immediately snuffed out. Nexus? Done before it gains any momentum. Summer of Punk? Barely a month long and I know that isn't Cena's fault. Ryback? Turned heel and jobbed out. Bryan? The company was forced kicking and screaming to give him a chance. Now looking back on the days of Stone Cold or Hulk? I can't recall many guys who were just so incredibly over that they could have eclipsed Austin or Hogan as opposed to it happening numerous times in the Cena era. And at least for Austin and Hogan, the numbers were there to justify their spot. Cena can really only point to merchandise sales (which is inflated because he had about 6x the amount of merch compared to any of the other guys) . And to be fair to Hogan, there were a lot of guys brought in with the goal of working with Hogan. The company doesn't really have that foresight anymore. They just see a guy who has potential and immediately suck the life out of him. Who really surpassed Cena though? That's not meant to be rhetorical, I honestly might be drawing a blank here. Off the top of my head, I can think of CM Punk during the Pipebomb angle (before they dumped a ton of water on that fire) and Jeff Hardy (who they desperately wanted to keep but his demons got the best of him). That's about it. Everybody else is "what-ifs" that never really got close to Cena's level. I would argue Daniel Bryan. I'll never forgive WWE for making Daniel Bryan "The In Case of Fire Break Glass" Wrestlemania booking plan. There was no way of knowing he was wrestling on borrowed time but I and millions of others just feel robbed he was never given a major title run when he was the most over and universally loved guy since The Rock in 2000. |
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Totorob101
Hank Scorpio
Glob Glob Glob
Posts: 5,656
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Post by Totorob101 on Jun 10, 2017 0:47:34 GMT -5
This is coming from the same guy who's been known to phone it in when he's booked to lose. His matches with Bryan and Punk being the exceptions. Not the rule. Get the f*** outta here with bullshit Cena. I was just starting to come around to Cena and he goes says this bullshit. Please retire Cena. You won't be missed. Agreed. People hate Cena for a reason and that is he does bury talent simple as that. I mean people crap on triple h for all his politics but Cena is just as bad but seems to get a pass due to his "nice guy" act. He wins every feud pretty much and i cant remember when he lost clean. What an ass. |
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jun 10, 2017 1:32:44 GMT -5
The funny thing about all this is that he's already quite possibly the most generous top guy WWE have ever had, at least in terms of losing matches clean to other talents. Hogan only lost ONE TV singles match clean in his entire main event run from 1984 to 1993, to Warrior at WM6. Austin once he was established in 1997/1998 as the top babyface, not that many more after that... Three Stages Of Hell with Triple H at No Way Out 2001 and Rock at WM19 are about all that comes to mind. Cena on the other hand? Ambrose (on weekly TV, mind you), Styles, Del Rio, Owens, Lesnar, Orton, Bryan, Rock... The only difference here is those guys were almost unanimously beloved in their times, and that a lot of people haven't liked Cena for years for various reasons, be it his character or his wrestling ability or who he didn't lose to or because the top babyface isn't someone else or some combination of the above.
I think I mentioned this in another thread recently... Many don't seem to mind dominant top babyface booking as an isolated concept, their only issues are who it is that gets it.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jun 10, 2017 1:50:52 GMT -5
The funny thing about all this is that he's already quite possibly the most generous top guy WWE have ever had, at least in terms of losing matches clean to other talents. Hogan only lost ONE TV singles match clean in his entire main event run from 1984 to 1993, to Warrior at WM6. Austin once he was established in 1997/1998 as the top babyface, not that many more after that... Three Stages Of Hell with Triple H at No Way Out 2001 and Rock at WM19 are about all that comes to mind. Cena on the other hand? Ambrose (on weekly TV, mind you), Styles, Del Rio, Owens, Lesnar, Orton, Bryan, Rock... The only difference here is those guys were almost unanimously beloved in their times, and that a lot of people haven't liked Cena for years for various reasons, be it his character or his wrestling ability or who he didn't lose to or because the top babyface isn't someone else or some combination of the above. I think I mentioned this in another thread recently... Many don't seem to mind dominant top babyface booking as an isolated concept, their only issues are who it is that gets it. Hogan and Austin were each the hottest act of their time, and pushing them took the company to new heights. Cena is not the same case. He was pushed hard for a decade, and business just stayed afloat. There was no reason to protect him as hard as they did. |
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Post by Captain & Diet on Jun 10, 2017 3:23:18 GMT -5
Cena's been on top for 10 years and the company's TV has shed more viewers. Judging by the ratings decline and the reduced money for TV deals throughout the "Cena Era," one could draw the conclusion that Cena may have worked hard and at an Elite level, but actually hurt the company. The results simply aren't there.
If I were talent that felt buried, I might bring that up to Cena. Don't get me wrong, I admire Cena. He has worked his ass off. He changed characters and he became more popular, however, he didn't spur a boom period.
Sure, this isn't the New Generation Era but the company has a lot of soul searching to do before they negotiate their next deal with NBC/Universal. And if revenue from that deal drops, you can point the blame directly at Vince for not developing more stars. Cena should have been the Final Boss position after five or six years, not 10. You can't blame most of that on Cena as it is Vince. I think Vince's reliance on part-time like Lesnar and Goldberg actually hurt the company as much as Cena on top. While Vince threw money at guys who barely popped a rating, other wrestlers languished behind them, putting on great matches but not getting the right spot in the card.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 10, 2017 3:36:20 GMT -5
Except virtually everyone he's worked with has ended up worse off. That's pretty much the definition of a burial.
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Post by héad.casé on Jun 10, 2017 4:33:41 GMT -5
I honestly think Cena did more to help people when he was just having random weekly TV defences of his US Title. Look at all the guys who took him to the limit during that time and looked awesome in defeat. I remember an awesome defence against Neville, against Cesaro, Sami who injured his shoulder worse than it already was during his entrance for that match because he was so pumped up.
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Post by héad.casé on Jun 10, 2017 4:38:20 GMT -5
I honestly don't even know what the f*** he's saying. Anyone care to translate for me? He's basically saying that he'll give any potential young guy he's working with free reign to say/do what they want in an angle with him ("give me your best shot, but i'll give it back just as hard"), but not to blame him if the guy he's finished working with can't keep that momentum going and make themselves a main eventer waiting to happen because if they fail it's not on him. |
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Post by Citizen Snips on Jun 10, 2017 5:06:17 GMT -5
Sort of off-topic, but holy hell what is Cena's problem with Miz? He's buried both of their Mania programs hard now ("I made average look awesome" the first time, now this "No one cared until I pumped it up" which is just a flat-out lie) while putting all the blame on Miz.
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Post by eJm on Jun 10, 2017 5:15:40 GMT -5
I honestly think Cena did more to help people when he was just having random weekly TV defences of his US Title. Look at all the guys who took him to the limit during that time and looked awesome in defeat. I remember an awesome defence against Neville, against Cesaro, Sami who injured his shoulder worse than it already was during his entrance for that match because he was so pumped up. As true as that is, again, they didn't capitalise off the payoff at all with Del Rio. Shoving him in a nothing storyline in a nothing feud so the belt went back down to where it was before even Rusev got it. Like, for a guy they had a lot of stake in for over a decade, they can't seem to capitalise off anything Cena does, especially not title runs. |
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