ASYLUMHAUSEN
Fry's dog Seymour
GIFs | Shitposts | Fun
Posts: 24,413
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Post by ASYLUMHAUSEN on Jul 10, 2017 13:10:37 GMT -5
They're afraid guys moving up and down the ladder per se. Instead of giving Bray a clean win over Rollins which would help him, they have him do the poke to the eye and finisher and get the win. No one gets over really as they are still stuck in the same position. Seth took a pin loss but he can justify it by saying he was cheated. No one comes out the better of the two ...and then they'll have a rematch on Raw where Seth does something sneaky then wins. 50/50
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 10, 2017 13:19:26 GMT -5
I only saw the last two matches but they both had clean finishes. There no run on or shenanigans. I get the point of the thread but not the timing. I should clarify: technically, they were clean. In terms of how they were booked, they weren't. An ambulance match is supposed to be a "beat the other guy down so badly they can't stop you from loading them into an ambulance" type of match...instead, Braun basically won by getting lucky, and Roman flew into the ambulance by accident. Throw in the whole "one guy won the match, then nearly got murdered immediately afterward" thing, too. Brock and Joe got hyped up like an epic hoss fight, but then we throw in the cheap shots so that Brock starts the match all dazed and whatnot instead of just giving us the damn match. I wanted to see this match (so just speaking personally here) because I was told Joe and Brock would have a straight up fight. Instead we got what we got. Basically, it's more a matter of there having to be extenuating circumstances in these matches instead of just presenting the damn matches. I'm not going to sit here and say you can never book a match with an unexpected or swerve-y beginning or end, but why is it always something in these matches that prevents us from just getting something that comes off more like a legit fight and wrestling story.
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pegasuswarrior
El Dandy
Three Time FAN Idol Champion
@PulpPictionary
Posts: 8,748
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Jul 10, 2017 13:28:20 GMT -5
I'm going to respectfully disagree.
I think there are too many clean finishes, and this has spoiled some fans. Spoiled to the point that when a countout happens or a DQ, EVERYONE calls BS, and wrestling is doomed. I actually hate that I can't suspend disbelief enough to ever think a countout or DQ is ever going to happen, that's how infrequent they are, when in fact those are two out of four viable finishes to keep things fresh in booking. Pin or submission only booking is really limiting, in my book.
It seems to me that earlier years of booking in the business had way more dusty finishes, which play out well creatively in building storylines and feuds. I don't think these cries for clean finishes are based on a lack of them. To me, there are WAY too many meaningless clean finish throwaway matches that really deteriorate the win/loss concept that is such a big draw for me personally. I want wins and losses to matter way more. Mostly, wins. I would much rather wins mattered. They don't. And for me, it's because of way too many clean finishes.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jul 10, 2017 13:35:46 GMT -5
It used to be where you'd have some clean matches here and there on Raw but you'd expect the DQ or countout or Dusty finish to happen, but that was OK because PPV's where everything got resolved and matches would have a clean ending. But now? Shady finishes and non-finishes are perfectly ok for PPV's in WWE's mindset. I guess it's supposed to be somewhat easier to justify with the WWE Network basically making the concept of PPV's business model obsolete. But all these shady finishes, DQ's, and countouts in even the lesser PPV events makes the possibility of them being showing up in the Rumble, Summerslam, Survivor Series, or Wrestlemania more of a common thing. And, well, unsatisfactory matches are a big part of WCW's decline in the late 90's. WWE is REALLY fortunate that they're the only real game in town because the closest thing they have to competition is even less competent than they are. Lance Storm said something, I don't remember if it was a written essay or in an audio interview, about how in yesteryear wrestling would book TV in such a way that the build-up/pay-off would culminate at a PPV. You do stuff on basically free TV so that people are willing to pay you money to see the conclusion on PPV. Nowadays, the situation is reversed, in which you book PPVs in such a way that the build-up/pay-off happens on TV (especially over weeks at a time). The thing that you pay for is now another bit of set-up for all the stuff that happens for free elsewhere. Now, in the age of the Network, this isn't so bad, since you're only paying $10 for a show instead of $60. So in one sense, you're getting more value for your money compared to what you used to get. But since you're only paying $10 for PPVs nowadays, more often than not you're getting a lot less entertainment value for your dollar, especially when WWE doesn't have to work as hard for you to part with a couple cups of coffee versus maybe a week's worth of groceries. Back when I had the Network, from September 2015 to January 2016, I watched all the PPVs WWE put on, and I would have been a lot more disappointed and unhappy had I paid the old $60 per show. But $10 a month was reasonable. But when I cancelled the Network, I realized that WWE trained me to accept mediocrity as quality if only because I paid less for it. DQs, count-outs, and cheating all become acceptable means of finishing matches when there's less financial risk involved.
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Dang!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,277
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Post by Dang! on Jul 10, 2017 13:45:18 GMT -5
In my experience, stuff with the word "Balls" in the title, rarely have clean finishes. You mean, it's like an average FC Barcelona match? You know, as in "loads of Messi shots"...
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 10, 2017 13:47:05 GMT -5
I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think there are too many clean finishes, and this has spoiled some fans. Spoiled to the point that when a countout happens or a DQ, EVERYONE calls BS, and wrestling is doomed. I actually hate that I can't suspend disbelief enough to ever think a countout or DQ is ever going to happen, that's how infrequent they are, when in fact those are two out of four viable finishes to keep things fresh in booking. Pin or submission only booking is really limiting, in my book. It seems to me that earlier years of booking in the business had way more dusty finishes, which play out well creatively in building storylines and feuds. I don't think these cries for clean finishes are based on a lack of them. To me, there are WAY too many meaningless clean finish throwaway matches that really deteriorate the win/loss concept that is such a big draw for me personally. I want wins and losses to matter way more. Mostly, wins. I would much rather wins mattered. They don't. And for me, it's because of way too many clean finishes. I don't think countouts or DQs are automatically bad (at least for my tastes), but I think I see what you're saying when we look at how WWE structures its midcard: Raw has way, way too much "wrestling for the sake of wrestling" on it, matches with little build that have clean finishes but, far worse, have no consequences to them. On top of that, they'll often have those clean finishes then just book the same guys, gals, or teams in the same exact match with the same finish the next week, which is numbing after awhile. Maybe my complaint is more about "money matches", major match ups where you're supposed to build up to a clean confrontation, where something off or gimmicky happening is supposed to be the exception to the rule, and yet it still feels like they don't book that, either. Almost feel like it was another reason Brock vs. Cena at that one SummerSlam worked so well, it was almost stunning how there was nothing off about the match, just a clean one-on-one that Brock happened to dominate.
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Sicho100
Hank Scorpio
Easily Confused.
Posts: 5,964
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Post by Sicho100 on Jul 10, 2017 13:52:45 GMT -5
I feel like the big issue underlying everything is that WWE has basically thrown out the "low-card, mid-card, main event" card structure. And, because of that, there is little movement among it (and when there is movement, it's jarring - like in the case of Jinder).
Instead, they basically have made three spheres of people, where you can only interact with people in your sphere - there are the top guys (Seth, Roman, Cena, Orton, etc.) that fight over the top belts, the "Not Quite Top Guys" (Dean, Miz, Dolph, etc.) purgatory for guys that always fight over the midcard belts, and then everyone else being irrelevant filler.
Because of this, they are so scared for one person to go over another. So they have bullshit finishes - whether technically clean or not - that do nothing to get anyone over. But even doing that much makes them worry that it's throwing off their spheres, so they need the guy that lost that first match to beat the guy that beat him (again, with a bullshit finish), and so they fall into the dreaded 50/50 booking.
And, because they have these segregated spheres rather than a more fluid card system, there is no real progression for the wrestlers, and instead everyone ends up treading water, facing the same people week after week, and month after month. I feel like a big issue with the Reigns push, for one, was that there was no progression - he just went from the Shield, to feuding with Orton, to perennially going after the belt. He didn't establish himself as a singles wrestler post-Shield, he was just thrust into the Top Guy sphere.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,478
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Post by r. on Jul 10, 2017 14:25:08 GMT -5
Fantastic points, but Joe makes a lot of money so apparently that's all that matters in the end. That is not at all what people were arguing with you about in the show thread. Fair enough.
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