Clean finishes are important...so where are they?

[HMARK Center]

So I got to watch the last hour or so of the PPV tonight after a family function, and I'm wondering if maybe tonight was the key illustration of what's plaguing this company today.

I was hyped for Lesnar/Joe tonight; I don't watch much WWE, but I've checked out the way they've been building this match and it felt like we were going to actually get a straight forward fight, with two guys who know how to make everything they do feel authentic. Yes, the build up was that Lesnar could take Joe lightly because Joe had only one-upped him via cheap shots before the match, but the build up seemed to say that these were two monsters and that the arena would be lucky to still be standing by the end. The stage was set to tell a great story: Brock is the dominant monster champion, but Joe is a guy he's taking lightly at his own peril, and regardless of whether he won or lost, a strong showing against Brock would be a way to help Joe officially "arrive" on the WWE main roster as a major player.

Instead, Joe once again cheap shots Lesnar, does it AGAIN during the match, and it's the only reason he's able to compete against him because then it's Suplex City, a desperation Coquina Clutch, then F-5, over.

This put a question in my head that won't go away: why have Joe go after Lesnar before the bell? Why introduce that into the match at all? All I can figure is that "it's the only way anyone will buy Joe having a chance against Lesnar."

If so...bullshit. Brock's a beast, Joe's a beast, let the two beasts fight.

Here's my big point: When you trust your talent enough to just turn them loose on one another, tell an interesting story, then have one go over clean, +90% of the time you end up with an outcome that makes both the winner and the loser look good, and sends a crowd home happy, but instead we have to introduce complications, excuses, and superfluous nonsense that completely throws a strong potential story out the window, because WWE is apparently allergic to clean finishes.

WCW died in part because every big match had a bullshit ending after awhile. TNA has suffered over the years because they would rarely just commit and let a guy go over cleanly in a big match to get established; both companies always seemed afraid to have anybody ever "lose face", as if just losing clean means a guy could never recover in the face of the crowd, so instead we get the stupid stuff added in.

WWE is getting nearly as bad about it over the past however long now, and I'm starting to wonder if it's a big reason why viewership is down. Alvarez had his Observer rant about how WWE is too obsessed with building heel heat and not interested enough in letting babyfaces go over and leave the crowd satisfied, but I think this plays into that, as well: the refusal to just book a clean, straightforward match that can elevate someone even in a loss denies the audience a clear, concise story, and introduces needless complications into the equation, and it's high time they start cutting it out.

[Perd]

In my experience, stuff with the word "Balls" in the title, rarely have clean finishes.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Its been a detriment to so many people on the roster. It's hard to build people up as legit when you have a handful of guys you constantly mark as "Can't be beaten clean"...

[Deleted]

WWE has just completely stopped paying attention to the show as a whole when booking shit anymore. Every single thing is done in isolation like they expect you to just watch it as a Youtube clip instead of the entire program. That's why heels win nearly every PPV match through cheap means and you get shit like two mystery attacker angles going on at the same time like the Enzo & Cass / Breezango storylines.

[mystermystery]

House shows, apparently.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

I feel like part of it is a lack of ability to commit and book sensible storylines, and part of it is that they have eighty writers all sticking their hands into the bag of tricks and overusing them as hard as they can. Nothing feels special or exciting anymore because they introduce shit like Joe running a pre-match beatdown through a table and a mid-match nutshot on a match he ultimately loses, and nothing gets time to breathe. Their failure to tell a consistent running story is definitely driving people away; the faces never succeed and they're so used to seeing everything happening all the time that there's no exciting hook anymore.

[Milkman Norm]

I have no idea. Modern WWE sucks. I was excited for this match for over a month. Shame on me for thinking it would be a clean kick ass fight between two monsters. It all sucked. Back to classic wrestling I go.

[Nic Nemeth]

It did happen - did you not see the classic Slater vs Hawkins match tonight?

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

I saw it mentioned on the board recently... They try so hard to protect everyone by having so many shady finishes because the clean loss has been put on this pedestal as some sort of horrible fate for a talent on the rise, but shady finishes have been spammed so much that it's just about lost all meaning.

The problem from there is that the clean losses are only MORE noticeable and "career-damaging" as a consequence.

[Brandon Walsh is Insane.]

I'm a fan of not having a clean finish in the first encounter.

Although I will say when WWE does something different (count out wins, 2/3 falls matches, roll up finishes) they tend to spam them on all their shows for a bit until they find something else.

Oh and we just had a clean finish year where the Zayns and Cesaros were pinned cleanly in short TV matches, which didn't really help anyone honestly.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

They're afraid guys moving up and down the ladder per se.

Instead of giving Bray a clean win over Rollins which would help him, they have him do the poke to the eye and finisher and get the win. No one gets over really as they are still stuck in the same position. Seth took a pin loss but he can justify it by saying he was cheated. No one comes out the better of the two

[HMARK Center]

It's just so frustrating; it's like WWE, TNA, and a few other companies heard people saying "Triple H is burying so many people!" back in the early 00s and took the complete wrong lesson from that fan backlash - guys weren't getting buried just because they were losing, they were getting buried because Triple H did everything he could to make himself look great and his opponent look like a stepped-on turd.

But now it's 2017, and these companies seem terrified to just allow things to go forward cleanly, because the lesson they took was "fans think clean losses = buried", which is ridiculous.

EDIT: EoE, great point - by leaning so heavily on weird finishes, you create a vicious circle where a clean loss does end up seeming like a burial, since by booking it that way they've made it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Jul 9, 2017 22:34:58 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

I have no idea. Modern WWE sucks. I was excited for this match for over a month. Shame on me for thinking it would be a clean kick ass fight between two monsters. It all sucked. Back to classic wrestling I go.

Being totally honest here: if you haven't already, and if you can spare it, drop a few bucks to watch New Japan's G1 tournament over the next month. Watch just about any Tomohiro Ishii match, especially when he faces Hirooki Goto or Togi Makabe in his block, and you'll get a nice dose of what this match was missing tonight.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Jul 9, 2017 22:43:29 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

It's just so frustrating; it's like WWE, TNA, and a few other companies heard people saying "Triple H is burying so many people!" back in the early 00s and took the complete wrong lesson from that fan backlash - guys weren't getting buried just because they were losing, they were getting buried because Triple H did everything he could to make himself look great and his opponent look like a stepped-on turd.

But now it's 2017, and these companies seem terrified to just allow things to go forward cleanly, because the lesson they took was "fans think clean losses = buried", which is ridiculous.

Jul 9, 2017 22:34:58 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

I have no idea. Modern WWE sucks. I was excited for this match for over a month. Shame on me for thinking it would be a clean kick ass fight between two monsters. It all sucked. Back to classic wrestling I go.

Being totally honest here: if you haven't already, and if you can spare it, drop a few bucks to watch New Japan's G1 tournament over the next month. Watch just about any Tomohiro Ishii match, especially when he faces Hirooki Goto or Togi Makabe in his block, and you'll get a nice dose of what this match was missing tonight.

Or if you want straight up heel/face matchup just go back to Naito/Tanahashi with Tanahashi getting the tap out hard fought win

[Juice]

That match was great. The cheap shots are part of Joes character. He was brought by hhh to be a any means necessary problem solver. Mike Tyson bit Evanders ear. Lesnar used steroids in ufc. Joe straight f***ing attacking before the bell and low blowing was great

Because no one expected joe to win

And suddenly Brock was very vulnerable

Great story well told all four parts of a match. Good shine. Excellent heat good comeback quick finish

[Milkman Norm]

Jul 9, 2017 22:43:29 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

It's just so frustrating; it's like WWE, TNA, and a few other companies heard people saying "Triple H is burying so many people!" back in the early 00s and took the complete wrong lesson from that fan backlash - guys weren't getting buried just because they were losing, they were getting buried because Triple H did everything he could to make himself look great and his opponent look like a stepped-on turd.

But now it's 2017, and these companies seem terrified to just allow things to go forward cleanly, because the lesson they took was "fans think clean losses = buried", which is ridiculous.

EDIT: EoE, great point - by leaning so heavily on weird finishes, you create a vicious circle where a clean loss does end up seeming like a burial, since by booking it that way they've made it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Jul 9, 2017 22:34:58 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

I have no idea. Modern WWE sucks. I was excited for this match for over a month. Shame on me for thinking it would be a clean kick ass fight between two monsters. It all sucked. Back to classic wrestling I go.

Being totally honest here: if you haven't already, and if you can spare it, drop a few bucks to watch New Japan's G1 tournament over the next month. Watch just about any Tomohiro Ishii match, especially when he faces Hirooki Goto or Togi Makabe in his block, and you'll get a nice dose of what this match was missing tonight.

I may check it out but honestly I like my wrestling built around selling and psychology rather than spots most of the time.

[Chiral]

Clean finishes don't get the shocked reaction shot. So out they go.

[saintpat]

Jul 9, 2017 22:27:21 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

Its been a detriment to so many people on the roster. It's hard to build people up as legit when you have a handful of guys you constantly mark as "Can't be beaten clean"...

How many "So-and-so can NEVER get over this" threads have you started when someone got beat clean? You're a quick trigger on "so-and-so is now buried forever and can never overcome losing clean like this" -- and now you say those finishes are the problem?

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jul 9, 2017 22:59:15 GMT -5 saintpat said:

Jul 9, 2017 22:27:21 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

Its been a detriment to so many people on the roster. It's hard to build people up as legit when you have a handful of guys you constantly mark as "Can't be beaten clean"...

How many "So-and-so can NEVER get over this" threads have you started when someone got beat clean? You're a quick trigger on "so-and-so is now buried forever and can never overcome losing clean like this" -- and now you say those finishes are the problem?

I've made like one of those threads for Bayley. Also thanks for putting words in my mouth man. No, that wasn't my point at all.

A lot of wrestlers aren't beaten clean, some wrestlers lose clean in really weird or bad ways. They are not the same thing. My point was the top guys and gals have a hard time ever losing clean, and the more bottom card of the group are usually the ones that are ALWAYS losing clean, and it hurts the narrative, especially for up and coming superstars.

Take Rusev, in either of his feuds with Cena or Reigns. It took stipulations or shenanigans for him to ever get one up on either of them, while losing to both of them clean multiple times. Take Bayley's Kendo Stick match with Alexa and how that ended, that was not a great narrative nor did it help anyone. When Braun lost to Roman on a clean pin and needs either Roman to be hurt pre match or a stipulation to beat him?

Dirty Tactics are fine to win and advance plots at times, but when it's all the time and they can never seem to legit beat these handful of guys who never seem to lose clean, it creates these boring narratives that you know whats going to happen, you know how it's going to end, and no one is really helped when it's all said and done.

So trying to mush everything together like you tried to do above there? Not cool, it wasn't what I was saying at all.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

I think "They don't want anyone to lose steam" is giving them too much credit, but WWE can't alleviate the damage or taboo or fear over clean finishes if they themselves refuse to use them as the default. Normalize a clean finish and then you don't make people think something is wrong, and suddenly your non-clean finishes mean more.

[HMARK Center]

Jul 9, 2017 22:46:32 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

Jul 9, 2017 22:43:29 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

It's just so frustrating; it's like WWE, TNA, and a few other companies heard people saying "Triple H is burying so many people!" back in the early 00s and took the complete wrong lesson from that fan backlash - guys weren't getting buried just because they were losing, they were getting buried because Triple H did everything he could to make himself look great and his opponent look like a stepped-on turd.

But now it's 2017, and these companies seem terrified to just allow things to go forward cleanly, because the lesson they took was "fans think clean losses = buried", which is ridiculous.

EDIT: EoE, great point - by leaning so heavily on weird finishes, you create a vicious circle where a clean loss does end up seeming like a burial, since by booking it that way they've made it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Being totally honest here: if you haven't already, and if you can spare it, drop a few bucks to watch New Japan's G1 tournament over the next month. Watch just about any Tomohiro Ishii match, especially when he faces Hirooki Goto or Togi Makabe in his block, and you'll get a nice dose of what this match was missing tonight.

I may check it out but honestly I like my wrestling built around selling and psychology rather than spots most of the time.

I won't pretend it's 80s Crockett style psychology, but NJPW probably has some of the best in-ring storytelling going in the industry right now; you honestly don't have to know any Japanese to get an idea of what's happening, since you can tell it based on how people are presented and things like facial expressions, moves that are call backs to previous encounters, stuff like that. It's very satisfying in that sense, and the clear majority of matches come with clean finishes.

Back on the topic, I do think the nuances of clean vs. dirty finishes should be discussed in greater detail; at the end of the day, it's really not bad for a heel to win by nefarious means, it's not bad to make a face look superior to a heel (in most wrestling stories the reason somebody's a heel is precisely because they're insecure enough about their talents that they often feel they have to cheat), none of that precludes somebody from getting over well. Flair made a living off of winning dirty, Hogan made a living going over big, bad heels after building them up as threats for awhile, it's all fair game. I read that Wyatt won tonight by doing a thumb to the eye into a Sister Abigail...that's fine. He's the bad guy in the story. It makes sense.

The catch is this: too often, the types of finishes WWE books aren't traditional clean or dirty finishes: they're more what OSW Review calls "f*** finishes", people losing because of something convoluted and absurd, like Dean Ambrose jobbing out to a hologram of Bray Wyatt and an exploding TV instead of falling to, say, his opponent doing something underhanded by himself to get the win. Instead you get the hologram/TV-go-boom, which makes Wyatt look goofy, Ambrose look like an idiot, and whomever Ambrose was facing seem utterly forgettable considering they didn't even factor into the finish. Nobody is helped, here.