chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,017
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Post by chazraps on Sept 7, 2017 17:41:17 GMT -5
Anyone else have a problem with? Dave Meltzer goes to these PWG 3 day show events where guys are specifically cooperating to get has many stars for as possible for their match because they know he's in the audience, name moves after him and even make him part of the show. Meltzer declared the other day a match there the past weekend was best match on US soil this year. I don't know but wrestlers pandering to the reporter to me just seems so backwards or maybe wrestling in 2017 just goes over my head... What are you talking about?
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Post by honsou on Sept 7, 2017 18:41:34 GMT -5
Its funny how people put such a big emphasis on the star rating in the observer when first off he said its really just his opinion and 99% of the rest of the Observer is really interesting and thorough reporting he does from a perspective you are not going to see.
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Blindkarevik
Grimlock
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Post by Blindkarevik on Sept 7, 2017 18:47:39 GMT -5
I always wonder why PWG even bothers having titles, their shows are really tailored more towards getting a who's who of indy talent together to try and one-up each other all night long and I'm completely fine with that. Would that formula work in WWE? No, but it's yet another flavor for wrestling fans to try. Plus, PWG doesn't take itself seriously at all, so I think the whole thing is pretty fair game.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Sept 7, 2017 19:02:55 GMT -5
Not really relevant to OP but did Meltzer put out PWG star ratings this week? Issue isn't out yet, delayed til likely tonight due to him being at all 3 nights of BOLA, plus everything that happened with TNA on Tuesday set him back even further. Also, anyone who listens to WOR knows he really doesn't care for when the crowd brings attention to him with the whole "5 Star Match" chant. He's just there to enjoy it as a fan. And, while I obviously don't know him personally, nothing about him in either his newsletter or WOR leads me to believe he's the attention whore type.
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Post by Manute Bol on Sept 7, 2017 20:20:08 GMT -5
Agree 100%. His ratings have become so ridiculously biased that I can hardly put any stock in them whatsoever anymore. It was bad enough when his PWG ratings last year were so generous and over the top (can't help but believe the pressure of the "5 star match" chants forced his hand), but he lost all credibility with me when he started giving 6 stars to the Japanese matches. Obviously match ratings are subjective, but until recently, I would put a lot of value in Meltzer's opinions and match analysis. Now, not so much. There's nothing biased about those calls at all. Meltzer was at this match live and the entire room was chanting "5 star match" at him. The crowd was absolutely off the charts and I'd say it be pretty close to impossible for a person not to be influenced by that atmosphere. That match was good, but I can name dozens of WWE or ROH matches that didn't receive 5 stars yet were significantly better than the PWG 6-man. I think it's very reasonable to say there was plenty of bias in this call. How is that indicative of any "bias" beyond "biased toward wrestling he likes"? The match ratings are his own personal feelings and criteria about a given match, and it's not like he's throwing Kenny Omega high ratings just because Kenny's been on Observer radio. You realize that "bias toward wrestling he likes" is still being biased, right? If a music reviewer loves heavy metal and gives inflated reviews of metal albums compared to other genres, the reviewer is being biased, no? Meltzer is obviously biased towards Japanese wrestling. Yes, it's because he prefers that style of wrestling, but it's still biased. I think a journalist should leave things as objective as possible and leave personal preferences out of their reviews. Meltzer absolutely does not do that.
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Post by Starshine on Sept 7, 2017 20:30:02 GMT -5
There's nothing biased about those calls at all. Meltzer was at this match live and the entire room was chanting "5 star match" at him. The crowd was absolutely off the charts and I'd say it be pretty close to impossible for a person not to be influenced by that atmosphere. That match was good, but I can name dozens of WWE or ROH matches that didn't receive 5 stars yet were significantly better than the PWG 6-man. I think it's very reasonable to say there was plenty of bias in this call. How is that indicative of any "bias" beyond "biased toward wrestling he likes"? The match ratings are his own personal feelings and criteria about a given match, and it's not like he's throwing Kenny Omega high ratings just because Kenny's been on Observer radio. You realize that "bias toward wrestling he likes" is still being biased, right? If a music reviewer loves heavy metal and gives inflated reviews of metal albums compared to other genres, the reviewer is being biased, no? Meltzer is obviously biased towards Japanese wrestling. Yes, it's because he prefers that style of wrestling, but it's still biased. I think a journalist should leave things as objective as possible and leave personal preferences out of their reviews. Meltzer absolutely does not do that. First point, please recognise that you're using your own bias to justify your opinion on those WWE and ROH matches. Also since it's safe to say you don't know the man personally, it's not fair to judge him on what might or might not influence him. Second point, it's impossible to review any form of entertainment without some form of bias seeping through. Unless there are objective problems in the technical department (i.e. production flaws, screw ups from the performers) any opinion formed will always come from a place of personal preference.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Sept 7, 2017 20:45:11 GMT -5
PWG can make or break a person's career more than any other place in the States right now. It doesn't matter that Meltzer is there, PWG is the place that if they get over, it will get their name out to ROH, EVOLVE, LU, WWE, and just about every major company out there. Meltzer being there is an added plus because of the additional publicity he can give but PWG was doing this same thing before he got there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 20:51:21 GMT -5
I think that the 6 stars is pretty silly. I mean if the best is a 5 then how does one even have a 6 star? That said he gave a Flair/Steamboat match from a non-televised show 5 1/2 to 6 stars once so at least it's not something that he just made up.
Apparently Flair and Steamboat had the first match in Maryland which got 5 1/2 to 6 unofficially and then they had a match in Philly the same night that got 4 3/4, that has to be some sort of record.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Sept 7, 2017 21:13:09 GMT -5
Meltzer's weirdest thing to me (there are definitely others) is talking about matches that haven't made it to tape in Japan as if he has seen them.
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The Yes Man
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Post by The Yes Man on Sept 7, 2017 22:06:42 GMT -5
I love how everyone except Meltzer takes the star ratings seriously. Like, it's one persons opinion so who cares?
According to Meltzer Daniel Bryan has zero five star matches. If you ask me, he's got a shitload. It's all objective.
Another thing is people go to secondary sites that very loosely quote Dave, then everyone acts like Meltzer completely makes shit up.
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Facetious
King Koopa
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Post by Facetious on Sept 7, 2017 22:36:46 GMT -5
I love how everyone except Meltzer takes the star ratings seriously. Like, it's one persons opinion so who cares? My favorite is the people who get bent out of shape about the ratings yet will be the first to say "I don't care about his ratings! They're shit"
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Post by eJm on Sept 8, 2017 1:56:37 GMT -5
If a music reviewer loves heavy metal and gives inflated reviews of metal albums compared to other genres, the reviewer is being biased, no? If you're having someone probably hired to only cover heavy metal music cover other music and they aren't familiar/are as much of a fan, what other outcome do you expect when you do that? You already know that person is more familiar or a fan of that stuff and if I were doing a music magazine, that'd be a weird thing to do. Meltzer's case is a bit different, when he's reviewing matches, he's going from his experience, his knowledge and how the crowd reacts along with the story being told. You could go in and think it's different from him but that's just his opinion compared to yours and that's COMPLETELY fine. He's not there to report on what's going on, he's there to say his opinion about it. And just to mention, when you're a reviewer as I have been before, it is literally impossible to not be biased toward something because your feelings about something HAVE to factor in. If they don't, you're just writing a description on something. If I think a movie is bad and someone else doesn't, does that make me biased or does that person just have a different opinion to me?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 2:35:24 GMT -5
The same excellent matches would happen whether he's in the crowd or not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 2:46:03 GMT -5
Its funny how people put such a big emphasis on the star rating in the observer when first off he said its really just his opinion and 99% of the rest of the Observer is really interesting and thorough reporting he does from a perspective you are not going to see. 99% of the people who complain about him don't read the whole thing, they just hear about his star ratings in message board threads like this and form an opinion about him based on that.
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Post by Manute Bol on Sept 8, 2017 9:13:51 GMT -5
Lots of well-written, articulate responses in here. Sorry if I came off like a Meltzer hater. I'm absolutely not; I've been a WON subscriber for years and I do value his insight. However, I find myself disagreeing with him more often these days and the whole 6 stars thing really turned me off. But you guys are right in that all reviews have a degree of bias to them. I was just surprised by what seemed to me was people saying Meltzer had no bias' in his ratings.
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Chainsaw
T
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Post by Chainsaw on Sept 8, 2017 10:41:14 GMT -5
What's the guy supposed to do, never go to events personally because wrestlers know he's in the audience and it could affect their performance? No other critic would ever not go to an event for fear that it may affect their criticism. That's not how criticism works!
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Sept 8, 2017 11:17:54 GMT -5
Lots of well-written, articulate responses in here. Sorry if I came off like a Meltzer hater. I'm absolutely not; I've been a WON subscriber for years and I do value his insight. However, I find myself disagreeing with him more often these days and the whole 6 stars thing really turned me off. But you guys are right in that all reviews have a degree of bias to them. I was just surprised by what seemed to me was people saying Meltzer had no bias' in his ratings. He does grade on a scale, a 5* WWE match is much different then a 5* NJPW match, and yes he does take atmosphere into consideration which can get a little skewed being in the building vs watching on TV, but I also think he also makes a pretty clear line between when he's being an unbiased journalist and when he's being a biased reviewer. And his reviews are usually great, so just read the review and ignore the star rating if the ratings bug you. He usually does a very good job of articulating his opinion too. I don't think this response addressed a single thing you said, but it's still worth saying so I'm gonna post it anyways
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Sept 8, 2017 11:34:30 GMT -5
All of this depends on the kind of bias we are discussing. I think it's fine to be biased towards different styles if you have good reasons for it. I totally get why Dave prefers New Japan matches and I get why someone wouldn't. It would be a problem if he let his relationships with certain wrestlers or companies influence his reporting or match ratings. It is obviously pure speculation since we can't get inside his head but I have never heard Dave give a rating or opinion that hasn't made sense to me even if I disagreed with it so I personally don't believe this is the case. I think he can have fun at a show like PWG and still give his honest opinion of their work just as I think former NFL players can give honest critiques of former teammates they were close with.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Sept 8, 2017 11:47:26 GMT -5
Dijak/Lee got 5 Stars from BOLA Night 3, rest ranged from 3-4.5
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Sept 8, 2017 12:43:46 GMT -5
There's nothing biased about those calls at all. Meltzer was at this match live and the entire room was chanting "5 star match" at him. The crowd was absolutely off the charts and I'd say it be pretty close to impossible for a person not to be influenced by that atmosphere. That match was good, but I can name dozens of WWE or ROH matches that didn't receive 5 stars yet were significantly better than the PWG 6-man. I think it's very reasonable to say there was plenty of bias in this call. How is that indicative of any "bias" beyond "biased toward wrestling he likes"? The match ratings are his own personal feelings and criteria about a given match, and it's not like he's throwing Kenny Omega high ratings just because Kenny's been on Observer radio. You realize that "bias toward wrestling he likes" is still being biased, right? If a music reviewer loves heavy metal and gives inflated reviews of metal albums compared to other genres, the reviewer is being biased, no? Meltzer is obviously biased towards Japanese wrestling. Yes, it's because he prefers that style of wrestling, but it's still biased. I think a journalist should leave things as objective as possible and leave personal preferences out of their reviews. Meltzer absolutely does not do that. "Man has very nice time at show, lets his enjoyment colour his rating of the match when later talking about it" feels like a weird sticking point for me? That music reviewer who loves metal is probably going to be assigned metal and metal-ish stuff for that publication because unless you're Blabbermouth.net you generally want to put people who will likely enjoy the music they're about to be reviewing in there so they can give accurate reviews as a fan of that kind of music, and then readers can understand where a fan is coming from in what they're saying. There is no "in a vacuum" objectivity to reviews in anything. THat's not how reviews work. And I think where you're missing the mark is in calling him a journalist here. He absolutely is, but his show reviews are not journalism. When he does report on news, he does so very plainly and matter of factly; when there are comments, they're coming from an understanding of the business and what the climate of it is rather than just "Oh it's these f***s again so it's going to suck". I don't think he's biased against WWE or toward something that isn't WWE at all; I think WWE's weaknesses are keeping it down. He tends to be much more charitable to WWE shows I think are atrocious than I think someone who doesn't give WWE its fair shake would be, but WWE isn't trying to put on the level of show that New Japan is, aren't trying to tell stories on the same level or let their top workers fight their other top workers. You're expecting objective truths about something that literally cannot be objective.
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