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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Apr 2, 2018 8:04:50 GMT -5
There's so much middle ground in the extremes of "this offensive storyline happened where a Canadian insulted the US but he was only playing a character on TV" and "this homophobe disrespected people for their orientation at the show". Like the dude may have figured "I'll get the fans to boo me" but there is a huge difference of mind and intention when his heel tactics align with his actual, vocal beliefs, because that's not "be a villain and do wrong things to make them hate me" that's "be who I am but disguise my assholery under wrestling alignment". Like, ignore for a second that all of the most interesting wrestling villains right now can be vile without traipsing all over sensitive issues and shit. All of this "How is he supposed to know a rainbow means gay pride?" stuff and comments to the effect of that ignore that he was actively disrespecting something he dislikes enough to threaten violence over. HBK humping the Canadian flag was offensive, but does Shawn Michaels the man think that you should shoot Canadians? No. If you want to separate art from artist then fine, but there is an undeniable personal element to some peoples' art that you can't overlook and brush off as coincidental.
Wrestling is known to be a work, and the art of heeling is absolutely 100% something people are in on. They understand cheap heat, but if you do cheap heat well enough they'll boo you even if they like you. Elias is doing that right now, getting crowds to turn on him with molten fury when they start out cheering his arrival. At an indie show especially, I find there's a willingness to be active and buy into the heels and the faces doing their thing among the passionate audience members there for a fun wrestling show. What Jay did was not bringing in something to make the audience boo him in a fun way, it was singling out audience members who he legitimately holds horrific views on and using their identities to position himself as a bad guy, while in his own mind not actually being the bad guy due to aforementioned views. He legitimately targeted those people for things he believes the should be shot over. That's not heeling. That's not just an innocent gesture the SJWs are taking as too far because their sensitive feelings were hurt.
I don't know when empathy became something to laugh at but there is nothing noble about clamming yourself up and refusing to show any compassion or understanding to people no matter how many times you throw around snarky "current year" remarks and act like the real danger in society is people who get offended by things. It's amazing how many of these threads boil down to some people just refusing to cede to basic decency and have to turn "this upsets me as someone whose day-to-day life is legitimately negatively effected by this behavior" into some kind of shitty culture war where the only people who are wrong are the ones who complain.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Apr 2, 2018 8:17:17 GMT -5
All those tweets are showing real intolerance from those people, telling people who dont think like they do to "pick a hill to die on" Like there are homophobic c***s, some homosexuals are also among the biggest c***s on earth, because they are extremists. He wants me to die, I want him to not be on a wrestling show. How am I the extremist c*** here?
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
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I ❤ Aniki
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Post by Dub H on Apr 2, 2018 8:21:03 GMT -5
All those tweets are showing real intolerance from those people, telling people who dont think like they do to "pick a hill to die on" Like there are homophobic c***s, some homosexuals are also among the biggest c***s on earth, because they are extremists. He wants me to die, I want him to not be on a wrestling show. How am I the extremist c*** here? Now,lets not fight,no one called anyone anything here.This is not about any of you personally
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 8:28:01 GMT -5
the guy said he's gonna shoot anyone who dares to teach his children taht being gay is normal! this can't be shrugged off as a way to get heel heat.
Disgusting!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 8:28:50 GMT -5
If it happened on a wrestling show. Then it falls under the umbrella of artistic expression. Sure, it might be bad or tasteless art, but it's still art. If they literally beat up someone and choked them with the rainbow flag in real life, that's a different story. You're allowed to not like it. But the idea that it's "too far" or the Briscoes should be banned or boycotted. Is no different than the groups that want the ban sexual content on TV, violence in rap, or "satanism" in heavy metal. It's extreme art, meant to get a reaction and piss you off. In your opinion homophobia may have no place in wrestling because it's the current year. But your opinion doesn't dictate whats allowed in an entire genre. I would agree with this argument in most circumstances but Jay Briscoe was on thin ice as it were on this subject. It takes on a whole different context when a performer has expressed views as extreme in the past as he has. It crosses a line when not only does a performer think like he does, but now he's pulling an audience member that was the subject of his ire into the show. It's got to be uncomfortable for the LGBT members of the audience to play show business with the guy who has said what he said. You can debate what is and isn't a work here, and you can call it artistic expression, but art is open to scrutiny as well and the response to the art is valid. Everyone has a right to an opinion as Jay has to perform it, but it would do art a disservice to throw your hands up and say "it's art, my hands are tied here." I agree with the fact that where Jay may have crossed the line is that the flag belonged to a fan. This causes a weird territory between whats real and kayfabe. For example, if he grabbed a fan's phone and smashed it, that's not part of the show. Someone needs to pay for the phone. Jay is open to all criticism, just like any form of art. If he made bad art, then he should be called out on it. It's all good, as long as it's criticism and doesn't become censorship. Which is what some seem to be advocating when it comes to what should or shouldn't be allowed in wrestling.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Apr 2, 2018 8:43:26 GMT -5
I think this is no different than a lot of what you see today in that everyone is so polarized in their beliefs way more so than they use to be. There is a huge section of this country that is still very homophobic and there is no way around it, I mean hell I live in the midwest I can find that in minutes.
I have a friend who tries to get a long with everyone but if a lesbian couple kisses in front of his daughter who is nearly 15 mind you, he looses his shit about how wrong that is. People are products of their environments and a lot of times there isn't much we can do about that. But I will say this flipping shit about something isn't likely to make someone come to an understand it's more likely to make them dig in and think "see I'm right'.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 2, 2018 9:03:30 GMT -5
I would agree with this argument in most circumstances but Jay Briscoe was on thin ice as it were on this subject. It takes on a whole different context when a performer has expressed views as extreme in the past as he has. It crosses a line when not only does a performer think like he does, but now he's pulling an audience member that was the subject of his ire into the show. It's got to be uncomfortable for the LGBT members of the audience to play show business with the guy who has said what he said. You can debate what is and isn't a work here, and you can call it artistic expression, but art is open to scrutiny as well and the response to the art is valid. Everyone has a right to an opinion as Jay has to perform it, but it would do art a disservice to throw your hands up and say "it's art, my hands are tied here." I agree with the fact that where Jay may have crossed the line is that the flag belonged to a fan. This causes a weird territory between whats real and kayfabe. For example, if he grabbed a fan's phone and smashed it, that's not part of the show. Someone needs to pay for the phone. Jay is open to all criticism, just like any form of art. If he made bad art, then he should be called out on it. It's all good, as long as it's criticism and doesn't become censorship. Which is what some seem to be advocating when it comes to what should or shouldn't be allowed in wrestling. Bigotry towards minorities should not be a part of wrestling, whether it's sexual, racial, or gender based. If I was going on a critical plane I'd say that's it's the cheapest of cheap heat, is beyond outdated, and ultimately devalues wrestling as an art form. If someone can't be a heel without resorting to thuggery and fascistic tendencies, they're not very good at their job. But this isn't about artistry or criticism, I'm quite happy to say that I'd like it to be censored. I don't want to go to a wrestling show wondering if the basic, intrinsic aspects of my humanity are going to be insulted or degraded. That's ultimately not what it's for. I want to go and have fun like anyone else.
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Post by celtics543 on Apr 2, 2018 9:11:12 GMT -5
Are the Briscoes homophobic in real life...from the sound of it yes. Are they terrible people...most likely yes. But this is wrestling, people get offended by stuff and it gets the heels heat. I know you don't want to hear this argument because it effects you personally but things like this get people heat. Watch Bubba Ray Dudley give a promo in ECW in 1998 and tell me that didn't offend people. Watch Muhammad Hassan do his schtick in 2005 and tell me that didn't offend people. Watch HBK hump the Canadian flag and tell me that didn't offend people. Goldust in 1995 was a much more offensive character than any of those and he gets praised today as a groundbreaking icon of the Attitude Era. Bret Hart ripped the US in his promos in 1997 and it's considered the best work of his career. The Nation of Domination was a black panther type stable and it's remembered fondly. Billy and Chuck had a fake gay wedding and it got national news. Wrestling has always pushed the envelope. Now it sounds like the Briscoes pushed a button that turned people off instead of got them heel heat but it doesn't sound like what they did was out of line with what wrestling has been doing since Gorgeous George was throwing bobby pins into the crowd. I'm also not saying that you should be ok with what they did. It's well within your rights to be offended and never spend money or time on them again but I don't see this as any worse than watching Trish bark like a dog or the Unamericans threaten to burn the American flag. I get what you're saying but there's a reason why all those examples were 10/20/30 years ago. The Nation of Domination wouldn't happen today, neither would the DX parody of them. Sandow did a lame ripoff of Gorgeous George in TNA and it was rightly universally panned. I completely agree. You'd like to think that society has moved beyond the archaic views of yesteryear. Wrestling has always used hot button topics with heels to get heat though and I can see the line of thinking with this. I don't agree with it but I can understand why they may have thought this makes sense. The same reason Sgt SLaughter Iraqi sympathizer, Fritz Von Erich the evil German, Communist Nikolai Volkoff, and Muhammad Hassan were presented in their time periods. Right now homosexuality is probably more accepted by the masses than at any point in modern history. Someone who is homophobic is now a huge heel where 20 years ago they would have been a huge babyface, that's a huge change in the Pride movement. Again, Briscoes are jerks and terrible people for their personal views, but I can understand how they assumed this would get them heel heat.
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Post by celtics543 on Apr 2, 2018 9:22:27 GMT -5
I agree with the fact that where Jay may have crossed the line is that the flag belonged to a fan. This causes a weird territory between whats real and kayfabe. For example, if he grabbed a fan's phone and smashed it, that's not part of the show. Someone needs to pay for the phone. Jay is open to all criticism, just like any form of art. If he made bad art, then he should be called out on it. It's all good, as long as it's criticism and doesn't become censorship. Which is what some seem to be advocating when it comes to what should or shouldn't be allowed in wrestling. Bigotry towards minorities should not be a part of wrestling, whether it's sexual, racial, or gender based. If I was going on a critical plane I'd say that's it's the cheapest of cheap heat, is beyond outdated, and ultimately devalues wrestling as an art form. If someone can't be a heel without resorting to thuggery and fascistic tendencies, they're not very good at their job. But this isn't about artistry or criticism, I'm quite happy to say that I'd like it to be censored. I don't want to go to a wrestling show wondering if the basic, intrinsic aspects of my humanity are going to be insulted or degraded. That's ultimately not what it's for. I want to go and have fun like anyone else. That's an extremely fair thing to feel. When I read it I thought of Roddy Piper who pretty much did everything you mentioned in that first paragraph, painting himself half black, shaving the head of a midget, everything from the Goldust feud. My only question is where do you think the line should be? In all honesty I'm a straight, white, male who lives in a northeastern predominantly white town so I've never really been in the minority. I have no idea what it's like to be a minority in a crowd, so I can't even begin to understand how it makes you feel in these environments.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Apr 2, 2018 9:36:44 GMT -5
So far we have flaming, filter dodges, and people telling others that their opinion is wrong and stupid. All of that stops or the thread ends. You want a discussion on what happens on a show, who should be booked, real life bleeding onto a show, and all of that fine but the rules still apply. Thank you.
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Steveweiser
Dalek
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Post by Steveweiser on Apr 2, 2018 9:38:30 GMT -5
I was at last night's show, and until I saw the tweet later, I was unaware that people had walked out, and they deserve credit for doing so. It was still a very uneasy feeling when the Briscoes were in the ring, and people were very worried that they'd go over, but there were in there with Trent Seven who's one of the co-owners, and I know Trent to be a very progressive individual. The "don't come back" chant was very loud, and the Briscoes definitely took heed of it. After the show (not sure about during it because I spent most of intermission talking with my friends and with Matt Riddle), everyone on the show (and even people who weren't on it like Clint Margera, Millie McKenzie and MK McKinnan) were hanging around talking to fans, and I spotted the Briscoes leaving trying not to be noticed.
All in all, this backfired massively on Fight Club: PRO, affecting what was by far their biggest weekend to date. The fan base who attend their shows is truly diverse, and anyone who opposes modern society in that way needs to be held to account. Or ideally, not be booked at all.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Apr 2, 2018 9:55:46 GMT -5
So far we have flaming, filter dodges, and people telling others that their opinion is wrong and stupid. All of that stops or the thread ends. You want a discussion on what happens on a show, who should be booked, real life bleeding onto a show, and all of that fine but the rules still apply. Thank you. My apologies, I wasn't really thinking when embedding the tweet with the banned words.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Apr 2, 2018 9:56:02 GMT -5
Here's another thing imo. While there are similarities to race and to white heels doing a program with a black babyface like JYD:
1. I'm not an expert but I don't think overt racism figured into JYD angles. If I'm incorrect it will make my later point even stronger.
2. JYD, Atlas, et.al never had to "come out" as black and thus were hereos and avatars for fans who wanted to see someone who looked like them fight off those evil bastards. Especially if they beat up racists red necks.
3. There are very few wrestlers who are out and even fewer who embrace their sexuality as oaet of their persona as a wrestler. Secondly because sexuality is tied both into a persons being and a persons actions it is harder find a wreatler who will be an avatar for LGBTQ fans. There is no (as far as I know) no out wrestler who is a babyface who could beat the homophobes and openly embrace their boyfriend or husband to show those fans that someone similar to them can suceed in wrestling. Even in the crazy bubble of wrestling that doesn't exist.
So the Briscoe seem to be shoot homophobes and maybe as a work they used the Pride flag to get heat in a venue with a lot of LGBTQ fans who had no hero from their community to represent them. It's no wonder to me why those fans will betrayed and upset.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Apr 2, 2018 9:59:56 GMT -5
3. There are very few wrestlers who are out and even fewer who embrace their sexuality as oaet of their persona as a wrestler. Secondly because sexuality is tied both into a persons being and a persons actions it is harder find a wreatler who will be an avatar for LGBTQ fans. There is no (as far as I know) no out wrestler who is a babyface who could beat the homophobes and openly embrace their boyfriend or husband to show those fans that someone similar to them can suceed in wrestling. Even in the crazy bubble of wrestling that doesn't exist. So the Briscoe seem to be shoot homophobes and maybe as a work they used the Pride flag to get heat in a venue with a lot of LGBTQ fans who had no hero from their community to represent them. It's no wonder to me why those fans will betrayed and upset. To be fair, there is Jack Sexsmith who is openly pansexual and is quickly becoming one of the biggest faces on the UK scene. Unfortunately(or maybe fortunately) he wasn't booked on this show. There was, however, a few "We want Sexsmith" chants during the Briscoes match on Saturday. I completely agree with your point though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 10:55:09 GMT -5
Here's another thing imo. While there are similarities to race and to white heels doing a program with a black babyface like JYD: 1. I'm not an expert but I don't think overt racism figured into JYD angles. If I'm incorrect it will make my later point even stronger. 2. JYD, Atlas, et.al never had to "come out" as black and thus were hereos and avatars for fans who wanted to see someone who looked like them fight off those evil bastards. Especially if they beat up racists red necks. 3. There are very few wrestlers who are out and even fewer who embrace their sexuality as oaet of their persona as a wrestler. Secondly because sexuality is tied both into a persons being and a persons actions it is harder find a wreatler who will be an avatar for LGBTQ fans. There is no (as far as I know) no out wrestler who is a babyface who could beat the homophobes and openly embrace their boyfriend or husband to show those fans that someone similar to them can suceed in wrestling. Even in the crazy bubble of wrestling that doesn't exist. So the Briscoe seem to be shoot homophobes and maybe as a work they used the Pride flag to get heat in a venue with a lot of LGBTQ fans who had no hero from their community to represent them. It's no wonder to me why those fans will betrayed and upset. I don't know if you necessarily need a gay protagonist to step up to the Briscoes, though it would obviously help. To have babyfaces who actively take up the cause, gay or straight, and hold them accountable for what they said would help. I don't know how the match specifically went, but it doesn't sound like the babyface team really took them to task for their words, and more or less just happened to be their opponents that night. To have someone tell them their world view is shit and give the audience someone to live vicariously through as they make them pay would be a good way to play it out. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like the Briscoes cut a heinous promo, then the opposing team came out and they just had a wrestling match without really addressing the subject matter. Without having babyfaces voice their opposition against the heels, and fight on the behalf of the discriminated then you put the onus on the audience to make the heels pay for it and that's not a fair spot to put any crowd in. Then again that might not have mattered in this case anyways because ripping the pride flag from the audience, there's no justifying that.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,986
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Post by chazraps on Apr 2, 2018 10:55:46 GMT -5
I would agree with this argument in most circumstances but Jay Briscoe was on thin ice as it were on this subject. It takes on a whole different context when a performer has expressed views as extreme in the past as he has. It crosses a line when not only does a performer think like he does, but now he's pulling an audience member that was the subject of his ire into the show. It's got to be uncomfortable for the LGBT members of the audience to play show business with the guy who has said what he said. You can debate what is and isn't a work here, and you can call it artistic expression, but art is open to scrutiny as well and the response to the art is valid. Everyone has a right to an opinion as Jay has to perform it, but it would do art a disservice to throw your hands up and say "it's art, my hands are tied here." I agree with the fact that where Jay may have crossed the line is that the flag belonged to a fan. This causes a weird territory between whats real and kayfabe. For example, if he grabbed a fan's phone and smashed it, that's not part of the show. Someone needs to pay for the phone. Jay is open to all criticism, just like any form of art. If he made bad art, then he should be called out on it. It's all good, as long as it's criticism and doesn't become censorship. Which is what some seem to be advocating when it comes to what should or shouldn't be allowed in wrestling. Please really look at what censorship is. This isn't the government threatening to send Jay Briscoe to jail. All those tweets are showing real intolerance from those people, telling people who dont think like they do to "pick a hill to die on" Like there are homophobic c***s, some homosexuals are also among the biggest c***s on earth, because they are extremists. What are you talking about? Are the Briscoes homophobic in real life...from the sound of it yes. Are they terrible people...most likely yes. But this is wrestling, people get offended by stuff and it gets the heels heat. I know you don't want to hear this argument because it effects you personally but things like this get people heat. Watch Bubba Ray Dudley give a promo in ECW in 1998 and tell me that didn't offend people. Watch Muhammad Hassan do his schtick in 2005 and tell me that didn't offend people. Watch HBK hump the Canadian flag and tell me that didn't offend people. Goldust in 1995 was a much more offensive character than any of those and he gets praised today as a groundbreaking icon of the Attitude Era. Bret Hart ripped the US in his promos in 1997 and it's considered the best work of his career. The Nation of Domination was a black panther type stable and it's remembered fondly. Billy and Chuck had a fake gay wedding and it got national news. Wrestling has always pushed the envelope. Now it sounds like the Briscoes pushed a button that turned people off instead of got them heel heat but it doesn't sound like what they did was out of line with what wrestling has been doing since Gorgeous George was throwing bobby pins into the crowd. I'm also not saying that you should be ok with what they did. It's well within your rights to be offended and never spend money or time on them again but I don't see this as any worse than watching Trish bark like a dog or the Unamericans threaten to burn the American flag. It's 2018 and times change. All businesses and forms of entertainment have had to evolve. Wrestling is not exempt. Also, you should read up on the actual history of the Black Panthers. Additionally, Billy and Chuck's wedding got favorable press because it was promoted as a moment of inclusion. I think this is no different than a lot of what you see today in that everyone is so polarized in their beliefs way more so than they use to be. There is a huge section of this country that is still very homophobic and there is no way around it, I mean hell I live in the midwest I can find that in minutes. I have a friend who tries to get a long with everyone but if a lesbian couple kisses in front of his daughter who is nearly 15 mind you, he looses his shit about how wrong that is. People are products of their environments and a lot of times there isn't much we can do about that. But I will say this flipping shit about something isn't likely to make someone come to an understand it's more likely to make them dig in and think "see I'm right'. Nah, deplatforming works. If the person takes the "See I'm Right" approach when faced with the fact that they're being racist/sexist/homophobic, that's a major malfunction on their end and it's not of the responsibility of anyone but their backwards selves to improve. What steps have you taken to correct your friend's homophobia? That's really f***ed up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 11:18:50 GMT -5
I agree with the fact that where Jay may have crossed the line is that the flag belonged to a fan. This causes a weird territory between whats real and kayfabe. For example, if he grabbed a fan's phone and smashed it, that's not part of the show. Someone needs to pay for the phone. Jay is open to all criticism, just like any form of art. If he made bad art, then he should be called out on it. It's all good, as long as it's criticism and doesn't become censorship. Which is what some seem to be advocating when it comes to what should or shouldn't be allowed in wrestling. Please really look at what censorship is. This isn't the government threatening to send Jay Briscoe to jail. [ Im well aware of what censorship is. There's some that seem to be in favor of exactly that. Obviously the government doesn't care what is done at the indie show and Jay is in no danger. I'm against the mentality of "I'm offended. So change it to cater to my personal taste".
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Apr 2, 2018 11:51:01 GMT -5
Please really look at what censorship is. This isn't the government threatening to send Jay Briscoe to jail. [ Im well aware of what censorship is. There's some that seem to be in favor of exactly that. Obviously the government doesn't care what is done at the indie show and Jay is in no danger. I'm against the mentality of "I'm offended. So change it to cater to my personal taste". So from how I understand it: - Jay Briscoe sends that tweet, which in any other profession is a fireable offense and in some jurisdictions a criminal offense (freedom of speech doesn't cover death threats). He also has several other tweets complaining about "fags". - The Briscoes work in Manchester, which is like a klansman wrestling in Harlem. Not a klansman gimmick, literally a KKK member. - Team Homophobic Asshole steals and desecrates a fan's Pride Flag. - The people saying "we don't want these pricks here" are being overly offended somehow? Correct me if I missed anything here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 12:01:12 GMT -5
Im well aware of what censorship is. There's some that seem to be in favor of exactly that. Obviously the government doesn't care what is done at the indie show and Jay is in no danger. I'm against the mentality of "I'm offended. So change it to cater to my personal taste". So from how I understand it: - Jay Briscoe sends that tweet, which in any other profession is a fireable offense and in some jurisdictions a criminal offense (freedom of speech doesn't cover death threats). He also has several other tweets complaining about "fags". - The Briscoes work in Manchester, which is like a klansman wrestling in Harlem. Not a klansman gimmick, literally a KKK member. - Team Homophobic Asshole steals and desecrates a fan's Pride Flag. - The people saying "we don't want these pricks here" are being overly offended somehow? Correct me if I missed anything here. Again, yes you have the right to be offended. You have the right to hate Brisco, call him a asshole. Whatever you want. As long as you allow others to express themselves as they want to, even if that is being a homophobic redneck. I'm 100% in favor of all free speech. Even speech that hurts peoples feelings.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 2, 2018 12:14:20 GMT -5
So from how I understand it: - Jay Briscoe sends that tweet, which in any other profession is a fireable offense and in some jurisdictions a criminal offense (freedom of speech doesn't cover death threats). He also has several other tweets complaining about "fags". - The Briscoes work in Manchester, which is like a klansman wrestling in Harlem. Not a klansman gimmick, literally a KKK member. - Team Homophobic Asshole steals and desecrates a fan's Pride Flag. - The people saying "we don't want these pricks here" are being overly offended somehow? Correct me if I missed anything here. Again, yes you have the right to be offended. You have the right to hate Brisco, call him a asshole. Whatever you want. As long as you allow others to express themselves as they want to, even if that is being a homophobic redneck. I'm 100% in favor of all free speech. Even speech that hurts peoples feelings. Freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequence though. All it means is that the government can't throw you in jail if you say something they don't like. It does not mean that everything you say is beyond reproach and nobody is allowed to be critical of you. That's how discourse works. If you say something shitty, everyone else has the freedom to call you out on it. Nobody is saying the Briscoes should be thrown in jail, just that their comments and behavior have no place in wrestling in 2018.
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