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Post by Alice Syndrome on Apr 2, 2018 12:21:51 GMT -5
So from how I understand it: - Jay Briscoe sends that tweet, which in any other profession is a fireable offense and in some jurisdictions a criminal offense (freedom of speech doesn't cover death threats). He also has several other tweets complaining about "fags". - The Briscoes work in Manchester, which is like a klansman wrestling in Harlem. Not a klansman gimmick, literally a KKK member. - Team Homophobic Asshole steals and desecrates a fan's Pride Flag. - The people saying "we don't want these pricks here" are being overly offended somehow? Correct me if I missed anything here. Again, yes you have the right to be offended. You have the right to hate Brisco, call him a asshole. Whatever you want. As long as you allow others to express themselves as they want to, even if that is being a homophobic redneck. I'm 100% in favor of all free speech. Even speech that hurts peoples feelings. Huh, been a while since I broke this out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 12:26:45 GMT -5
Again, yes you have the right to be offended. You have the right to hate Brisco, call him a asshole. Whatever you want. As long as you allow others to express themselves as they want to, even if that is being a homophobic redneck. I'm 100% in favor of all free speech. Even speech that hurts peoples feelings. Freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequence though. All it means is that the government can't throw you in jail if you say something they don't like. It does not mean that everything you say is beyond reproach and nobody is allowed to be critical of you. That's how discourse works. If you say something shitty, everyone else has the freedom to call you out on it. Nobody is saying the Briscoes should be thrown in jail, just that their comments and behavior have no place in wrestling in 2018. Yes, I understand the technical definition of "censorship". The parents television council wasn't a government group. So while they weren't technically censoring the WWE. They were making it really difficult for the WWE to get sponsors and make a profit. Based on their own vision on what entertainment should be. The PTC wasn't censoring anyone, they were just being lame as hell. Some are advocating the same tactics of the PTC against Brisco.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 2, 2018 12:47:24 GMT -5
For people stanning for the Briscoes or using the "the other side is just as bad" false equivalency: Just say you don't like gay people and get it over with.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 7,709
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Post by Nosnorb on Apr 2, 2018 12:47:53 GMT -5
So from how I understand it: - Jay Briscoe sends that tweet, which in any other profession is a fireable offense and in some jurisdictions a criminal offense (freedom of speech doesn't cover death threats). He also has several other tweets complaining about "fags". - The Briscoes work in Manchester, which is like a klansman wrestling in Harlem. Not a klansman gimmick, literally a KKK member. - Team Homophobic Asshole steals and desecrates a fan's Pride Flag. - The people saying "we don't want these pricks here" are being overly offended somehow? Correct me if I missed anything here. Again, yes you have the right to be offended. You have the right to hate Brisco, call him a asshole. Whatever you want. As long as you allow others to express themselves as they want to, even if that is being a homophobic redneck. I'm 100% in favor of all free speech. Even speech that hurts peoples feelings. Thing is, it doesn't just hurt people's feelings. Hate speech normalizes and incites behaviour harmful to the targeted group, by encouraging others to mistreat, discrimate, engage in acts of prejudice and incite people to violence against that group. Say you are on the street and a dude is pedalling hate speech. Other people in the vicinity may very well think that because the guy is saying this stuff out loud, that it's fine for him to do so too, and that it is also fine to engage in acts of harassment and/or violence against a member of that group.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Apr 2, 2018 12:49:07 GMT -5
Again, yes you have the right to be offended. You have the right to hate Brisco, call him a asshole. Whatever you want. As long as you allow others to express themselves as they want to, even if that is being a homophobic redneck. I'm 100% in favor of all free speech. Even speech that hurts peoples feelings. Freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequence though. All it means is that the government can't throw you in jail if you say something they don't like. It does not mean that everything you say is beyond reproach and nobody is allowed to be critical of you. That's how discourse works. If you say something shitty, everyone else has the freedom to call you out on it. Nobody is saying the Briscoes should be thrown in jail, just that their comments and behavior have no place in wrestling in 2018. *shrug* and looks like they're getting backlash? I guess? I haven't heard of any of this on any other wrestling thing-online except here but hey, if fans are that upset I hope they stop suporting then or any company that promotes them. I stayed the f*** out of this thread because, with all due respect, all sides tend to get a lil crazy. I will say (without having seen any footage or read descriptions on here) how crazy wrestling is. If dude is playing a heel, his instinct is probably to garner as much heat as possible. Seeing the flag (I'm to assume) he probably thought it would get him a shitload of heat and went for it but didn't have the preventive thinking at the moment of "Wait this is a flag" or "I have a stigma because of things I've said" or "this could effect me financially" and just went for it. Wrestling is weird. There are definite lines, like the spitting fiasco recently and as of the last few years have shown, anything to do with a flag.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 12:55:38 GMT -5
Again, yes you have the right to be offended. You have the right to hate Brisco, call him a asshole. Whatever you want. As long as you allow others to express themselves as they want to, even if that is being a homophobic redneck. I'm 100% in favor of all free speech. Even speech that hurts peoples feelings. Thing is, it doesn't just hurt people's feelings. Hate speech normalizes and incites behaviour harmful to the targeted group, by encouraging others to mistreat, discrimate, engage in acts of prejudice and incite people to violence against that group. Say you are on the street and a dude is pedalling hate speech. Other people in the vicinity may very well think that because the guy is saying this stuff out loud, that it's fine for him to do so too, and that it is also fine to engage in acts of harassment and/or violence against a member of that group. Yes, dumb people will think it's ok. We can't regulate free speech based on how dumb people might abuse it.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,076
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 2, 2018 12:59:36 GMT -5
Again, yes you have the right to be offended. You have the right to hate Brisco, call him a asshole. Whatever you want. As long as you allow others to express themselves as they want to, even if that is being a homophobic redneck. I'm 100% in favor of all free speech. Even speech that hurts peoples feelings. Freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequence though. All it means is that the government can't throw you in jail if you say something they don't like. It does not mean that everything you say is beyond reproach and nobody is allowed to be critical of you. That's how discourse works. If you say something shitty, everyone else has the freedom to call you out on it. Nobody is saying the Briscoes should be thrown in jail, just that their comments and behavior have no place in wrestling in 2018. Yup, he used his free speech. Now all these other people are using THEIR free speech to tell him to f*** off. Except as far as I know no one's threatened to shoot him yet.
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Nr1Humanoid
Hank Scorpio
Is the #3 humanoid at best.
Posts: 5,509
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Apr 2, 2018 13:57:42 GMT -5
Maybe he just failed to find a pot of gold one too many times.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 2, 2018 14:00:43 GMT -5
It's funny how whenever the "free speech" windmill rears its ugly head, it's always arguing in favor of the disgusting person's free speech and telling the offended parties to, none so subtly, shut the f*** up because that disgusting person's free speech matters more.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,875
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Post by Dub H on Apr 2, 2018 14:08:26 GMT -5
For people stanning for the Briscoes or using the "the other side is just as bad" false equivalency: Just say you don't like gay people and get it over with. I agree the other side is bad too it irrelevant to this discussion but lets try not insult other board members and shove words into their mouths. As far I remember none of then ever showed any sort of negative feeling towards LGBT.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Apr 2, 2018 14:11:07 GMT -5
I agree with the fact that where Jay may have crossed the line is that the flag belonged to a fan. This causes a weird territory between whats real and kayfabe. For example, if he grabbed a fan's phone and smashed it, that's not part of the show. Someone needs to pay for the phone. Jay is open to all criticism, just like any form of art. If he made bad art, then he should be called out on it. It's all good, as long as it's criticism and doesn't become censorship. Which is what some seem to be advocating when it comes to what should or shouldn't be allowed in wrestling. Please really look at what censorship is. This isn't the government threatening to send Jay Briscoe to jail. All those tweets are showing real intolerance from those people, telling people who dont think like they do to "pick a hill to die on" Like there are homophobic c***s, some homosexuals are also among the biggest c***s on earth, because they are extremists. What are you talking about? Are the Briscoes homophobic in real life...from the sound of it yes. Are they terrible people...most likely yes. But this is wrestling, people get offended by stuff and it gets the heels heat. I know you don't want to hear this argument because it effects you personally but things like this get people heat. Watch Bubba Ray Dudley give a promo in ECW in 1998 and tell me that didn't offend people. Watch Muhammad Hassan do his schtick in 2005 and tell me that didn't offend people. Watch HBK hump the Canadian flag and tell me that didn't offend people. Goldust in 1995 was a much more offensive character than any of those and he gets praised today as a groundbreaking icon of the Attitude Era. Bret Hart ripped the US in his promos in 1997 and it's considered the best work of his career. The Nation of Domination was a black panther type stable and it's remembered fondly. Billy and Chuck had a fake gay wedding and it got national news. Wrestling has always pushed the envelope. Now it sounds like the Briscoes pushed a button that turned people off instead of got them heel heat but it doesn't sound like what they did was out of line with what wrestling has been doing since Gorgeous George was throwing bobby pins into the crowd. I'm also not saying that you should be ok with what they did. It's well within your rights to be offended and never spend money or time on them again but I don't see this as any worse than watching Trish bark like a dog or the Unamericans threaten to burn the American flag. It's 2018 and times change. All businesses and forms of entertainment have had to evolve. Wrestling is not exempt. Also, you should read up on the actual history of the Black Panthers. Additionally, Billy and Chuck's wedding got favorable press because it was promoted as a moment of inclusion. I think this is no different than a lot of what you see today in that everyone is so polarized in their beliefs way more so than they use to be. There is a huge section of this country that is still very homophobic and there is no way around it, I mean hell I live in the midwest I can find that in minutes. I have a friend who tries to get a long with everyone but if a lesbian couple kisses in front of his daughter who is nearly 15 mind you, he looses his shit about how wrong that is. People are products of their environments and a lot of times there isn't much we can do about that. But I will say this flipping shit about something isn't likely to make someone come to an understand it's more likely to make them dig in and think "see I'm right'. Nah, deplatforming works. If the person takes the "See I'm Right" approach when faced with the fact that they're being racist/sexist/homophobic, that's a major malfunction on their end and it's not of the responsibility of anyone but their backwards selves to improve. What steps have you taken to correct your friend's homophobia? That's really f***ed up. I tried to talk with him about it being just like anyone else and that he was being backwards thinking and there was just no changing it. He also had a huge shitfit about the transgender backthroom thing. Me personally I don't care what bathroom anyone uses, no big deal to me. He spins it into child molesters dressed like women in the bathroom with his kid. The guy spins everything into "This isn't ok for my kid" it's really mind numbing and I've distanced myself from him over the years. So I use the term friend very loosely.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Apr 2, 2018 14:16:30 GMT -5
For people stanning for the Briscoes or using the "the other side is just as bad" false equivalency: Just say you don't like gay people and get it over with. Here's the problem and I'm not going to say that this goes for what anyone is saying here either. Most of the younger generation which I would guess lots of people here are. I'd say the generation that is 30's and younger is more socially progressive than their parents. I'm from the midwest and I'm socially progressive but at the same time lots of people in this area and many other area's aren't I also think there are some American's that are homophobic and anti-gay I won't even question that but I also think we have this huge section that doesn't know what to do. They personally see progression and agree with it because they know it's right but they were raised in an area and in a way that teaches them that it's not ok. It's not exactly an easy spot for everyone to be in. But I will say this for awhile I thought we were seeing a lot of social progression and after the last few years I really question that, and I'll leave it at that.
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Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
Had one once
Everybody's Favorite Arizonian.
Posts: 31,075
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Apr 2, 2018 14:29:12 GMT -5
Man, this thread got uglier then Mark Briscoe.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Apr 2, 2018 14:33:58 GMT -5
It's funny how whenever the "free speech" windmill rears its ugly head, it's always arguing in favor of the disgusting person's free speech and telling the offended parties to, none so subtly, shut the f*** up because that disgusting person's free speech matters more. It's not that the "disgusting partys free speech matters more", free speech is partly important so that disgusting ideas, rhetoric and thinking are exposed. Isn't it a good thing those who are offended about what the Briscoe brother did are now aware and can now choose to no longer support him and/or companies that enable them?
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Post by Cyno on Apr 2, 2018 14:40:23 GMT -5
But the "free speech" argument often isn't that. It boils down to yelling "free speech!" in defense of the disgusting person whenever someone expresses that they're offended and/or refuse to support that person or the company that employs them.
Most of this thread have been people saying "f*** the Briscoes! I'm done with them and anyone who hires them," but there's been a persistent, fallacious free speech argument equivocating that to censorship.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Apr 2, 2018 14:46:22 GMT -5
Freedom of speech applies to the government not being allowed to suppress speech, not to people saying "That's f***ing vile please don't come back here". It never has any place in these discussions because rarely is anybody talking about the government censoring these f***s at all. It's baffling to me how many people want to ring up freedom of speech whenever possible and cram it into things as some kind of argument, but don't grasp that fact. Nobody's saying the Briscoes should be locked up for being homophobes, so the entire freedom doesn't come into play here.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Apr 2, 2018 14:54:16 GMT -5
It's irrelevant at this point, but I forgot to mention, on the show where Jay spoke about the crowd being 2nd class citizens and grabbed the flag, there was a bunch of people with PWGRRRLGANG in the front row.
PWGRRRLGANG is a great group which is designed for inclusion, they support wrestling fans of colour, LBGT, women, people with anxiety or people who don't have the friends to go to shows with. Basically any type of possible minority at wrestling shows. They even pay for peoples tickets if they can't afford them.
Anyway, I'd heard of them but wasn't fully aware of all the work they do on the UK scene, one good thing that has come out of this whole situation is I'm now aware of them and I'll be ordering their shirt to support the cause.
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Venti
Unicron
Posts: 3,000
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Post by Venti on Apr 2, 2018 15:19:56 GMT -5
As someone who identifies as bi, I honestly don't think it's a big deal, personally(key word there). Heels used to do way worse things than grab a flag out of the crowd.
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mattyy
Unicron
holy moly its the big homie
Posts: 3,105
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Post by mattyy on Apr 2, 2018 15:25:06 GMT -5
As someone who identifies as bi, I honestly don't think it's a big deal, personally(key word there). Heels used to do way worse things than grab a flag out of the crowd. I'd say the difference being if it were, say, Zack Gibson that did it.. I think it'd be different. If it were Gibson, I myself identify as pansexual, I would chalk it up to getting heat. "Don't wave a flag while I'm talking it's disrespectful to me, SOON TO BE LIVAHPEWLS NUMBAH ONE... etc" being that it's someone who, while the main babyface of the company, tweeted that he would S H O O T anyone that taught his kid that gay marriage is okay.. that's where I draw the line.
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Post by eJm on Apr 2, 2018 15:40:24 GMT -5
As someone who identifies as bi, I honestly don't think it's a big deal, personally(key word there). Heels used to do way worse things than grab a flag out of the crowd. I'd say the difference being if it were, say, Zack Gibson that did it.. I think it'd be different. If it were Gibson, I myself identify as pansexual, I would chalk it up to getting heat. "Don't wave a flag while I'm talking it's disrespectful to me, SOON TO BE LIVAHPEWLS NUMBAH ONE... etc" being that it's someone who, while the main babyface of the company, tweeted that he would S H O O T anyone that taught his kid that gay marriage is okay.. that's where I draw the line. Also, if we’re talking about “offensive” stuff, Gibson has a means to his stuff. I was at the OTT show and he kinda sorta confirmed WWE were signing him to a UK deal but he used it in a way that bad mouthed Irish Wrestling (“I’m Ireland’s #1” before the match “Easiest paycheck” after he won) but also added more fuel to the cockiness (“The cream rises to the top, I’m aiming to be the world #1” etc) so him saying someone put the flag down while he’s talking is not disrespecting the flag, it’s him being a general buzzkill. The only reason to use that flag and say those things was to make the crowd feel a certain way is fine to use as heat. Considering there are heels that don’t need to do that to get booed (and seriously, Gibson’s booed like hell without it), it seems less adapting and playing characters than showing real life personas. And again, he said he wanted to shoot people. As in with a gun.
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