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Post by héad.casé on May 19, 2018 7:05:10 GMT -5
Just listened to Bischoff's 83 weeks podcast where he speaks about Bret and WCW. It was very interesting, and it doesn't come as any surprise to me that the guys booking WCW at the time had no idea what to do with Bret, but it did surprise me that Bret had no ideas himself to put forward. Then again, thinking about it, it shouldn't surprise me - because you had a Bret who was still hurt by Montreal and was unmotivated, just going through the motions.
But we'll always have the time Bret wore a metal plate around his midsection under his hockey jersey that knocked Goldberg out when he speared Bret.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2018 7:50:43 GMT -5
This seems like deflection from Bischoff. I find it hard to believe that between Bischoff, Bret, Dusty, and whoever the else they had with a wrestling mind they didn’t know what to do with the WWF Champion that was just legit screwed out of the title only a few weeks before he debuted. Had to keep Hogan happy and continue running the nWo into the ground though.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 19, 2018 8:24:46 GMT -5
Bischoff I full of excrement, as usual. They intentionally booked Bret in a way designed to kill both his motivation and heat, doing the same thing they did to Flair and Lex Luger. It isn't Bret's job to book the main event scene, that's why you have a booking team, their sole purpose is to come up with GOOD ideas to use the talent available, and their failure is Bischoff's not Bret's.
He was responsible for putting the Hogan filter in place too, giving Hulk the power of veto over all main event booking, whether he's involved or not, and there was always some reason booking didn't pass the orange goblin litmus test.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 19, 2018 9:25:54 GMT -5
Bischoff I full of excrement, as usual. They intentionally booked Bret in a way designed to kill both his motivation and heat, doing the same thing they did to Flair and Lex Luger. It isn't Bret's job to book the main event scene, that's why you have a booking team, their sole purpose is to come up with GOOD ideas to use the talent available, and their failure is Bischoff's not Bret's. He was responsible for putting the Hogan filter in place too, giving Hulk the power of veto over all main event booking, whether he's involved or not, and there was always some reason booking didn't pass the orange goblin litmus test. In fairness to Biscoff, even Bret's friends in WCW at the time stated he wanted nothing to do with giving ideas or helping the office after the year he had in WWF with creative (and Montreal) and apparently Bret didnt start getting involved until late 98 at which point he tore his groin. He then came up with some ideas for 99 but Owen died and derailed them |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2018 9:30:20 GMT -5
It's easy, don't have his PPV debut as a ref for your match with Larry f***ing Zbyszko. Have him show up unannounced at Starrcade and have him challenge the winner of Sting/Hogan.
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Post by evilone on May 19, 2018 9:33:32 GMT -5
Bret was unmotivated because of Montreal? That cannot be further from the truth. He couldn't wait to give his best and beat WWF.
Reason why it didn't workout is quite simple: Bret was the ultimate main event player, WCW had only one ultimate main eventer until that point Hulk Hogan. You could argue Goldberg was there as well. In order for Bret Hart to work he would need to be in the main event most of the time and close to the title most of the time. Because he didn't that why we got such a confusing booking of Bret going back and forth. They would only use him enough to spark the interest but not to come close to main event. End of story.
Perfect scenario for Bret was either:
1)Ultimate WCW fighter clearing the house from nWo(WWF) guys beating Hogan clean for the championship
2)Replacing Hulk Hogan as the leader of nWo after Hogan crumbles and fumbles few months prior to make it look like Vince's has sent Bret to reinforce nWo. After that Hogan goes on red and yellow redemption tour and single handedly dismantles nWo one by one including Bret.
But of course both of these were in fantasy booking domain due to Hogan creative saying.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 19, 2018 9:55:35 GMT -5
One problem Bret had is that most of the guys he wanted to work with like Hennig were purely midcard by 1998. Savage got hurt before any real program could develop there as well. Bret Hart's 1997 run in some ways killed his career, given his USA bashing gimmick and the way he was portrayed. In Bret's book he details talking to Vince about staying but that given the way he was booked he didn't even know what to do with himself since he turned on the fans in America but then Vince gave the top heel spot to Michaels, so now Bret was a lukewarm heel. As far as Bret in WCW, I dunno. I guess you could either have him try to destroy the NWO once and for all or he could usurp Hogan and become the new leader (which is what kinda happened in late 1999 before his career ended).
It's the old Ralph Kiner "We can finish last without you" story, except it's really more like Nomar Garciaparra where getting rid of the guy actually wins you the World Series.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 19, 2018 10:05:05 GMT -5
In fairness to Biscoff, even Bret's friends in WCW at the time stated he wanted nothing to do with giving ideas or helping the office after the year he had in WWF with creative (and Montreal) and apparently Bret didnt start getting involved until late 98 at which point he tore his groin. He then came up with some ideas for 99 but Owen died and derailed them The thing is he was hired as a wrestler, not to be part of the creative team, that was not his job, no matter how many times Bischoff repeats it to justify the shitty booking under his watch. If they wanted Bret to provide more input, they could have, you know, asked him, not flipped him from face to heel without rhyme or reason every other Nitro in an intentional attempt to kill his heat. I'd be a little more willing to at least consider Bret being unmotivated as factor if it wasn't for the fact they did the same thing to every main event face, except Hogan, Flair, we saw what the NWO did to the horsemen, Sting's big win will live on in notoriety, Luger was publicly kneecapped and shunted down to the midcard, Goldberg's first major title feud was with Curt Hennig, who wasn't even a top guy in the NWO at that time, then Bam Bam who was quickly and unsubtly shunted aside to make way for Nash, then the fingerpoke because Hogan wanted the belt and didn't care how he got it. If it happened just the once, you could maybe give Bischoff the benefit of the doubt, but the same crap happened to everyone but Hogan and Nash so the blame has to lie with him, Hogan and Sullivan. |
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on May 19, 2018 10:41:38 GMT -5
This seems like deflection from Bischoff. I find it hard to believe that between Bischoff, Bret, Dusty, and whoever the else they had with a wrestling mind they didn’t know what to do with the WWF Champion that was just legit screwed out of the title only a few weeks before he debuted. Had to keep Hogan happy and continue running the nWo into the ground though. Exactly this. Especially coming in around Starrcade ‘97 when the torch should have been passed to Sting and the NWO being wrapped up, the story seems to write itself. WCW champion vs. former WWE champ who never legitimately lost the title was a story that could have put the nail in the coffin for WWE. Hogan torpedoed that real quick tho. |
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Post by The Rick Jericho on May 19, 2018 10:51:36 GMT -5
Booking in 60 seconds.
Comes in as the "undefeated world champion".
Takes apart the nWo one by one. Faces Hogan at the Georgia Dome. Wins WCW title.
Done.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on May 19, 2018 11:46:31 GMT -5
I'm legit angry about this. If they didn't have a plan for Bret, why spend the money?! He wasn't hurting for work and in Vince's estimation was an active drain on their resources. Literally no one benefitted from this call but WCW's competition, and for Bish to now throw up his hands and say "well, Bret should get some of the blame too" is straight up 100% grade A bullshit.
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Magnus the Magnificent
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on May 19, 2018 11:49:49 GMT -5
How I envision the inital booking meetings went:
"Hello and welcome to WCW, Bret! We'd like to hear any ideas of what you want to do in terms of booking."
"Thanks, Eric! Well, I've been toying about this idea of how I take on the NWO and ultimately wins the WCW championship..."
"Doesn't work for me, brother."
"Sorry, Bret, that's out of the question. Any other ideas?"
"Uh...whatever..."
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 19, 2018 12:10:44 GMT -5
The premis of his argument doesn't make too much given they were gifted a story and character people would have gotten behind with very little effort on their part
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 19, 2018 12:22:46 GMT -5
Bret should have been Sting's first feud witb the title, champion vs champion, with Bret putting Sting over CLEAN in the way Hulk Hogan did not. WCW benefits, Sting benefits, Bret benefits from hitting the ground running and raising Sting's hand to become the second lead face in the ongoing feud against the NWO, everyone benefits but Hogan... Which is why it couldn't happen.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on May 19, 2018 12:32:57 GMT -5
I guess facing Hogan like he wanted for years wasn't an idea? Maybe coming in at what could been the biggest face and FU to WWF for screwing and YOU had no idea how to use that? No wonder why WCW booking when to shits so fast because unless the NWO and Hogan wasn't going over, you had no ideas for years.
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Post by somsta on May 19, 2018 12:36:20 GMT -5
I'm legit angry about this. If they didn't have a plan for Bret, why spend the money?! He wasn't hurting for work and in Vince's estimation was an active drain on their resources. Literally no one benefitted from this call but WCW's competition, and for Bish to now throw up his hands and say "well, Bret should get some of the blame too" is straight up 100% grade A bullshit. But...but...they needed talent for Thunder!! |
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cjh
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Post by cjh on May 19, 2018 12:54:44 GMT -5
I'm legit angry about this. If they didn't have a plan for Bret, why spend the money?! He wasn't hurting for work and in Vince's estimation was an active drain on their resources. Literally no one benefitted from this call but WCW's competition, and for Bish to now throw up his hands and say "well, Bret should get some of the blame too" is straight up 100% grade A bullshit. But...but...they needed talent for Thunder!! Given how he was used, I actually believe that claim. They didn't have any ideas, so it had to be another reason. |
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Post by mauled on May 19, 2018 13:46:41 GMT -5
Just listened to Bischoff's 83 weeks podcast where he speaks about Bret and WCW. It was very interesting, and it doesn't come as any surprise to me that the guys booking WCW at the time had no idea what to do with Bret, but it did surprise me that Bret had no ideas himself to put forward. Then again, thinking about it, it shouldn't surprise me - because you had a Bret who was still hurt by Montreal and was unmotivated, just going through the motions. But we'll always have the time Bret wore a metal plate around his midsection under his hockey jersey that knocked Goldberg out when he speared Bret. There was a plan. Expand into the Canadian market with a Hogan v Bret feud doing a number of House shows etc there. Hogan killed that because he saw Bret as a threat. Bishoff still thinks the sun shines out of Hogans backsides so he went along with it. |
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Post by mauled on May 19, 2018 13:48:16 GMT -5
But...but...they needed talent for Thunder!! Given how he was used, I actually believe that claim. They didn't have any ideas, so it had to be another reason. Hogan .... When Eric took time off, Bret became Champion you don’t think that was a coincidence 🤔 |
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cjh
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Post by cjh on May 19, 2018 14:00:50 GMT -5
Given how he was used, I actually believe that claim. They didn't have any ideas, so it had to be another reason. Hogan .... When Eric took time off, Bret became Champion you don’t think that was a coincidence 🤔 Yeah, Eric was completely out of the picture when Bret became champion. Russo was writing the show. Eric said he wouldn't have signed Bret in 1997 if it wasn't for Thunder's upcoming debut. Given the way Bret was used, I can believe that. With the way he was used, or not used, it seemed like they just wanted to be able to have Bret Hart on the roster. |
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