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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jun 22, 2018 16:51:18 GMT -5
Stop. It's not some "mercy" or "benevolence". It's not. He saw someone on "his turf"(that he hardly ever uses, but that's another matter), and proceeded to roll over on their necks to cut off even the possibility. There's no need to paint WWE as some sort of "noble demon" here. They did a bad thing, that's preventing the possibility of grown from a smaller entity in their world. It's a bad thing. Yeah, I never said it was intentional benevolence on the WWE's part, or even implied it was. It was a shitty thing to do, but it prevented ROH pissing away they they don't have on a super expensive show in an arena they have no chance of filling. Don't get me wrong, I want ROH to grow, I just don't want them to overextend themselves in the process, I grew up watching WCW do stupid things like that, TNA over the past decade and change so I don't want to see a well run company fall into the traps that killed those two. You don't grow without pushing boundaries and seeing how far you get. This was that moment for ROH. Would it have made them money? Probably not. But it would have made them headlines, put eyes on them, gotten them buzz, which would have been a big deal for the company. Now, none of that happens. And you say Vince "did them a favor"....jesus.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 22, 2018 17:06:11 GMT -5
Yeah, I never said it was intentional benevolence on the WWE's part, or even implied it was. It was a shitty thing to do, but it prevented ROH pissing away they they don't have on a super expensive show in an arena they have no chance of filling. Don't get me wrong, I want ROH to grow, I just don't want them to overextend themselves in the process, I grew up watching WCW do stupid things like that, TNA over the past decade and change so I don't want to see a well run company fall into the traps that killed those two. You don't grow without pushing boundaries and seeing how far you get. This was that moment for ROH. Would it have made them money? Probably not. But it would have made them headlines, put eyes on them, gotten them buzz, which would have been a big deal for the company. Now, none of that happens. And you say Vince "did them a favor"....jesus. In that case TNA running money losing shows in halfempty arenas was also 'pushing boundaries' and a good thing... Except it wasn't, it caused them to bleed money they don't have. ROH's biggest solo show hasn't come anywhere close to the attendance that would suggest that they could fill MSG and make money doing so, so it wasn't a good idea. There are plenty of arenas they can run that are larger than those they've run in the past that aren't as hideously expensive as running MSG, they should be what they're aiming for rather than this. As for buzz being beneficial, ROH had buzz for years and years and years, they were losing money hand over fist despite that, so yeah, I don't see running an MSG show being the thing that makes them hit the big time. A bullet was dodged.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jun 22, 2018 17:13:27 GMT -5
You don't grow without pushing boundaries and seeing how far you get. This was that moment for ROH. Would it have made them money? Probably not. But it would have made them headlines, put eyes on them, gotten them buzz, which would have been a big deal for the company. Now, none of that happens. And you say Vince "did them a favor"....jesus. In that case TNA running money losing shows in halfempty arenas was also 'pushing boundaries' and a good thing... Except it wasn't, it caused them to bleed money they don't have. ROH's biggest solo show hasn't come anywhere close to the attendance that would suggest that they could fill MSG and make money doing so, so it wasn't a good idea. There are plenty of arenas they can run that are larger than those they've run in the past that aren't as hideously expensive as running MSG, they should be what they're aiming for rather than this. This isn't TNA running a PPV in Bumcrack, TN's biggest arena when all they have is Hulk Hogan's word that "It's a great idea, brother!". This is "The Garden". Being the first promotion not named "WWE" to promote there since the 60's is intstant headlines, and they're backed up by a company that can take the loss in order to net the kind of publicity that would get them for a one time loss that would net a greater gain over the long haul. That's what this was. It was pushing a boundary. Comparing it to TNA's non-sense is totally inaccurate.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jun 22, 2018 17:29:53 GMT -5
According to PWInsider, AAA still has a hold on two dates to run MSG, one in September and one later in the year that may get pushed back to 2019. So it doesn't so much look like WWE trying to keep the building but just trying to f*** with ROH. I wonder how much Vince believes of his philosophy that your not suppose to hurt the other guy I believe in Sasquatch more than I believe that's genuinely a thing Vince thinks
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 22, 2018 17:35:09 GMT -5
In that case TNA running money losing shows in halfempty arenas was also 'pushing boundaries' and a good thing... Except it wasn't, it caused them to bleed money they don't have. ROH's biggest solo show hasn't come anywhere close to the attendance that would suggest that they could fill MSG and make money doing so, so it wasn't a good idea. There are plenty of arenas they can run that are larger than those they've run in the past that aren't as hideously expensive as running MSG, they should be what they're aiming for rather than this. This isn't TNA running a PPV in Bumcrack, TN's biggest arena when all they have is Hulk Hogan's word that "It's a great idea, brother!". This is "The Garden". Being the first promotion not named "WWE" to promote there since the 60's is intstant headlines, and they're backed up by a company that can take the loss in order to net the kind of publicity that would get them for a one time loss that would net a greater gain over the long haul. That's what this was. It was pushing a boundary. Comparing it to TNA's non-sense is totally inaccurate. Sorry, I'm just not enough of an arena or wrestling history mark to believe a poorly attended, money losing show in MSG would be viewed as anything but a misstep in RoH's history book, alongside paying tens of thousands fir Ric Flair and keeping Gabe past his sell by date. I want them to do well, but I just don't see that helping them enough to justify the potential costs. If nearly two decades in business hasn't legitimised them in the eyes of fans and the media. running 'the garden' isn't going to do much. Trying to go from shows attended by 1400 people to a hugely expensive 10,000 seat venue because it would be historic is the kind of thing other promotions get mocked for. It's dumb when others do it and it's dumb now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 17:37:26 GMT -5
It's a bit crazy that we're even talking about the idea of ROH performing in the Garden like it's actually something that might happen.
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Post by burdette25159 on Jun 22, 2018 20:27:05 GMT -5
So there is talk that ROH has had discussions about using their local fox affiliates to pre empt SD in their own bit of revenge. Now that would be amazingly hilarious and a good bit of karma smacking WWE in the face for this move but I am wondering if they can really do that because from what I read local affiliates can do anything they want as long as the shows air at all or is that wrong. But if that were to happen, sinclair may have to pay the piper and kiss their fox affiliation goodbye! Fox paid a BILLION dollars for Smackdown and if Sinclair owned Fox affiliates are preempting it, Fox may as well take the Fox affiliation to another station that isn't owned by Sinclair (There is a local CW affiliate in the Charleston WV market, WQCW that would be willing to take the Fox affiliation if Sinclair's preemption threat comes true)
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Post by cabbageboy on Jun 22, 2018 22:20:56 GMT -5
ROH is a weird promotion. They more or less still have an indie vibe to them but being owned by Sinclair would hardly equate to being an indie promotion. If TNA thought keeping 2000 era WCW alive was a good idea then ROH seems like the modern extension of what ECW would have become.
Here's what I don't get about this right of first refusal thing. WWE isn't running MSG anytime around the WM season, so what exactly are they refusing? Isn't a right of first refusal in the event that someone wants to run a locale but someone has it locked down where they can run it first? Since WWE is running the Barclays Center that is a direct notice that they surrender their right of first refusal for that date. Maybe they have some lame little house show coming up early next year and there's a 90 day window involved? Either way this thing is going to court I would bet.
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Post by honsou on Jun 22, 2018 23:12:06 GMT -5
So there is talk that ROH has had discussions about using their local fox affiliates to pre empt SD in their own bit of revenge. Now that would be amazingly hilarious and a good bit of karma smacking WWE in the face for this move but I am wondering if they can really do that because from what I read local affiliates can do anything they want as long as the shows air at all or is that wrong. But if that were to happen, sinclair may have to pay the piper and kiss their fox affiliation goodbye! Fox paid a BILLION dollars for Smackdown and if Sinclair owned Fox affiliates are preempting it, Fox may as well take the Fox affiliation to another station that isn't owned by Sinclair (There is a local CW affiliate in the Charleston WV market, WQCW that would be willing to take the Fox affiliation if Sinclair's preemption threat comes true) Yeah those contracts last 3 to 5 years, unless they are just about to run out, Fox can't do anything until the contract runs out
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Post by corndog on Jun 23, 2018 0:17:05 GMT -5
This isn't TNA running a PPV in Bumcrack, TN's biggest arena when all they have is Hulk Hogan's word that "It's a great idea, brother!". This is "The Garden". Being the first promotion not named "WWE" to promote there since the 60's is intstant headlines, and they're backed up by a company that can take the loss in order to net the kind of publicity that would get them for a one time loss that would net a greater gain over the long haul. That's what this was. It was pushing a boundary. Comparing it to TNA's non-sense is totally inaccurate. Sorry, I'm just not enough of an arena or wrestling history mark to believe a poorly attended, money losing show in MSG would be viewed as anything but a misstep in RoH's history book, alongside paying tens of thousands fir Ric Flair and keeping Gabe past his sell by date. I want them to do well, but I just don't see that helping them enough to justify the potential costs. If nearly two decades in business hasn't legitimised them in the eyes of fans and the media. running 'the garden' isn't going to do much. Trying to go from shows attended by 1400 people to a hugely expensive 10,000 seat venue because it would be historic is the kind of thing other promotions get mocked for. It's dumb when others do it and it's dumb now. Big difference between ROH doing one show that could lose money to TNA constantly doing stupid crap to lose money all year round. Not to forget, outside of booking buildings WAY too big for TNA's attendance, they didn't properly advertise events and had a ridiculous payroll for their talent. ROH has been turning a profit for a while and have been building their attendance. Also, they have been playing it very safe and to get to the next level they have to take some risks. TNA was a company that tried to run before they could walk, ROH is walking just fine.
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Post by Larryhausen on Jun 23, 2018 4:09:57 GMT -5
My favorite thing about this thread is we have official confirmation that Ring of Honor knows we exist.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 23, 2018 4:37:56 GMT -5
Sorry, I'm just not enough of an arena or wrestling history mark to believe a poorly attended, money losing show in MSG would be viewed as anything but a misstep in RoH's history book, alongside paying tens of thousands fir Ric Flair and keeping Gabe past his sell by date. I want them to do well, but I just don't see that helping them enough to justify the potential costs. If nearly two decades in business hasn't legitimised them in the eyes of fans and the media. running 'the garden' isn't going to do much. Trying to go from shows attended by 1400 people to a hugely expensive 10,000 seat venue because it would be historic is the kind of thing other promotions get mocked for. It's dumb when others do it and it's dumb now. Big difference between ROH doing one show that could lose money to TNA constantly doing stupid crap to lose money all year round. Not to forget, outside of booking buildings WAY too big for TNA's attendance, they didn't properly advertise events and had a ridiculous payroll for their talent. ROH has been turning a profit for a while and have been building their attendance. Also, they have been playing it very safe and to get to the next level they have to take some risks. TNA was a company that tried to run before they could walk, ROH is walking just fine. There are ways to get to the next level without running a massively expensive venue you can't fill. Have ROH management come out and said they're making a profit, or are we just assuming they are like we did in the Silkin era?
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Post by Brian Suntan on Jun 23, 2018 5:14:19 GMT -5
But if that were to happen, sinclair may have to pay the piper and kiss their fox affiliation goodbye! Fox paid a BILLION dollars for Smackdown and if Sinclair owned Fox affiliates are preempting it, Fox may as well take the Fox affiliation to another station that isn't owned by Sinclair (There is a local CW affiliate in the Charleston WV market, WQCW that would be willing to take the Fox affiliation if Sinclair's preemption threat comes true) Yeah those contracts last 3 to 5 years, unless they are just about to run out, Fox can't do anything until the contract runs out I really know nothing, but I'd be shocked if there wasn't something in the contract about not pre-empting one of their biggest shows out of spite. Or that Sinclair would consider this enough of a hill to die on that they'd go to war with Fox.
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Post by honsou on Jun 23, 2018 5:29:55 GMT -5
There are rules about pre-empting sporting events due to the Heidi Bowl but that's specifically written into the contract between the network and the athletic governing body. Fox and WWE could have a similar deal already in place and if that's in place Sinclair would probably know they couldn't actually pre-empt the show. Though a deal like that would have weird interactions with sporting events that may be happening on the same night. We'll see in the final contract I suppose
Its likely that Sinclair wouldn't actually go this far though, as Smackdown will probably do pretty good ratings. It would only be in the realm of possibility if WWE tried to get ROH blackballed from every major arena similar to what it tried to do with UFC back in the early days
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Post by ianriccaboni on Jun 23, 2018 6:24:16 GMT -5
My favorite thing about this thread is we have official confirmation that Ring of Honor knows we exist. I was an early (2000!) reader of WrestleCrap.
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Post by corndog on Jun 23, 2018 11:32:09 GMT -5
Big difference between ROH doing one show that could lose money to TNA constantly doing stupid crap to lose money all year round. Not to forget, outside of booking buildings WAY too big for TNA's attendance, they didn't properly advertise events and had a ridiculous payroll for their talent. ROH has been turning a profit for a while and have been building their attendance. Also, they have been playing it very safe and to get to the next level they have to take some risks. TNA was a company that tried to run before they could walk, ROH is walking just fine. There are ways to get to the next level without running a massively expensive venue you can't fill. Have ROH management come out and said they're making a profit, or are we just assuming they are like we did in the Silkin era? Management has said they are in the black and have been for a few years. Koff replied to something stupid Dixie said on Twitter about ROH being "small time" and he has said it in an interview.
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Post by Facetious on Jun 23, 2018 11:36:39 GMT -5
Big difference between ROH doing one show that could lose money to TNA constantly doing stupid crap to lose money all year round. Not to forget, outside of booking buildings WAY too big for TNA's attendance, they didn't properly advertise events and had a ridiculous payroll for their talent. ROH has been turning a profit for a while and have been building their attendance. Also, they have been playing it very safe and to get to the next level they have to take some risks. TNA was a company that tried to run before they could walk, ROH is walking just fine. There are ways to get to the next level without running a massively expensive venue you can't fill. Have ROH management come out and said they're making a profit, or are we just assuming they are like we did in the Silkin era? While I have my doubts about them filling it, let's not pretend a Wrestlemania weekened show with LEGIT top stars from New Japan and CMLL wouldn't tick up interest especially with decent pricing.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 23, 2018 12:16:19 GMT -5
My favorite thing about this thread is we have official confirmation that Ring of Honor knows we exist. Of course he knows. He was around before the split from the Crap.
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Post by Lupin the Third on Jun 29, 2018 8:13:59 GMT -5
My favorite thing about this thread is we have official confirmation that Ring of Honor knows we exist. I'm waiting for the day when I get home and get superkicked by the Bucks, while Cody's eating a bowl of my cereal.
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Post by KofiMania on Jun 30, 2018 19:49:33 GMT -5
ROH is a weird promotion. They more or less still have an indie vibe to them but being owned by Sinclair would hardly equate to being an indie promotion. If TNA thought keeping 2000 era WCW alive was a good idea then ROH seems like the modern extension of what ECW would have become. Here's what I don't get about this right of first refusal thing. WWE isn't running MSG anytime around the WM season, so what exactly are they refusing? Isn't a right of first refusal in the event that someone wants to run a locale but someone has it locked down where they can run it first? Since WWE is running the Barclays Center that is a direct notice that they surrender their right of first refusal for that date. Maybe they have some lame little house show coming up early next year and there's a 90 day window involved? Either way this thing is going to court I would bet. WWE usually runs an MSG house show a few weeks before Mania.
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