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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Jun 21, 2018 19:36:55 GMT -5
I went to all three shows that ROH did at MCU Park and those shows barely drew fly's. It would be a very hard sell for them to convince anybody who runs that park that they could potentially draw on par with the WWE in their home market anymore. What? The 2015 show was the highest ROH attendance at that point ever, and that was running directly opposite of NXT Takeover Brooklyn. And it was in the middle of the summer, and one of the first times that people would be able to see NJPW guys live in America since they began their push. And they still had less in attendance than they would from filling the Grand Ballroom at Hammerstein. There is literally no reason for them to be running MCU Park for Wrestlemania weekend.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jun 21, 2018 19:47:17 GMT -5
Disney won't have anything to do with the WWE/FOX deal. Fox is keeping the local stations they own, the national broadcast channel (the thing WWE will be on), the Fox News Channels, their studio, and the national sports channels.
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Post by brown bricks on Jun 21, 2018 20:08:26 GMT -5
I would say that Sinclair vs. McMahon is the equivalent of Freddy vs Jason, but I would feel bad about that. Freddy Krueger and Jason Vorhees are MUCH more likable than Vince McMahon and Sinclair Broadcasting.
In all seriousness, I am *ahem* all in on McMahon taking on someone who is more powerful than himself.
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Jun 21, 2018 20:09:36 GMT -5
What? The 2015 show was the highest ROH attendance at that point ever, and that was running directly opposite of NXT Takeover Brooklyn. And it was in the middle of the summer, and one of the first times that people would be able to see NJPW guys live in America since they began their push. And they still had less in attendance than they would from filling the Grand Ballroom at Hammerstein. There is literally no reason for them to be running MCU Park for Wrestlemania weekend. And also, according to Wikipedia, that 2015 show drew 2000 people, which was about 500 less people then TNA drew to the park in 2013 and more then 3000 less people than TNA drew to the park in 2010. Another thing being conveniently ignored was the absolutely pitiful crowd ROH drew to their 2016 show there. If there were 500 people there I'd be amazed, and that card was loaded with major NJPW names and not running against a WWE show. If ROH seriously wants to prove they can compete on some level with the WWE in the NYC market then MCU Park is NOT the way to go.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Jun 21, 2018 20:25:57 GMT -5
People seem to not realize that without the NJPW talent RoH doesn’t draw shit. And even the show in Toronto last month with NJPW had empty seats.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jun 21, 2018 22:28:55 GMT -5
ROH has basically become a vessel for NJPW to get itself over in America. Or in another way they've become SMW or the USWA in the 90s when they could pop a crowd with WWF guest stars but with no WWF stars on the show the gates cratered. In that respect Vince managed to wreck whatever territories were left by actually helping them out.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jun 22, 2018 11:58:06 GMT -5
According to PWInsider, AAA still has a hold on two dates to run MSG, one in September and one later in the year that may get pushed back to 2019.
So it doesn't so much look like WWE trying to keep the building but just trying to f*** with ROH.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 84,599
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Post by chrom on Jun 22, 2018 13:29:17 GMT -5
According to PWInsider, AAA still has a hold on two dates to run MSG, one in September and one later in the year that may get pushed back to 2019. So it doesn't so much look like WWE trying to keep the building but just trying to f*** with ROH. I wonder how much Vince believes of his philosophy that your not suppose to hurt the other guy
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Post by ianriccaboni on Jun 22, 2018 13:38:56 GMT -5
People seem to not realize that without the NJPW talent RoH doesn’t draw shit. And even the show in Toronto last month with NJPW had empty seats. I love our partners and they help ROH at the gate, no doubt about it. Whether it is NJPW, CMLL, RevPro, or Stardom on the marquee with us, our partnerships give fans dream matches, feuds that span promotions, and help wrestling fans see all of their favorite worldwide stars in one place. But the above statement is factually inaccurate. Toronto was a sellout sellout, including standing room only. We were near Fire Marshall Capacity. Whether or not seats were visibly open on camera, that can be attributed to a few things: there are a few places in the building that are seats but are part of general admission and anyone can sit there. If folks choose to stand on the floor and watch, there is nothing we can really do about that. Secondly, in 2018 in Dallas, Columbus, Pittsburgh, NYC, and Atlanta, ROH sold out with no NJPW stars. Additionally, we had record crowds in Nashville and Concord (Charlotte) with no New Japan stars. I would anticipate those gates could have been even higher in larger buildings had we had the great stars of New Japan but the reality is we are running bigger buildings and getting bigger crowds then ever, right now. Additionally, our Baltimore Pay Per View next week features only two, ableit awesome, matches starring New Japan talent (LIJ vs. Kingdom, Lethal vs. KUSHIDA) and we have shattered that attendance mark, as well. Finally, last year's events in Milwaukee, Hopkins, Philadelphia (twice), Atlanta (twice), and others sold out quite easily with no New Japan stars on them, as well. New Japan, CMLL, RevPro and Stardom are incredible partners and have allowed us to seek bigger venues and venture into different markets, including running four countries last year and expanding our broadcasts into Canada and India, but I am not going to allow that kind of factual inaccuracy slide by on something I read. These numbers and attendances, I believe, have been published by Meltzer, Mike Johnson, and others and are easily publicly followed via the ticket websites as the tickets are on sale. Thank you for reading - I'm very easy to find to talk about anything like this if you want! Sincerely - Ian
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 13:39:51 GMT -5
The AAA date has to be for the Lucha World Cup only makes sense for it to be and is big enough to be something to that could be eye grabbing enough.
AAA LU IMPACT Maybe CMLL and lower end NJPW guys like bone soldier to partake as well
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Facetious
King Koopa
ADAM COLE BAYBAY
Posts: 11,658
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Post by Facetious on Jun 22, 2018 13:43:59 GMT -5
People seem to not realize that without the NJPW talent RoH doesn’t draw shit. And even the show in Toronto last month with NJPW had empty seats. The sad thing is ROH just refuses to try and make new stars. They just want Bullet Club and New Japan to help keep things afloat. I mean shit, I love Dalton Castle, but by the time he won the championship, I was more excited that Cody lost it than Dalton winning it. And since then, he's done jack shit.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jun 22, 2018 13:45:24 GMT -5
It really does bum me out that some people are treating WWE stunting an independent company's growth like it's a good thing, or even like it's amusing. Yeah, Vince sure "flexed on 'em", but it's bad for the business as a whole, believe that.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 22, 2018 14:34:26 GMT -5
While I hate that Vince/The WWE pulled this power play on ROH, they did them a favour as they're nowhere near the point they can fill an arena like MSG.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jun 22, 2018 14:40:10 GMT -5
While I hate that Vince/The WWE pulled this power play on ROH, they did them a favour as they're nowhere near the point they can fill an arena like MSG. Stop. It's not some "mercy" or "benevolence". It's not. He saw someone on "his turf"(that he hardly ever uses, but that's another matter), and proceeded to roll over on their necks to cut off even the possibility. There's no need to paint WWE as some sort of "noble demon" here. They did a bad thing, that's preventing the possibility of grown from a smaller entity in their world. It's a bad thing.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 84,599
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Post by chrom on Jun 22, 2018 14:47:41 GMT -5
People seem to not realize that without the NJPW talent RoH doesn’t draw shit. And even the show in Toronto last month with NJPW had empty seats. The sad thing is ROH just refuses to try and make new stars. They just want Bullet Club and New Japan to help keep things afloat. I mean shit, I love Dalton Castle, but by the time he won the championship, I was more excited that Cody lost it than Dalton winning it. And since then, he's done jack shit. Well every time ROH makes new talent and stars. HHH comes in and swoops them up and sends them to NXT. Steen, Cole, ReDragon, Strong and others are all homegrown ROH guys who've WWE has gone and taken and odds are Castle's next
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 22, 2018 15:16:48 GMT -5
ROH has basically become a vessel for NJPW to get itself over in America. Or in another way they've become SMW or the USWA in the 90s when they could pop a crowd with WWF guest stars but with no WWF stars on the show the gates cratered. In that respect Vince managed to wreck whatever territories were left by actually helping them out. To piggyback off Ian's post, that doesn't seem to be the case in terms of hard numbers, and speaking from my own anecdote I was at Final Battle a couple of years ago in the Hammerstein and it was packed with a card that only featured Liger and KUSHIDA as major players from NJPW (think Jay White might have been there on excursion only). There's no doubt that the NJPW partnership and Bullet Club branding has helped them, but they're still seemingly doing alright without a ton of help, though perhaps it varies by market.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Jun 22, 2018 16:22:08 GMT -5
People seem to not realize that without the NJPW talent RoH doesn’t draw shit. And even the show in Toronto last month with NJPW had empty seats. I love our partners and they help ROH at the gate, no doubt about it. Whether it is NJPW, CMLL, RevPro, or Stardom on the marquee with us, our partnerships give fans dream matches, feuds that span promotions, and help wrestling fans see all of their favorite worldwide stars in one place. But the above statement is factually inaccurate. Toronto was a sellout sellout, including standing room only. We were near Fire Marshall Capacity. Whether or not seats were visibly open on camera, that can be attributed to a few things: there are a few places in the building that are seats but are part of general admission and anyone can sit there. If folks choose to stand on the floor and watch, there is nothing we can really do about that. Secondly, in 2018 in Dallas, Columbus, Pittsburgh, NYC, and Atlanta, ROH sold out with no NJPW stars. Additionally, we had record crowds in Nashville and Concord (Charlotte) with no New Japan stars. I would anticipate those gates could have been even higher in larger buildings had we had the great stars of New Japan but the reality is we are running bigger buildings and getting bigger crowds then ever, right now. Additionally, our Baltimore Pay Per View next week features only two, ableit awesome, matches starring New Japan talent (LIJ vs. Kingdom, Lethal vs. KUSHIDA) and we have shattered that attendance mark, as well. Finally, last year's events in Milwaukee, Hopkins, Philadelphia (twice), Atlanta (twice), and others sold out quite easily with no New Japan stars on them, as well. New Japan, CMLL, RevPro and Stardom are incredible partners and have allowed us to seek bigger venues and venture into different markets, including running four countries last year and expanding our broadcasts into Canada and India, but I am not going to allow that kind of factual inaccuracy slide by on something I read. These numbers and attendances, I believe, have been published by Meltzer, Mike Johnson, and others and are easily publicly followed via the ticket websites as the tickets are on sale. Thank you for reading - I'm very easy to find to talk about anything like this if you want! Sincerely - Ian Lmao, like you know anything. Dumb internet fans act like they're on TV every week or something. But for real, thanks for stopping by Ian. ROH seems poised for great things in the next few years.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 22, 2018 16:30:54 GMT -5
While I hate that Vince/The WWE pulled this power play on ROH, they did them a favour as they're nowhere near the point they can fill an arena like MSG. Stop. It's not some "mercy" or "benevolence". It's not. He saw someone on "his turf"(that he hardly ever uses, but that's another matter), and proceeded to roll over on their necks to cut off even the possibility. There's no need to paint WWE as some sort of "noble demon" here. They did a bad thing, that's preventing the possibility of grown from a smaller entity in their world. It's a bad thing. Yeah, I never said it was intentional benevolence on the WWE's part, or even implied it was. It was a shitty thing to do, but it prevented ROH pissing away they they don't have on a super expensive show in an arena they have no chance of filling. Don't get me wrong, I want ROH to grow, I just don't want them to overextend themselves in the process, I grew up watching WCW do stupid things like that, TNA over the past decade and change so I don't want to see a well run company fall into the traps that killed those two.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Jun 22, 2018 16:39:14 GMT -5
So listening to MLW Radio yesterday, Court Baurer was talking pretty matter-of-factly about how Vince has a contract with MSG with "first right of refusal" as language in there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 16:48:07 GMT -5
It really does bum me out that some people are treating WWE stunting an independent company's growth like it's a good thing, or even like it's amusing. If ROH is still considered an independent promotion, then so was WCW when Turner Broadcasting owned and operated it.
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